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Allied 1v1 Dominace

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3 Jan 2016, 18:17 PM
#1
avatar of VindicareX
Patrion 14

Posts: 312

I'd like to address to issue with Allied factions in 1v1 - particularly soviets and USF.

I wouldn't call them OP, per se, but they have noticeable advantages in the early game that can quickly allow them to snowball and heavily contain the germans from establishing any sort of foothold.

I'll quote myself from another post to explain:

Does no one feel like Allies' early game is too powerful? Seems like the majority of tourney games are won by Allies because their play style is easier (build a horde of units early game, dominate map, push momentum). I.e. Face roll. USF works almost entirely this way: strong early game but weaker late game which leads to a lot of games being decided in this first 10 min.
- Granted the advantage is small - I think balance is in a very good spot - but is exacerbated in high level play where the flow of resources can stack up quickly against you.
- I didn't see much British play in OCF and for good reason: it's like playing Germans! You're early game hangs on a razor's edge and you try to fortify to make it to the big guns. Why go through that when you have a strategy that basically guarantees 60-100% of map control as Soviets/USF.


It has always felt like Germans are on the back foot. One wrong move and your defensive line crumbles and you'll never get the map back since Germans are generally awful at assaulting positions. I mostly attribute this to map design and general army design:
German infantry tend to do better at long range and in cover
But Allied infantry have an advantage is most other scenarios (medium/short range, no squads in cover, assaulting positions). Because of this, small maps with lots of corners and shot blockers (most of the 1v1 map pool) generally give the allies an edge since it's very easy to run around with Riflemen/Cons and just charge any Grenadier you see.

Germans, on the other hand, rely extremely heavily on positioning. If you're MG is not far enough back but not far enough front, Grens not in cover, no AT gun at 8 min (to counter halftracks), tight spacing - whatever - there's all sorts of things you need to execute very well to stop the Allied assault. Why do you think Mechanized Assault Doctrine or Close Air support are so popular? It's because they cover the German weakness in teching very well. While their teching price is fine, it gets very hard to try to even get tech 3 as Ostheer because Germans are usually so fuel starved from low map control.


Germans play a lot like Space Marines from DOW2 (and if anyone played that game you would know SM were one of the weakest races throughout most of that games history) - they have a very powerful army when supporting each other, great late game units, but extremely weak at independent missions (Sending units solo) and mobility. This forces Germans to send 100% of units to a certain defensible sector of the map right off the bat or else risk losing all the map since your squads will generally lose to their Allied counterparts.

It's hardly surprising the more mobile and aggressive factions do better in a game where you must fight across the map to win instead of being able to hunker down in a base. It was like this in DOW2 (Where Eldar and Tyranids were the most competitive factions, both armies extremely mobile and cost effective) and it's like this in CoH2.

However, some maps work very well for Germans because they are big, open, and defensible (especially Langreskaya). Easy to spot enemy advances, dependable cutoff, "natural" VP, wide areas for MGs to take full advantage of their range. Most maps though have a lot of shot blockers (especially around critical cuttoff points) or bottlenecking points of advance that make it really hard to push out as Germans with your long range army.


TL, DR: Allies have early game advantage that puts the game in their initiative (a fact shown in their dominance in tournament games among high skilled players).
3 Jan 2016, 18:34 PM
#2
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

http://coh2chart.com/

dat allied dominance in 1s :romeoHype:
3 Jan 2016, 18:38 PM
#3
avatar of VindicareX
Patrion 14

Posts: 312

If you read my post, you see I was mostly referring to high level (more like top 20) play. IMO, anyone not top 50 is basically not high level. Even so, ladder rankings are not a perfect indicator of skill, as anyone who plays enough and is somewhat good can achieve a high rank.

This high level play applies to tournament play, where those advantages actually matter in even match ups.
3 Jan 2016, 19:08 PM
#5
avatar of The amazing Chandler

Posts: 1355

If they tone down the early game advantage for Allies (witch i am fine with) then they should also tone down the late game advantage for Axis.
3 Jan 2016, 19:24 PM
#6
avatar of VindicareX
Patrion 14

Posts: 312

If they tone down the early game advantage for Allies (witch i am fine with) then they should also tone down the late game advantage for Axis.


