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russian armor

Sdfksz 222 Revamp

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19 Jan 2016, 08:12 AM
#1
avatar of miragefla
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1262 | Subs: 14

If anyone's played my mod they know my opinion on the 222, but I'll throw it here as well.

Currently Ostheer is stuck into static play until T3 because any light armour they pull is immediately invalidated by the Allied light armour in the form of Stuarts, Quads, T-70s, AECs which arrive only a minute or so after unless you're bleeding the other side dry with sniper play, but that's another issue of snipers being too strong, yet a necessary crutch for Ostheer to compete in the infantry war against WFA/Brits. Furthermore, if against USF, the Captain alone negates effective usage of the car.

I think it'd be best if the 222 was revamped to be a more potent and expensive skirmisher scout rather than being a dirt cheap anti-scout car scout unit which is mediocre at harassing anything outside of units incapable of effectively harming light armour. This would give Ostheer possibly more breathing room and not be as locked into paks in the light vehicle phase, particularly on more open maps where the 222 can kite and chip away at light armour.

I do not think the 222 is fine at its current state. It's a cheap light vehicle whose role disappears after about a minute or so until you get spotting scopes for map hacks and it's only good at warding off the most basic of squads mid-late game. It can only fight scout cars effectively, or if you are microing like crazy and it's unsupported, the M15 AA HT. I don't care if its a scout car in real-life, the unit needs a more defined role. It's not exactly a good sniper hunter, or AI vehicle, or anti-light vehicle and has probably the least amount of shock value of any light vehicle for its timing aside from the elusive Greyhound which is due to its commander and a stat issue with its reload being wonky (2.8/4.2 what?).

Suggestions:

-Coaxial MG now has 10 degree traverse to the left, right, and up.
-Coaxial MG Reload from 6/6.5 to 4/4.5.
-2cm autocannon accuracy at far from 0.025 to 0.03
-Moving accuracy of the 2cm accuracy from 0.5 to 0.75
-Health from 240 to 280.
-Autocannon range from 40 to 45.
-Cost from 210mp/15fuel to 260mp/35fuel
-2cm autocannon has x9 accuracy against infantry (.57/.36/.27 vs inf)
-Acceleration from 2.4 to 2.8
-Armour from 9/4.5 to 12/6.
-Coaxial MG now gains accuracy bonuses with veterancy.
-222 autocannon can now attack ground.

Yes, I know these are rather big changes but it gives the 222 a defined role where it can harass other light vehicles, forcing them to close in to fight and lure them into other units. With more health, it's a little bit heavier to not be 2-3 shotted by 80-120 damage models allowing it to escape. Now it also has enough armour to not be warded off by small-arms from the front while modifications to the MG and autocannon allows it to be better at harassing infantry on the flanks and chase after them. At the same time, it's not dirt cheap enough to be a spam unit which is not ideal in CoH 2 anyways as you'll rarely be building multiple 222s. Furthermore, none of these are massive spikes in power so its effectiveness against things like the M20 and AA HTs won't be increasing aside from being able to engage a little bit earlier. And against M20, while it can engage it more efficiently, it's now more expensive as a response option.

Anyways feel free to argue and tell me why it's a bad idea, but I'm a total believer the 222 needs a better defined role which should be a light, ranged skirmisher scout which the game needs more of. Not more units with higher HP pools and more damage that are generally driving up to their targets and killing it.
19 Jan 2016, 08:46 AM
#2
avatar of Pancake Areolas

Posts: 230

Permanently Banned
I may have replied to this in a different thread.

But my opinion is that 45 range is too potent, and 280 health, and an acceleration buff may be too much or unnecessary. A damage increase of 20 to 25 on top of your other suggestions is my suggestion.
19 Jan 2016, 08:50 AM
#3
avatar of kitekaze

Posts: 376

After what scout car has done to UK, what kind of "defined" role do you want for scout car? Make USF Lieutenant Tier useless?

