Login

russian armor

Riflemen Vet 3

17 Aug 2015, 11:40 AM
#41
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 665

People the problem is not the vet. the vet is only slightly worse then the of the soviets or ost. The problem is the main upgrade: the BAR. it is only slightly better then the g43 and has no benefits of interrogation or increased los. if you reduce the bar cost to 30 it allows the usf infantry to be what they are supposed to be: mobile with lots of firepower.
17 Aug 2015, 13:19 PM
#42
avatar of Blalord

Posts: 742 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Aug 2015, 11:40 AMZyllen
People the problem is not the vet. the vet is only slightly worse then the of the soviets or ost. The problem is the main upgrade: the BAR. it is only slightly better then the g43 and has no benefits of interrogation or increased los. if you reduce the bar cost to 30 it allows the usf infantry to be what they are supposed to be: mobile with lots of firepower.


Cause the game really need 4X double rifle bars in 5 min am i right ?
17 Aug 2015, 14:13 PM
#43
avatar of Rollo

Posts: 738

If rifles were so bad you wouldn't see USF leading the win rates after soviets, all these suggestions for 6 man squads, lower reinforce and extra accuracy are ridiculous.

Could you imagine dealing with 6 man flamer rifles on semois? Or 6 man def stance LMG rifles on crossing? it's already bad enough as is.
17 Aug 2015, 14:40 PM
#44
avatar of sherlock
Patrion 14

Posts: 550 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Aug 2015, 14:13 PMRollo
If rifles were so bad you wouldn't see USF leading the win rates after soviets, all these suggestions for 6 man squads, lower reinforce and extra accuracy are ridiculous.

Could you imagine dealing with 6 man flamer rifles on semois? Or 6 man def stance LMG rifles on crossing? it's already bad enough as is.


If you look on coh2charts again now, you'll find that the situation is reversed again for 1v1.

Two things are important to keep in mind when looking at these statistics:

1) For the top 200 the ratios can be volatile and can change drastically within days.

2) The sample size is important, because it corrects more for outliners.

So if you were referring to 2v2 you should take a look at how many games were played as USF and you'll find that the amount of games wasn't even half of how many games were played as Soviets. This allows for more extreme values - for better (in this case) or worse.
17 Aug 2015, 14:42 PM
#45
avatar of DietBrownie

Posts: 308

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Aug 2015, 14:13 PMRollo
If rifles were so bad you wouldn't see USF leading the win rates after soviets, all these suggestions for 6 man squads, lower reinforce and extra accuracy are ridiculous.

Could you imagine dealing with 6 man flamer rifles on semois? Or 6 man def stance LMG rifles on crossing? it's already bad enough as is.


USF leading the win rates? Where did you get that info from? It's inevitable that defensive stance will get nerfed either way. Flamethrowers on riflemen are very map dependent and seimos is only one of the few maps that consists of wooden buildings. Most people usually equip two bars, but if a map has a lot of buildings then people prefer the flamethrower. The Flamethower is balanced.
17 Aug 2015, 14:44 PM
#46
avatar of DietBrownie

Posts: 308

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Aug 2015, 13:19 PMBlalord


Cause the game really need 4X double rifle bars in 5 min am i right ?


This. ^ In coh1 though, all riflemen would be equip with bars if you rushed the upgrade; you could've easily gotten it under 5 minutes. But in that game volks had a chance to defeat bare riflemen while in this game they're dpsmonsters from the start.
17 Aug 2015, 14:48 PM
#47
avatar of Blalord

Posts: 742 | Subs: 1



This. ^ In coh1 though, all riflemen would be equip with bars if you rushed the upgrade; you could've easily gotten it under 5 minutes. But in that game volks had a chance to defeat bare riflemen while in this game they're dpsmonsters from the start.


Coh1 and Coh2 are so different games, that i dont even compare :)
17 Aug 2015, 14:55 PM
#48
avatar of Stafkeh
Patrion 14

Posts: 1006

I agree with Soorioos, in my eyes vet exp could be more for all units.
17 Aug 2015, 15:22 PM
#49
avatar of Rollo

Posts: 738



If you look on coh2charts again now, you'll find that the situation is reversed again for 1v1.

Two things are important to keep in mind when looking at these statistics:

1) For the top 200 the ratios can be volatile and can change drastically within days.

2) The sample size is important, because it corrects more for outliners.


If you take one look at coh2 charts again you will see USF have consistently had a higher win rate than both Axis factions before and after the patch, USF were OP last patch and now they have seen balance changes people are crying out USF are useless even though they are still ahead of both axis factions.

