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russian armor

Remove Allied Grenade tech costs

27 Oct 2015, 14:39 PM
#41
avatar of d0ggY
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 823 | Subs: 3

Or how about we add tech costs for at least grenadier lmgs, volks shrecks ( MAYBE), instead? So there is at least a thought process behind them like teching molotovs, grenades, BARs rather than the brainless upgrades they actually are?

Why do Axis get essentially " free " upgrades like these when the Allied players are paying for them in extra MP/ Fuel.

It really makes no sense to me. Makes doctrines like CAS stronger than they need to be when there is no extra cost tied to upgrading LMG's


Ok momo, in a 1v1, the brit infantry, the soviet infantry, the usf infantry win against all axis infantry in early game.Even the light vehicles you call win against axis light vehicles (assuming m20 dude gets out of car and uses his zook). So if axis dont get any kinds of nades for free, you just overrun them. Simple as that, otherwise cover camping and it's for allies.
27 Oct 2015, 14:48 PM
#42
avatar of Shanka

Posts: 323

The only faction who could claim to get free nades for techingis brits, mills bomb suck ass and i've never seen a brit player teching them in the early-mid game

USF should not get free nades, if so, that would the end of mg; but free nades tech on brits seems a good idea, it can surely help brit vs building (Wasp die too fast to mg and bugged centaur and croco hits the field too late to help you win)
27 Oct 2015, 16:25 PM
#43
avatar of squippy

Posts: 484

All these upgrades are paid for, because they number among the abilities of the unit, and therefore determine the cost you pay when buying one. And again to reinforce. If you were to say, make Grens have to first buy an upgrade unlock before being able to do upgrades on the unit, then the price of Grens would have to be reduced.
27 Oct 2015, 16:29 PM
#44
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2015, 16:25 PMsquippy
All these upgrades are paid for, because they number among the abilities of the unit, and therefore determine the cost you pay when buying one. And again to reinforce. If you were to say, make Grens have to first buy an upgrade unlock before being able to do upgrades on the unit, then the price of Grens would have to be reduced.


That is one dumb argument right there.
Units are balanced on menpower vs menpower cost basis.

Upgrades enhance their role or change it.
Grens are balanced against all other infantry based on their stock out of the game performance.

You don't see conscripts being cheaper or stronger just because they have to buy AT nades and molos first.
27 Oct 2015, 16:38 PM
#45
avatar of squippy

Posts: 484

Well, yes you do. It's a standard and commonplace game mechanic: the capacity for upgrades is something that is factored into the base unit price. This is true across all sorts of games in all sorts of genres.

Frex, Elemental: Legendary Heroes has a unit designer that allows you to assemble units from a whole smorgasbord of abilities. Two of those abilities allow the unit to wear armour either up to chain mail, or plate mail. You have to pay for these abilities, but they do not actually give the unit that armour. You have to pay for the armour as well when you actually build one.

I assure you that is quite normal, and if Cons did not have the possibility of gaining access to Molotovs and AT grenades, they would indeed be cheaper than they are now.
27 Oct 2015, 16:47 PM
#46
avatar of vietnamabc

Posts: 1063

Just combined molo and AT nade into 1 upgrade like US nade upgrade and it's fine.
27 Oct 2015, 17:02 PM
#47
avatar of niutudis

Posts: 276

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2015, 00:35 AMProBro
... Master race OKW Volksgrenadier ...


:facepalm:

I never saw anything unfair in the grenade tech costs for allies, but I´ve seen a lot of babyrage about it on the steamforum by the usual usf-fanbois.

Axis can throw their munitions away with those grenades instead of using it on something more usefull... So what? Is that realy such a bad thing?
Imo because not everyone uses the grenades on allies they are much more effective - you dont expect grenades to be used in every game as axis so the first 1-2 grenades have a high potential to do a lot of damage to your earlygame.
When playing usf/brit or sov you pretty much wait for the axisplayer to use them- you dodge them and the axis just wasted munitions.
27 Oct 2015, 17:52 PM
#48
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
Lol introduce cheaper tech costs for ostheer down to allied levels and dual equipping and you've got a deal. I mean we gotta make everything the same right? Also don't give free squads for USF teching and make it so everyone has to build buildings with engineer units. Sounds good? no? Then fuck off.
27 Oct 2015, 17:59 PM
#49
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

Lol introduce cheaper tech costs for ostheer down to allied levels and dual equipping and you've got a deal. I mean we gotta make everything the same right? Also don't give free squads for USF teching and make it so everyone has to build buildings with engineer units. Sounds good? no? Then fuck off.