Some changes, I agree, is needed, like fixing coaxial mg(bug since coh1). But most of it are nonsense buff.
19 Jan 2016, 08:51 AM
#4
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15490 | Subs: 7

That would put it leages ahead of greyhound, which costs significantly more.
19 Jan 2016, 09:06 AM
#5
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4527

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jan 2016, 08:51 AMKatitof
That would put it leages ahead of greyhound, which costs significantly more.
more potent and expensive
it's now more expensive


Katitof reads only what Katitof wants to see.
19 Jan 2016, 09:06 AM
#6
avatar of pugzii

Posts: 513

I usually agree with alot of your posts but this one is terrible. This would leave USF LT Tier dead on arrival along with causing huge issues for soviets t1 and brits who don't want AEC.

Remember that vs like a luchs for example its worth teaching zookas etc because its a 70 fuel victory, but a 222 would seriously fuck everything and killing it would really not hamper an ost player at all.
19 Jan 2016, 09:10 AM
#7
avatar of miragefla
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1262 | Subs: 14

I may have replied to this in a different thread.

But my opinion is that 45 range is too potent, and 280 health, and an acceleration buff may be too much or unnecessary. A damage increase of 20 to 25 on top of your other suggestions is my suggestion.


25 Damage would then make it more potent vs LT teir but not vs anything else aside from the odd infantry hit. Even if it did, it's not enough to change how it works vs light tanks or anything outside the LT vehicles and M3 which I want to avoid. 45 Range gives it a unique thing of being able to damage light tank(ish) from afar without taking damage. It shouldn't be a unit fighting head-on against the other lights, but a skirmisher which it can't do as of now as it must get into their range to open fire with the 2cm.

After what scout car has done to UK, what kind of "defined" role do you want for scout car? Make USF Lieutenant Tier useless?

Some changes, I agree, is needed, like fixing coaxial mg(bug since coh1). But most of it are nonsense buff.


How would USF LT tier be useless? The vehicles still arrive earlier, have their utility, and combine well with the LT squad's shock value. Furthermore, the 222 is more expensive so Ost is investing more to counter the M20 rather than less. It's more than double the fuel of 2 scout cars.

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jan 2016, 08:51 AMKatitof
That would put it leages ahead of greyhound, which costs significantly more.


Greyhound needs its reload retuned to 3 flat, canister to go down in price to 40 since it's much less potent. Add a .50cal to make the Greyhound an aggressive scouting unit. Also add smoke.


Okay I think everyone forgot the price tag change as well. 260/35 vs the 210/15. That's a significant fuel investment early game. You lose the 222, it's going to hurt even more than losing a half-track. Furthermore, while yes there are possible issues, but I can't go on explaining every little detail and change needed like how UCs cost too much fuel and take too long to build, the PIAT having issues with light armour, LT tech being entirely dedicated towards AI, etc.

We can't look a the 222 in a vacuum, but we also can't say everything around the scout car is going to be static.
19 Jan 2016, 09:21 AM
#8
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

Overall I like the concept, however ahistorical it may be.

In terms of balance I think this wouldn't change too much about any matchup except for USF vs Ost; this thing reliable countering LT tier would make M20 rush even more of the meta than it already is, because M20 would have to kill snipers by 5:00 mark or it would be gg. This in turn lends itself to mines.

So tbh I think that it should recurve your changes, but come only with MG and have to pay 50 muni for autocannon.
19 Jan 2016, 09:23 AM
#9
avatar of miragefla
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1262 | Subs: 14

Overall I like the concept, however ahistorical it may be.

In terms of balance I think this wouldn't change too much about any matchup except for USF vs Ost; this thing reliable countering LT tier would make M20 rush even more of the meta than it already is, because M20 would have to kill snipers by 5:00 mark or it would be gg. This in turn lends itself to mines.

So tbh I think that it should recurve your changes, but come only with MG and have to pay 50 muni for autocannon.


