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OKW Panzerschreck

12 Dec 2015, 11:42 AM
#1
avatar of Gbpirate
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 1019

Played a few games with What Doth Life this evening, and I suggested to him an interesting proposition regarding the panzerschreck.

Doth Life said the Schreck's problem is its ubiquity on volksgrenadiers. I agree. It's the best handheld AT in the game, on a squad with still awesome veterancy and survivability (thanks to its 5-man size). What I thought of in the moment was something crazy: replace the panzerschreck with the panzerfaust. This wouldn't be the engine-disabling faust, and it may not even be the heat-seeking faust that grens/falls have, but it would work in a similar way. You click the button or hit the hotkey, select the vehicle, and then, boom, you fire at it. You do damage to the vehicle, but no engine damage occurs.

Let's say the faust is free; it is required that you get one truck up (like the current schreck) and maybe there's a small muni upgrade (like 10-20) and you gain the ability to faust vehicles. Perhaps, even, it could be a 60 muni upgrade but with a set number of shots (6 - 10m/faust). It doesn't matter, so long as its not too expensive but not too cheap either. The faust could do anywhere between 50 and 100 damage (100 being the default damage for all vehicle snares in coh2). Cool down of 10-15 seconds. Range of 20-25.

There are several advantages to this regarding both gameplay and historical accuracy:
1) Volks no longer lose 20% of their anti-infantry power due to a schreck
2) no more schreck blobs
3) reflects Wehrmacht in 1945: lots of panzerfausts
4) increased importance of combined arms
-Can't just spam volks and schrecks to counter armour; couple or three of these fausts +double raketenwerfer or a captured/commandeered AT gun to take out enemy armor.

Now, and obvious counter-argument is, "this costs too much muni in the long term". While that is certainly a fair argument, there are other ways of reflecting the 1945 German army besides a research penalty. The increased fuel costs of OKW late-game vehicles is a way of displaying the same effect. Instead of reducing income, the cost of things is increased. The panzerfaust was cheap. Even late in the war it was still produced in large numbers, as an individual could disable one of the seemingly endless horde of T-34s rolling towards Berlin.


The only conceivable issue this would present is with the game itself; is it possible for an ability that one selects a target to miss? I.e, is it possible to implement this ability without it being 100% chance to hit if the vehicle is within the arc when the button is clicked? Currently, fausts will hit 100% of the time (unless there's a bug) and it is essentially a homing missile; if the vehicle backs out, goes behind a rock, and is essentially not able to be shot at, the faust will still hit the vehicle.

Discuss.
12 Dec 2015, 11:53 AM
#2
avatar of newvan

Posts: 354

I thought about same thing too. Does OKW really need shreaks in curent situation at all, at any unit? There is AT gun and mines in TO, Puma in T2, Jagdpanzer and Panther in T3, there is AT for any period of game, you can replace armour much easier than before, add fausts (but I am for regular fausts, like ost) and there will be a lot of AT options. However it's radical changes and needs a lot of tests to see how it will work before make such decision, but I definitely would like to test it.
12 Dec 2015, 11:55 AM
#3
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

PanzerFaust for Volks, double schrecks for 120ammo for Obers.
12 Dec 2015, 12:21 PM
#4
avatar of Stafkeh
Patrion 14

Posts: 1006

I dont see why volks need any AT at all in the first place. With their increased ammo they can put more mines down. In the late game they have the best AT. Schrecks are just spammable and dont make room for other strats.

Why make a raketenwerfer if you an get schrecks? Same for the puma. Early game AT isntused at all because you can simply get schrecks.

My vote goes to delete the schreck-upgrade from volks and move it to another unit like Obersoldaten. Brits work out without snares to, and they dont have mines without any teching or a T0 AT gun.
12 Dec 2015, 12:35 PM
#5
avatar of G4bb4_G4nd4lf
Donator 33

Posts: 658

1. Redesign shrecks into snares.

> 30 ammo to fire
> same cooldown/range as PzFausts
> same pen/damage as normal shrecks

2. Lock them behind a global upgrade

> 125 MP + 15 fuel

3. Once you unlock them, one OKW unit will be able to use them (Obers, Sturms or Volks)

OKW doesn't really need regular shrecks. A shreck-faust-hybrid would be unique and fits to the OKW theme of being a late war army with advanced equipment.

EDIT: I'd vote for Volks because they actually have voice lines for firing shrecks. Obers don't AFAIK.
12 Dec 2015, 13:10 PM
#6
avatar of BIS-Commando

Posts: 137

Played a few games with What Doth Life this evening, and I suggested to him an interesting proposition regarding the panzerschreck.

