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Quick doctrine fixes (Soviets)

26 Dec 2015, 11:53 AM
#1
avatar of Superhet

Posts: 132

Many doctrines could be reworked to be more interesting but that would require more resources to test and implement. These quick fixes are for things that I would think most people agree have merit to them and can be put into the next patch. Ideally I would like to redesign the doctrines somewhat so that they fit their themes better and such, but I doubt that's realistic.

Guards Motor Coordination Tactics

Fine as is.


Guard Rifle Combined Arms Tactics

Hit the Dirt reduced from 2 CPs to 1 CP.
This is not a strong ability. Why does it come in at 2 CPs? it just makes your conscripts immobile in return for light cover and suppression immunity.

Conscript PPSH package reduced from 3 to 1 CPs.
First of all, you don't have the munitions to upgrade your army with PPSHs at this point anyway, especially not if you are throwing molotovs. But reducing it to 1CP means that if you do manage to perform well in the early game and have some spare munitions you are rewarded for that faster.


Shock Rifle Frontline Tactics

KV-8 reduced from 9 to 7 CPs.
By the time this tank comes out you are dealing with tanks, while it's meant to combat infantry and light vehicles. Reducing the CP cost does not increase its direct combat power but it does help the idea that Soviets are supposed to take the game to the Germans before the late game, not wait for it. If it proves to be too strong then a better idea than reverting its CP cost is to decrease its initial stats but give it bigger vet rewards.


Shock Motor Heavy Tactics

Armoured Vehicle Detection reduced from 4 to 2 CPs.
Why does this ability come in after vehicles have already started to make their impact?

Conscript Repair Kit reduced from 5 to 3 CPs.
This times the ability better with your own deployment of light vehicles, without reducing it all the way down to near no CPs and so risking undesirable effects on the early & team games.


NKVD Disruption Tactics

I'll make an exception to what I said in the introduction, because this doctrine is just too much of an ugly mess - something has to go. It's closest to an air support doctrine, but it also has Rapid Conscription, and neither of those things go together with its actual commander name. The things that need to go are Rapid Conscription and Sturmovik Attacks. Put PMD-6 Mines and Booby Traps in their place, which is far more "disruptive" and also gets those abilities into more than 1 doctrine each.


Soviet Reserve Army

PPSH Package reduced to 1 CP, Repair Kit reduced to 3 CP.

Rapid Conscription ?
I've honestly never used this ability. I even played several games because I wanted to try it but ended up never activating it. What do you guys who have actually used it say? is it fine or could it use a CP reduction?


Soviet Shock Army

Either PPSH Package or Shock Troops replaced with For Mother Russia. If PPSH Package is kept, it's reduced to 1 CP.
I used to play this doctrine a lot and the more I did, the less I could see why these two abilities were in the same doctrine. Why would I want to call in horribly expensive shock troops that don't benefit from the upgrades I paid manpower and fuel for if I'm already getting PPSH conscripts? and vice versa if I get shock troops but no conscripts. In either case there's a better doctrine to pick and using both is pointless. Imo Shock Troops should be the replaced ability mostly because countless doctrines have them already, and since conscripts are supposed to be the Soviet backbone.


Soviet Combined Arms Army

Fine as is.


Terror Tactics

KV-8 reduced from 9 to 7 CPs.


Conscript Support Tactics

PPSH Package reduced to 1 CP, Repair Kit reduced to 3 CP, Rapid Conscription ?


Mechanized Support Tactics

Fine as is.


Anti-Infantry Tactics

KV-8 reduced from 9 to 7 CPs.


Armoured Assault Tactics

Fine as is.


Advanced Warfare Tactics

PPSH Package reduced to 1 CP, Repair Kit reduced to 3 CP.


Partisan Tactics

Fine as is.


Soviet Industry

I don't know about this doctrine, because I've never used it and I don't know the values on the supply drop.


Defense Tactics

This is basically a T1 doctrine or with conscripts. The problem with this is that it doesn't come in a timely fashion to help you if you go T1, by the time you can start to call in the machine guns the early infantry fights are already decided and you want to get AT support (same reason why you don't go T1 and then wait to call in shocks). This would especially be the case if penals were a functioning unit. It doesn't provide anything to conscripts, making it questionable why you would pick this doctrine instead of just teching to T2 which coincidentally also gives you an AT gun that isn't a piece of sh!t. I'd say reduce the DSHK from 2 to 1 CPs. If you want to give this doctrine a unique theme, reduce it to 0 CPs so you can "defend" crucial buildings or positions ASAP but this is not necessary.


