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russian armor

grenadier/panzergrenadier lack of survivability

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10 Oct 2015, 09:39 AM
#1
avatar of Chet

Posts: 46

Grenadiers get destroyed by allied infantry upon their veterancy gain to the point where they simply put cannot compete. Panzergrenadiers can deal alot of damage, but still suffer from frequent squad wipes with their four man squad, generally both units lack the durability of their counterparts on the allied teams. Grenadiers in particular scale fairly poorly, at vet 3 having barely more survivability than at vet0. This is rather problematic, as in close games the rifleman and infantry section battles become uphill ones very quickly.

Even conscripts surpass grenadiers at vet 3 (especially with ppsh), having a squad that very rarely gets wiped out and is altogether a decent investment.

The stats from official forum (table is a bit cutoff on this forum looks like)

I wanted to compare the UKF's Infantry Sections to other infantry with roughly the same position in the other factions. Here are the stats:
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Stat Infantry Sections Grenadiers Osttruppen Obersoldaten Panzerfusilliers Riflemen Conscripts Penal Battalions
Squad Cost/Cost per Model 280/70 240/60 200/33.33 400/100 290/48.33 280/56 240/40 270/45
Reinforcement Cost/Time 35/7 30/6 ~16.6/2 40/12.5 24.16/4.8 28/5.6 20/4 22.5/4.5
Number of Models 4-5 4 6 4 6 5 6 6
Total Health 320 - 400 320 480 320 480 400 480 480
Received Accuracy 0.8 0.91 1.25 0.7 1 0.97 1.087 1
Effective Health 400 - 500 ~352 384 ~457 480 ~412 ~442 480
Final Received Accuracy (vet 2 IS, vet 4 Obers, vet 3 all others) 0.528 0.7007 0.89375 0.38527 0.77 ~0.56 (next patch: 0.5975) 0.6522 0.77
Final Effective Health ~606 - ~758 ~457 ~537 ~831 ~623 ~714 (next patch: ~669) ~736 ~623

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Please note: Infantry Sections have 30% longer cooldown and 50% longer reload out of cover. Osttruppen have three times the listed accuracy in cover.
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Stat Lee-Enfield Gren Kar98K Ost Kar98K Ober Kar98K PF Kar98K M1 Garand Conscript Mosin-Nagant SVT
Damage 16 16 8 16 10 8 16 8
Cooldown 0.375/0.6 0.75/1.25 0.75/1.25 0.75/1.25 0.75/1.25 0.5/1 1.25/1.75 0.5/1
Reload 1.25 1.5/2.6 1.5/2.6 1.5/2.6 1.5/2.6 2.1/2.8 2.4/3.4 2/3.5
Magazine 10 6/7 6/7 6/7 5/6 9/10 9/10 11
Accuracy (N/M/F) 0.598/0.564/0.529 0.748/0.661/0.598 0.3165/0.299/0.282 0.92/0.863/0.805 0.805/0.748/0.69 0.713/0.667/0.5175 0.541/0.495/0.334 0.69/0.46/0.288
Moving Acc/Cooldown Multiplier 0.25/1.5 0.5/1.5 0.25/1.5 0.5/1 0.5/1 0.6/1.25 0.5/1.5 0.5/0.5

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The health stats have a few oddities. Conscripts with veterancy end up tougher than Penal Battalions despite starting as the weaker squad while Osttruppen have much better health scaling than Grenadiers. Riflemen are mostly in line with the other "elite infantry" (IS, Obers, PF) in terms of toughness but cost significantly less to reinforce. Obersoldaten could definitely do with a reduction in their reinforcement time and Infantry Sections might need their vet 2 received accuracy bonus reduced slightly.

10 Oct 2015, 09:47 AM
#2
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Oct 2015, 09:39 AMChet
Grenadiers get destroyed by allied infantry upon their veterancy gain to the point where they simply put cannot compete.


And that is why they have this LMG upgrade there.
Up until vet changes they were superior infantry in cost efficiency for similar or lower cost.

Not really sure why you've copied weapon stats here as well since they tell nothing as there is no DPS value and not all DPS relevant stats are displayed-aka they will be confusing for anyone who doesn't know how do they work.
10 Oct 2015, 10:09 AM
#3
avatar of Chet

Posts: 46

Lmg can be a sunk muni cost often times due to the tendency for the squad to get wiped.

The lack of survivability hinders flanks due to a likely squad wipe upon retreat with the terrible retreat paths that plague the game.

Osttruppen become more durable than grenadiers, which is rather nonsensical.
10 Oct 2015, 11:48 AM
#4
avatar of atouba

Posts: 482

Considering Ost have a very expensive T4 tech cost, but nothing rewards, would it be ok if giving a grenadier 5-men squard upgrade after BP3 tech? It will give grenadier a better late game durability, also make the BP3 more interesting.
10 Oct 2015, 11:54 AM
#5
avatar of dasheepeh

Posts: 2115 | Subs: 1

i kinda agree that ost infantry falls behind when it comes to survivability... the same happens with volks.

its a tough subject to discuss tho, because its very easy to mess the balance up
10 Oct 2015, 12:08 PM
#6
avatar of Dr. Green Thumb

Posts: 132

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Oct 2015, 11:48 AMatouba
Considering Ost have a very expensive T4 tech cost, but nothing rewards, would it be ok if giving a grenadier 5-men squard upgrade after BP3 tech? It will give grenadier a better late game durability, also make the BP3 more interesting.