Doth Life said the Schreck's problem is its ubiquity on volksgrenadiers. I agree. It's the best handheld AT in the game, on a squad with still awesome veterancy and survivability (thanks to its 5-man size). What I thought of in the moment was something crazy: replace the panzerschreck with the panzerfaust. This wouldn't be the engine-disabling faust, and it may not even be the heat-seeking faust that grens/falls have, but it would work in a similar way. You click the button or hit the hotkey, select the vehicle, and then, boom, you fire at it. You do damage to the vehicle, but no engine damage occurs.

Let's say the faust is free; it is required that you get one truck up (like the current schreck) and maybe there's a small muni upgrade (like 10-20) and you gain the ability to faust vehicles. Perhaps, even, it could be a 60 muni upgrade but with a set number of shots (6 - 10m/faust). It doesn't matter, so long as its not too expensive but not too cheap either. The faust could do anywhere between 50 and 100 damage (100 being the default damage for all vehicle snares in coh2). Cool down of 10-15 seconds. Range of 20-25.

There are several advantages to this regarding both gameplay and historical accuracy:
1) Volks no longer lose 20% of their anti-infantry power due to a schreck
2) no more schreck blobs
3) reflects Wehrmacht in 1945: lots of panzerfausts
4) increased importance of combined arms
-Can't just spam volks and schrecks to counter armour; couple or three of these fausts +double raketenwerfer or a captured/commandeered AT gun to take out enemy armor.

Now, and obvious counter-argument is, "this costs too much muni in the long term". While that is certainly a fair argument, there are other ways of reflecting the 1945 German army besides a research penalty. The increased fuel costs of OKW late-game vehicles is a way of displaying the same effect. Instead of reducing income, the cost of things is increased. The panzerfaust was cheap. Even late in the war it was still produced in large numbers, as an individual could disable one of the seemingly endless horde of T-34s rolling towards Berlin.


The only conceivable issue this would present is with the game itself; is it possible for an ability that one selects a target to miss? I.e, is it possible to implement this ability without it being 100% chance to hit if the vehicle is within the arc when the button is clicked? Currently, fausts will hit 100% of the time (unless there's a bug) and it is essentially a homing missile; if the vehicle backs out, goes behind a rock, and is essentially not able to be shot at, the faust will still hit the vehicle.

Discuss.


Yes, very good... or even a Panzerbüchse 39 upgrade to Volks that costs around 40-50 muni and a cost to research them (or to have one of the trucks setup).
12 Dec 2015, 14:26 PM
#7
avatar of Appleseed

Posts: 622

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2015, 12:21 PMStafkeh
I dont see why volks need any AT at all in the first place. With their increased ammo they can put more mines down. In the late game they have the best AT. Schrecks are just spammable and dont make room for other strats.

Why make a raketenwerfer if you an get schrecks? Same for the puma. Early game AT isntused at all because you can simply get schrecks.

My vote goes to delete the schreck-upgrade from volks and move it to another unit like Obersoldaten. Brits work out without snares to, and they dont have mines without any teching or a T0 AT gun.



OKW have no mine design only for vehicle, infantry will trigger it all the time.

Raketenwerfer is one of the worst AT gun in game, it got 1 shot wipe by any ally tank way too often

what is the best AT in late game OKW have? i have no idea..

puma is good and fast but it can be killed by small arms and HMGs, i don't see any ally light armor can be kill by HMGs O.o



12 Dec 2015, 14:30 PM
#8
avatar of [Warfarers]Primarch

Posts: 82

Pretty solid idea. I like it. Very fitting to the feel of the army, imo. A way of implementing the missable faust would be sorta like Tulip rockets but with a shorter range, I think?
12 Dec 2015, 15:07 PM
#9
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1801 | Subs: 1

I don't know why a people don't want PzB Rifle for Volks. If light armor is the reason Volks have Pzschreck, just give them AT rifle. Exact copy of PTRS with PzB model.
12 Dec 2015, 16:17 PM
#10
avatar of Nabarxos

Posts: 392




OKW have no mine design only for vehicle, infantry will trigger it all the time.

Raketenwerfer is one of the worst AT gun in game, it got 1 shot wipe by any ally tank way too often

what is the best AT in late game OKW have? i have no idea..

puma is good and fast but it can be killed by small arms and HMGs, i don't see any ally light armor can be kill by HMGs O.o





then your blind-_-

you have a default mine like other factions so whats the problem??

Raketenwerfer is one of the best AT guns in the game,if you want it to stay alive put it in a building or clock it,dont charge head on vehicles with it.

the best AT for OKW? oh i dont know maybe the jagdpanzer 4,panther,panzershreack,raketenwerfer,King tiger,puma.
all those units are effective for AT and if you want even more penetration bring a jagdtiger or go elite armor and use heat shells

Puma killed by HMG,how are you using it? cause to hit the puma and kill it with small arms and HMGs you must be really close to it,and if you arent aware all allied(and axis) vehicles die to the terminetor rounds of the HMG 42(very fast)

and its not like you will face crazy heavy tanks,and if you do you have the best AT in the game(jagdtiger top class TD)
12 Dec 2015, 17:01 PM
#11
avatar of Qbix

Posts: 254

Yeah, and you definitely are the first person ever to suggest it. Living under a rock must be comfy. In addition, you would have to balance the PFaust around the AT grenade from Panzerfüsiliers, which will lead to very bad results I guess.