Urban Defense Tactics

Fine as is.


Counterattack Tactics

I've never thought that the KV-1 was worth calling in at 8 CPs unless I knew I was already winning and just needed something to clean up. But I think the hate would be too strong if it got reduced to 7 CPs because then people would maybe have to use actual anti-tank tactics against it by doing revolutionary stuff like placing mines, supporting their pak or microing their puma, so I'm not going to officially suggest it even though imo it should be.


Tank Hunter Tactics

Conscript PTRS Package reduced from 3 to 2 CPs.
What exactly is the point of this upgrade if it won't fill the gap between enemy vehicle and your own AT deployment? I don't need it to come 1 CP after whatever units I'm using have already had to either die to or destroy the scout car. Guards aren't 3 CPs so why is this?


Lend Lease Tactics

Supply Drop ?, Halftrack Assault Group reduced from 5 (lmao) to 3 CPs.
If the Industry Supply Drop is changed, this ability should either also be changed or be made into a separate instance that retains its current stats. The HT Group will probably be of questionable use even at 3 CPs, but at least it won't be a never seen laughing stock like it is now. It could probably be moved to 2 CPs and the Kraut mower (if it has that upgrade, never used this ability) upgradable only when you make T3 or T4 but again the hate might be too strong for that.




Now I'll await your I'm a moron/I'm a fanboy/I'm worse than Relic/I'm trying to ruin the game etc. what do you guys think?
26 Dec 2015, 11:56 AM
#2
avatar of Bananenheld

Posts: 1533 | Subs: 1

Change title to "quick soviet buffs" for clearity
26 Dec 2015, 11:57 AM
#3
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 1620 | Subs: 1

i expect soviet only from your playercard. unfortunately i cannot see it
26 Dec 2015, 12:09 PM
#4
avatar of AchtAchter

Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3

The KV8 is behind 9 cp because you SHOULD use T70, M5 & Su76 in mid game. Not save all your fuel and spam KV8 as soon the CP unlock comes.
26 Dec 2015, 12:09 PM
#5
avatar of Superhet

Posts: 132

i expect soviet only from your playercard. unfortunately i cannot see it


I got bored of playing Ostheer years ago when there were still only 2 factions because it was too easy so I started focusing on Soviets, then I took a break from the game while they fixed the balance and came back only recently. Now the Soviet vs Ostheer matchup is very balanced by comparison to earlier and needs no large adjustments imo. I have given reasons why my changes are not enormous buffs, such as that at 1 CP you barely have any munitions with which to upgrade for PPSHs anyway and you'd do so at the cost of using other abilities, which means that the change adds flexibility more so than being a straight buff.

Also FYI, this thread is intended to be the first of a series, that's why I put the faction name in a parenthesis. I posted the Soviets first because their changes are the most clear to me and they arguably depend more on their doctrines. The other factions could use changes too like the Ostheer relief infantry, UKF Valentine tank and so on. I just happened to post this one first.
26 Dec 2015, 13:14 PM
#6
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 107

Kv8 is fine at 9cp.
Ppsh would be ok at 2cp, too early at 1cp. Dshk should be 1cp.
pmd mines and tank traps should be 0cp like rifle defenses.
Hit the dirt is crap and should be 0cp. Script repair would be ok at 3cp, as would vehicle detection since neither have any game winning shock value.
The m5 guards calling could maybe be 4cp but lower then that wouldbe too much- the m5 isn't comparable to the 251 call in as it can reinforce and be upgraded allowing it to scale better


I agree with what you have to say for the most part as a concept, I just think it needs fine tuning.
26 Dec 2015, 13:23 PM
#7
avatar of Superhet

Posts: 132

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Dec 2015, 13:14 PMSerrith
Kv8 is fine at 9cp.
Ppsh would be ok at 2cp, too early at 1cp. Dshk should be 1cp.
pmd mines and tank traps should be 0cp like rifle defenses.
Hit the dirt is crap and should be 0cp. Script repair would be ok at 3cp, as would vehicle detection since neither have any game winning shock value.
The m5 guards calling could maybe be 4cp but lower then that wouldbe too much- the m5 isn't comparable to the 251 call in as it can reinforce and be upgraded allowing it to scale better


I agree with what you have to say for the most part as a concept, I just think it needs fine tuning.