You're thinking of the wrong osttruppen. Not OWK, OST 6 man ost.
10 Oct 2015, 12:08 PM
#7
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

Grenadiers already get huge vet2 and vet3 bonusses. They are not very durable but if you keep them healed and retreat soon enough with secured retreat path (as you do with every other faction) they wont get wiped and thus will make it to those great bonusses making them twice the worth of vet 0 squads.

As for ostruppen: they are more durable because that is exactly what they are for, they are meatshields, it would be strange if a meatshield unit was less durable than standard unit, nobody would build ostruppen if that was the case.
10 Oct 2015, 13:15 PM
#8
avatar of OuTLaWSTaR
Donator 11

Posts: 453

I agree Chet, Ostheer grens need some love. They haven't had a buff in over a year and a half o_O
10 Oct 2015, 13:20 PM
#9
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

I agree Chet, Ostheer grens need some love. They haven't had a buff in over a year and a half o_O

Why would that be... oh I know, because they didn't needed any, being top of the food chain in cost effectiveness since march deployment patch.
10 Oct 2015, 13:27 PM
#10
avatar of FichtenMoped
Editor in Chief Badge
Patrion 310

Posts: 4785 | Subs: 3

The only Grens in need of love are Assault Grens :)
10 Oct 2015, 13:34 PM
#11
avatar of cr4wler

Posts: 1164

i kinda agree that ost infantry falls behind when it comes to survivability... the same happens with volks.

its a tough subject to discuss tho, because its very easy to mess the balance up


pretty much this... late game grens are cannon fodder, no matter the veterancy. since they are decent in early game (when allied vet is not yet a factor), the only imaginable buffs would have to be to their late vet (2, probably 3 though). with almost all stock infantry of the allied factions outperforming grens by a big margin, and ostheer generally having problems to wipe units effectively, i doubt that a vet 3 buff to grens would do a lot of harm, especially if it's not too strong.
10 Oct 2015, 13:36 PM
#12
avatar of FichtenMoped
Editor in Chief Badge
Patrion 310

Posts: 4785 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Oct 2015, 13:34 PMcr4wler


pretty much this... late game grens are cannon fodder, no matter the veterancy. since they are decent in early game (when allied vet is not yet a factor), the only imaginable buffs would have to be to their late vet (2, probably 3 though). with almost all stock infantry of the allied factions outperforming grens by a big margin, and ostheer generally having problems to wipe units effectively, i doubt that a vet 3 buff to grens would do a lot of harm, especially if it's not too strong.


But then yet again Elite Troops
10 Oct 2015, 13:52 PM
#13
avatar of cr4wler

Posts: 1164



But then yet again Elite Troops


...or rifle company. thanks for reminding me how "balanced" p2w commanders are.
10 Oct 2015, 13:56 PM
#14
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1



You're thinking of the wrong osttruppen. Not OWK, OST 6 man ost.

Actually, I think they were referring to the Wehrmacht faction by the name of Ostheer.

Which isn't the official name of it, but it should be.
10 Oct 2015, 14:03 PM
#15
avatar of AngryKitten465

Posts: 473

Permanently Banned
Grens could do with a 5th man, but a little ( A LITTLE BIT YES READ LITTLE) bit of extra survivability at vet 3 would do more good I think.

As for Panzergrendiers, I don't know what to do with them. They need some more survivabilty at vet 0, they drop a model so quick it isn't even funny. Remember, at vet 3 they are pretty much terminators.
10 Oct 2015, 14:06 PM
#16
avatar of FichtenMoped
Editor in Chief Badge
Patrion 310

Posts: 4785 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Oct 2015, 13:52 PMcr4wler


...or rifle company. thanks for reminding me how "balanced" p2w commanders are.


The issue I was adressing was the payed Vet from Elite Troops
10 Oct 2015, 14:12 PM
#17
avatar of The_rEd_bEar

Posts: 760

5 man grens and pgre s will need a dps nerf let already have some of the best infantry in the game
10 Oct 2015, 14:16 PM
#18
avatar of cr4wler

Posts: 1164



The issue I was adressing was the payed Vet from Elite Troops


just like purchased vet from rifle company, which doesn't cost any fuel and doesn't delay your tech.
10 Oct 2015, 14:18 PM
#19
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Oct 2015, 14:16 PMcr4wler


just like purchased vet from rifle company, which doesn't cost any fuel and doesn't delay your tech.

And doesn't give you anything else then the ability to use rifle at nade as opposed to ost one getting you to vet3.
10 Oct 2015, 14:18 PM
#20
avatar of Rollo

Posts: 738

I don't see the problem with Panzergrens, they feel just right imo.

G43's could use a buff, that's about it.
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