Lets start equalizing costs from T1 to T3.

...

Done! Relative costs to get P4 are about equal to T34 and sherman.
Everything above is a bonus you need to pay extra for.
27 Oct 2015, 18:00 PM
#50
avatar of NEVEC

Posts: 708 | Subs: 1

Considering allied teching is lower than axis, why should they get grenades right from the get go?


Okw full tech up is 80 fuel, 120 considering fuel penatly.
27 Oct 2015, 18:04 PM
#51
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2015, 17:59 PMKatitof


Lets start equalizing costs from T1 to T3.

...

Done! Relative costs to get P4 are about equal to T34 and sherman.
Everything above is a bonus you need to pay extra for.

If it means cheaper teching and dual equipping lets do it. Screw game balance.
27 Oct 2015, 18:11 PM
#52
avatar of Unshavenbackman

Posts: 680

This thread takes the cake for not understanding asymmetrical balance and faction flavour at all. Not to mention it's misleading. Brit mills bombs and Ruskie molotovs are crazy at the moment. No denying that. They need to be locked behind a tech, arguably so should anti-vehcile grenades for the USF (should be tied into the grenades tech).


+1
And as you say not only the op has a hard time understanding asymmetrical balance but the whole thread. For most it seems like chess is the role-model. White vs black without any diversity.
27 Oct 2015, 18:26 PM
#53
avatar of Rollo

Posts: 738

The only faction that shouldn't have to upgrade for grenades is brits, they are too manpower starved.

Americans get stock 5 man squads, AT grenades, doctrinal LMG's and flamers all MP free and BAR/Zook units through tech. Brits get two shitty howitzers and an 150mp and 25 fuel upgrade for grenades that doesn't even come with smoke like it's USF counterpart.

Don't even get me started on PIAT's :snfBarton:
27 Oct 2015, 20:26 PM
#54
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

Yeah, also remove free units from USF teching.
27 Oct 2015, 20:44 PM
#55
avatar of TaurusBully

Posts: 89

Yeah, also remove free units from USF teching.


This.

What a joke of a thread that does not understand asymetrical design.

Only good idea and that should be considered of all posts is the molo and at nade for SU being on one upgrade. I could agree with that.
Hat
27 Oct 2015, 23:31 PM
#56
avatar of Hat

Posts: 166



:facepalm:

I never saw anything unfair in the grenade tech costs for allies, but I´ve seen a lot of babyrage about it on the steamforum by the usual usf-fanbois.

Axis can throw their munitions away with those grenades instead of using it on something more usefull... So what? Is that realy such a bad thing?


You're basically wiping out allied HMG squads because of the pickup glitches. 30 ammo v Squad wipe.
27 Oct 2015, 23:53 PM
#57
avatar of medhood

Posts: 621

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2015, 18:26 PMRollo
The only faction that shouldn't have to upgrade for grenades is brits, they are too manpower starved.

Americans get stock 5 man squads, AT grenades, doctrinal LMG's and flamers all MP free and BAR/Zook units through tech. Brits get two shitty howitzers and an 150mp and 25 fuel upgrade for grenades that doesn't even come with smoke like it's USF counterpart.

Don't even get me started on PIAT's :snfBarton:

Nice signature you got there
28 Oct 2015, 00:08 AM
#58
avatar of The Big Red 1

Posts: 758

Yeah, also remove free units from USF teching.

u still gotta pay MP and FU for them.
28 Oct 2015, 00:13 AM
#59
avatar of Hiflex

Posts: 43



That would be fair, if BARs and nades would be unlocked if you teched to LT/CPT. but since we aren't in fairy tale land that isn't a valid counter argument. I really hope you aren't arguing for the sake of arguing in this context.

Next.

I always thought you were a guy of reason and also competent, but what I just read in this thread from you made my heart cry.
No seriously, give bars to rifles when you unlock the LT(but just 1 upgradeable per squad). But not nades. It would utterly destroy Ostheer in this current state of balance.(1v1/2v2)
28 Oct 2015, 00:55 AM
#60
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

Allow a Volks and Gren squad to combine and deploy a deadly Rifle Incendiary Ace grenade for 60 munitions.
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