Thing is that's the sniper being too potent vs USF which is a change needed of its own like higher received accuracy and cooldown/aim time always using the max at all ranges. Incendiary could also use a higher aim-time. Of course USF Vet/inf or M1919(prefeerably double M1919s turned to one m1919 only) need to be tuned then this needs to be tuned and that needs to be tuned, etc, etc.

I know there's a lot of stuff to add to the mix.

I wouldn't say it needs 50 munitions for the autocannon unless the price is adjusted because for 260mp/35fuel then you've got a slightly beefier 221 with the relative same damage output.
19 Jan 2016, 09:35 AM
#10
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

I agree about the sniper. I realize your mod changes (read: fixes, lol) the game so the application of one change is complicated to perceive properly, my bad.

On the upgrade, I think if it ever went that route 230/20 with 50 muni upgrade would work. (But not needed I realize now.)
19 Jan 2016, 09:44 AM
#11
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15490 | Subs: 7



Katitof reads only what Katitof wants to see.

Katitof reads and accounts everything(that means price increase part too) unless it was spawned by johhnyb, mycalliope, Myself or aaa.

It would still put it leages above Greyhound and it already beats greyhound for only a fraction of a cost.
19 Jan 2016, 09:55 AM
#12
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4527

I do not think the 222 is fine at its current state. It's a cheap light vehicle whose role disappears after about a minute or so until you get spotting scopes for map hacks and it's only good at warding off the most basic of squads mid-late game. It can only fight scout cars effectively, or if you are microing like crazy and it's unsupported, the M15 AA HT. I don't care if its a scout car in real-life, the unit needs a more defined role. It's not exactly a good sniper hunter, or AI vehicle, or anti-light vehicle and has probably the least amount of shock value of any light vehicle for its timing.


+1 miragefla. The 222 serves a role that isn't necessarily needed, while they have no light vehicles comparable to those fielded by other factions.
19 Jan 2016, 09:58 AM
#13
avatar of Carlos Danger

Posts: 362

Needs to be more durable and needs to be better against infantry. After that its effectiveness against vehicles can be evaluated.

Costs can, of course, be changed.
19 Jan 2016, 10:50 AM
#14
avatar of NEVEC

Posts: 708 | Subs: 1

222 supposed to dominate m3s and m20, not counter light vechiles and killing infantry like t70 does at once.
19 Jan 2016, 11:11 AM
#15
avatar of IronMedic

Posts: 318

More armour, more health, more firepower sounds like a SdKfz 234/1 to me. :drool:
19 Jan 2016, 11:11 AM
#16
avatar of WiFiDi
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3293

Changed title of thread at OPs request.
19 Jan 2016, 11:40 AM
#17
avatar of Bulgakov

Posts: 987

interesting ideas


To me it always seemed that the main problem is it takes damage from small arms while enemy light vehicles coming around the same time do not.

How about:

Scoutcar to T1, autocannon upgrade available when T2 teched
Hotchkiss at T2 as counter to allied light tanks



But as someone said, the US Lt tier would need a rework in this case or in the case of SC being buffed as per your suggestions.
19 Jan 2016, 11:46 AM
#18
avatar of sorryWTFisthis

Posts: 322

OST needs a light vehicle, not a more sloped light car.
19 Jan 2016, 11:53 AM
#19
avatar of r7Bashy

Posts: 45

For me the Scout car and now the half track both have paper thin armour making them fairly pointless and ineffective especially in 2v2

SOVIET have t70 and Quad

UKF Have AEC

OKW Have Luchs

US Have Quad and Stuart

Neither of the ostheer options can really be claimed as equivalent to these options.

19 Jan 2016, 11:58 AM
#20
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8599 | Subs: 1

My suggestion for the 222 is this:
1)Leave it as it is to be able to counter light vehicle play.
2) allow to be upgraded with more dedicated AT weapon for resources (MU? manpower/FU?)maybe locked behind T3 research. Weapon upgrade would provide HP armor as needed.
Easiest solution the hmg turret with the hmg42 replaced by Panzebuch, a historically correct solution...
Other weapons where also used but the will need a model to be built like the 2.8cm AT gun...
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