Thanks for your reply. Yes, it's the concept which is important and the details will as ever be fine tuned in testing.
26 Dec 2015, 20:42 PM
#8
avatar of Alexv

Posts: 10

Re: Lend lease Supply drop - the main problem with this in games vs OKW is that only 1 out of 3 drops actually gets delivered. I use this doctrine pretty frequently nowadays (DShK gives at least a measure of control over all those volk hordes) and I had a couple of games where not a single drop made it through. Which is kinda frustrating, because it's not exactly cheap and has a cool down period despite the success or failure. IMO, it should have a guaranteed delivery rate of no less then 50%.
26 Dec 2015, 21:00 PM
#9
avatar of Plaguer

Posts: 498

Rapid Conscription (Blobification) as an ability is ok, using it is a small risk tho, because you might not benefit from it at all, pretty much nothing wrong with this ability and it comes at the right CP

PPSHs should come at 2 CPs instead of 3, them coming at 1 CP would be pretty much useless because you wouldn't have ammo to upgrade them anyways and this would cause an outrage with USF 1919LMGs coming at 3 points so all the USF fanboys would be saying that "If PPSHs and G43s come at 1cp, why doesn't 1919LMGs!?!?"

Cons Repair Kit is fine as it is, no need for CP reduction or anything
26 Dec 2015, 22:05 PM
#11
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3053 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Dec 2015, 21:00 PMPlaguer
Rapid Conscription (Blobification) as an ability is ok, using it is a small risk tho, because you might not benefit from it at all, pretty much nothing wrong with this ability and it comes at the right CP

You just gotta throw your units at the enemy in a manner that is vaguely retarded and nigh impossible for them to not beat.

The hard part is not entirely giving up map control doing it, so you gotta do what was mentioned while pressuring the enemy sufficiently they don't just take over the entire map because you tried to make 18 individual men to die.
26 Dec 2015, 22:17 PM
#12
avatar of nodickwilliams

Posts: 230

Permanently Banned
I think it would be cool if ppsh was non doc t3, and ppsh abilities in doctrines replaced with single dp28 upgrade for conscripts.

Conscript vet 3 would need a slight nerf though.
27 Dec 2015, 08:05 AM
#13
avatar of MATRAKA14

Posts: 118

The changes are a bit blind. But the mentioned commanders have problems and they need to be looked at.
27 Dec 2015, 08:26 AM
#14
avatar of TAKTCOM

Posts: 275 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Dec 2015, 13:14 PMSerrith
Ppsh would be ok at 2cp, too early at 1cp.

Why GW43 is OK on 1 CP and Ppsh on 1 CP is too early?
jump backJump back to quoted post26 Dec 2015, 13:14 PMSerrith

The m5 guards calling could maybe be 4cp but lower then that wouldbe too much- the m5 isn't comparable to the 251 call in as it can reinforce and be upgraded allowing it to scale better

Dev have another opinion
27 Dec 2015, 08:59 AM
#15
avatar of Waegukin

Posts: 609

Some of these are good, though most of your CP changes are waaaaay too early. KV-8 at 7 CP is freaking scary, it comes out when it does to make sure your opponent has tank support so it can't just YOLO to victory, as an example.

Also, just my personal preference, but Hit the Dirt should affect Penals and Guards as well as Cons and Industry should have its original bonuses (rebalanced to compensate for changes) and be tied to a truck placed on a fuel point.

27 Dec 2015, 09:20 AM
#16
avatar of MajorBloodnok
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 314

Posts: 10594 | Subs: 9

Moved to COH2 Gameplay
27 Dec 2015, 09:56 AM
#17
avatar of drChengele
Patrion 14

Posts: 638 | Subs: 1

KV8 at 7CP
Quick Relic, make this guy a balance designer. :snfCHVGame:
Hat
27 Dec 2015, 11:03 AM
#18
avatar of Hat

Posts: 166

Should probably give reasons for your ideas before proposing them.
Hat
27 Dec 2015, 11:04 AM
#19
avatar of Hat

Posts: 166

Rapid Conscription is garbage though, should definitely be replaced.

Since the doctrines with this ability are all about masses of infantry perhaps it could be a manpower from fuel/munitions?
27 Dec 2015, 23:31 PM
#20
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 107

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Dec 2015, 08:26 AMTAKTCOM

Why GW43 is OK on 1 CP and Ppsh on 1 CP is too early?

Dev have another opinion


For your first point, the g43 isn't as big an upgrade for grens as ppsh are for conscripts.

In regards to your second point it's true that tactical support gets an m5 but it does not come with elite assault troops like the Soviet one packaged into the deal. The ostheer callins are much better to compare to because ostheer tech pace is closer to soviets then usf is.
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