Without the Schreck, your short range Raketenwerfer will be even worse. This may not be a problem for the better players, but the majority would succumb to early allied vehicles. In addition, specifically stating the PFaust should not have snare capabilities must be a bad joke, it should be the least one can expect from an ability with low damage and munitions costs... And please move along with real life WW2 production capability comparisons, this is a game.

No Schreck on OKW AT ALL is not the solution either.
12 Dec 2015, 17:36 PM
#12
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1841 | Subs: 1

Solid idea, I like it but maybe combined with moving Shreks to Strumpios. Every faction has handheld AT and OKW should have it in some fashion. I think SPs are better than Obers since Obers come so late and are so expensive already
12 Dec 2015, 17:36 PM
#13
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1841 | Subs: 1

Solid idea, I like it but maybe combined with moving Shreks to Strumpios. Every faction has handheld AT and OKW should have it in some fashion. I think SPs are better than Obers since Obers come so late and are so expensive already
12 Dec 2015, 17:42 PM
#14
avatar of Gbpirate
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 1019

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2015, 17:01 PMQbix
Yeah, and you definitely are the first person ever to suggest it. Living under a rock must be comfy. In addition, you would have to balance the PFaust around the AT grenade from Panzerfüsiliers, which will lead to very bad results I guess.

Without the Schreck, your short range Raketenwerfer will be even worse. This may not be a problem for the better players, but the majority would succumb to early allied vehicles. In addition, specifically stating the PFaust should not have snare capabilities must be a bad joke, it should be the least one can expect from an ability with low damage and munitions costs... And please move along with real life WW2 production capability comparisons, this is a game.

No Schreck on OKW AT ALL is not the solution either.



I appreciate the ad hominem argument; I really do!
Actually, I don't know if I'm the first person to suggest a non-crippling faust for the volksgrenadiers. How would the faust be balanced around the at grenade of the panzerfüsiliers? would the range need to be the same? Should both cripple engines? At ten muni for 50 damage, for example, I don't think that's unbalanced when comparing prices.
12 Dec 2015, 17:44 PM
#15
avatar of WhySooSerious

Posts: 1248

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2015, 12:21 PMStafkeh
I dont see why volks need any AT at all in the first place. With their increased ammo they can put more mines down. In the late game they have the best AT. Schrecks are just spammable and dont make room for other strats.

Why make a raketenwerfer if you an get schrecks? Same for the puma. Early game AT isntused at all because you can simply get schrecks.

My vote goes to delete the schreck-upgrade from volks and move it to another unit like Obersoldaten. Brits work out without snares to, and they dont have mines without any teching or a T0 AT gun.


Anyone who is going to depend on shrecks is going to need more than just about 3 volks. The 7 popcap change was good for OKW.
12 Dec 2015, 17:48 PM
#16
avatar of VenstreDjevel

Posts: 55

Totally reasonable and would lessen blobbing +1
12 Dec 2015, 19:15 PM
#17
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

I disagree with op, I think lack of snare is why OKW vehicles and elite troops are so effective.

My two cents:

What if Sturms lost ability to repair and got a Shrek upgrade, and Volks lost Shrek and got an upgrade that allowed them to repair vehicles? Then OKW would have to sacrifice presence to repair vehicles, plus pay munis for it, AND using lots of Shreks would be a risky proposition.

If having Sturms with sweepers and Shreks is too much, give Kubel an upgrade that lets it find mines.
12 Dec 2015, 21:12 PM
#18
avatar of nodickwilliams

Posts: 230

Permanently Banned
So can volks get some anti-infantry package to compensate? Volks still get rolled by riflemen and sections. You can't just nerf and then be like oh its fine now, because its not really OP.
12 Dec 2015, 21:37 PM
#19
avatar of Grim

Posts: 1033

So can volks get some anti-infantry package to compensate? Volks still get rolled by riflemen and sections. You can't just nerf and then be like oh its fine now, because its not really OP.


They get beaten by more expensive infantry? Most baffling.....if only the OKW had non-doc elite infantry.
12 Dec 2015, 21:52 PM
#20
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

My two cents:

What if Sturms lost ability to repair and got a Shrek upgrade, and Volks lost Shrek and got an upgrade that allowed them to repair vehicles? Then OKW would have to sacrifice presence to repair vehicles, plus pay munis for it, AND using lots of Shreks would be a risky proposition.


An engineering unit that doesn't engineer..? Are you trolling?
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