I agree, to maintain the general balance. I would like to see better allied late game (which Relic has already been improving, probably due to all the team game schmucks complaining).

I think they can also accomplish this with better map design
3 Jan 2016, 19:32 PM
#7
avatar of pugzii

Posts: 513

Is this post a troll?
3 Jan 2016, 19:42 PM
#8
avatar of Thunderhun

Posts: 1613

Don't fight fire with fire.
3 Jan 2016, 20:00 PM
#9
avatar of Grim

Posts: 1093

particularly soviets and USF.


*avoids the subject of UKF*

:thumbsup:
3 Jan 2016, 20:15 PM
#10
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

Ostheer with Prostruppen auto-wins against Soviets that do not open with conscript-spam.
3 Jan 2016, 20:17 PM
#11
avatar of Squeaky Door 96

Posts: 192

Permanently Banned
data says otherwise though..
3 Jan 2016, 21:03 PM
#12
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 710 | Subs: 2

Ostheer with Prostruppen auto-wins against Soviets that do not open with conscript-spam.


from what I remember Osttruppen get completely hardcountered by maxims
3 Jan 2016, 21:07 PM
#13
avatar of A big guy 4u

Posts: 168

Tell that to a US player who meets an early game Sturmpio spam.

Or to a soviet player who meets a MG spam, then builds maxims, only to be mortar spammed.


Data does not lie. Stop making up non-issues.
3 Jan 2016, 21:07 PM
#14
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

I agree that Soviets are OP, but at least the USF requires finesse. I've seen lots of very good players get swamped by the new OKW early as well.

In the end (top 20) it comes down maps, commanders, and half RNG, half who has a better strategy.
3 Jan 2016, 21:37 PM
#15
avatar of A big guy 4u

Posts: 168

I agree that Soviets are OP


The soviets are OP? Are you drunk?
3 Jan 2016, 21:53 PM
#16
avatar of VindicareX
Patrion 14

Posts: 312

I like how people think Im totally off base when I'm literally better at this game than 99% of the people here. LoL gg internet.
3 Jan 2016, 21:56 PM
#17
avatar of VindicareX
Patrion 14

Posts: 312

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jan 2016, 20:00 PMGrim


*avoids the subject of UKF*

:thumbsup:


UKF is radically different than USF and Sovs, so they aren't the topic of my post.
3 Jan 2016, 21:58 PM
#18
avatar of siuking666

Posts: 707

Tell that to a US player who meets an early game Sturmpio spam.

Or to a soviet player who meets a MG spam, then builds maxims, only to be mortar spammed.


Data does not lie. Stop making up non-issues.


Sturmpio spam easily shuts down by Rifleman in cover + 5 min M20. Free LT remember?

And how exactly MG42 spam is gonna win vs Soviet maxim spam? then calls in Shocks/Guards + 120mm?

Data does not lie, but also depends on sample size and sampling methods. The win ratio of Top 150 players do NOT only count those games vs top 150 players, which means it can be utter noobstomp/drops and means nothing to HIGH LEVEL balance. Basic statistics knowledge.

3 Jan 2016, 22:00 PM
#19
avatar of siuking666

Posts: 707

I like how people think Im totally off base when I'm literally better at this game than 99% of the people here. LoL gg internet.


I'm with you.
Noobs/4v4 warriors have no idea about real balance.

Compared to vCoH US Wehr matchup where Wehr Volks don't get completely walked over by Riflemen, wehr MG42 can stop blob reliably and rush a T3 Puma to hard counter allied infantry spam...CoH2 Ostheer is such a cripple.

Funny how Rifle/IS costs 28 mp, performance much better, have 2 weapons slots, while Gren costs 30 manpower and perform much worse in every possible matchup and allied f*ckboys call it fine.
3 Jan 2016, 22:16 PM
#20
avatar of Basti

Posts: 17

If you read my post, you see I was mostly referring to high level (more like top 20) play. IMO, anyone not top 50 is basically not high level. Even so, ladder rankings are not a perfect indicator of skill, as anyone who plays enough and is somewhat good can achieve a high rank.

This high level play applies to tournament play, where those advantages actually matter in even match ups.


You realize that the majority of players, so non-top 20 by your definition, face other problems?

Now, should relic make the game more enjoyable for 20 guys or several thousands...?
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