I don't think it's any shock that americans are the least played faction in a WW2 game, people prefer axis or something different (Soviets, brits etc)



USF leading the win rates? Where did you get that info from? It's inevitable that defensive stance will get nerfed either way. Flamethrowers on riflemen are very map dependent and seimos is only one of the few maps that consists of wooden buildings. Most people usually equip two bars, but if a map has a lot of buildings then people prefer the flamethrower. The Flamethower is balanced.


http://coh2chart.com/

Cold hard statistics, this kills the burger
17 Aug 2015, 15:32 PM
#50
avatar of CookiezNcreem
Donator 11

Posts: 3040 | Subs: 14

That awkward moment when this doesn't consider the fact that half the top 200 is inactive and that most games are stomps vs non top 200.

Or could very well be from 5-6 different top players vs some scrubs.
17 Aug 2015, 15:58 PM
#51
avatar of DietBrownie

Posts: 308

That awkward moment when this doesn't consider the fact that half the top 200 is inactive and that most games are stomps vs non top 200.

Or could very well be from 5-6 different top players vs some scrubs.


These statistics only come from players who are over rank 201...
17 Aug 2015, 16:02 PM
#52
avatar of DietBrownie

Posts: 308

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Aug 2015, 15:22 PMRollo


If you take one look at coh2 charts again you will see USF have consistently had a higher win rate than both Axis factions before and after the patch, USF were OP last patch and now they have seen balance changes people are crying out USF are useless even though they are still ahead of both axis factions.

I don't think it's any shock that americans are the least played faction in a WW2 game, people prefer axis or something different (Soviets, brits etc)



http://coh2chart.com/

Cold hard statistics, this kills the burger


Hey Champ, USF is in last place the first week, but not in the 2nd week. The Line Graph depicts USF being last place. If anything this graph depicts that the other factions are better because they are.
17 Aug 2015, 16:47 PM
#53
avatar of sherlock
Patrion 14

Posts: 550 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Aug 2015, 15:22 PMRollo


If you take one look at coh2 charts again you will see USF have consistently had a higher win rate than both Axis factions before and after the patch, USF were OP last patch and now they have seen balance changes people are crying out USF are useless even though they are still ahead of both axis factions.

I don't think it's any shock that americans are the least played faction in a WW2 game, people prefer axis or something different (Soviets, brits etc)


I wasnn't commenting on what is stronger/weaker, I provided some perspective at how to look at the presented data ;). What you do with it is up to you.

Your claim is false for 2v2 where Ost has outperformed USF (let me reiterate: this isn't a statement about balance it's just the results on coh2charts).

If you take a closer look at the results at coh2 charts you'll also find that the results for "this week" do not refer to the past 7 days but really to 1 day at the moment, which is again highly volatile.

Last but not least, what faction is most played and the reason you present for it is very subjective and there are strong indicators (also visible on coh2 charts) that ingame performance correlates with how much the faction is played. It is pretty obvious for OKW. This is also more in line with what we'd expect from a rational actor.
17 Aug 2015, 18:38 PM
#54
avatar of Chiro
Donator 11

Posts: 90

First please excuse my English I'm not a native speaker and rarely write anything in English.
I rarely play 1 vs 1 (still in placement with all factions)
I mostly play 2 vs 2 as OKW with a OST mate so this comes from the "enemies" perspective and observation.
I almost never play 3 vs 3 or even 4 vs 4

In my experience USF struggles most with the following points:

US vs OKW high vet elite inf and vet 3 lmg grens (the mp bleed from vet 4 obers is crazy)
counter:
-rng from howitzer
-tank (if the enemy does not have good at)
: both are not reliable

US vs well armoured tanks if they can't use Jacksons (vet 2 ostP4, okwP4 and everything bigger)
- pak is too weak (see below)
- bazooka blob is stupid
- mines need m20

On the other hand especially OKW struggles against US in the early game.
Only so that it outright murders everything in the lategame except for "defensive stance rifles", airborne and priest

OST early game got major buffs with the stronger mg, increased starting mp and pio sight range and the 222
USA got cheaper tech for captain and got "locked" out of lieutenant tier thanks to 222 and buffed captain

I think USA lost it's edge against OST in the early game while getting nothing in return for the late game (2 vs 2 experience).


USA should be toned down in the early game and buffed in the lategame (USA is very good in 1 on 1 but weak in bigger games)

Early game nerfs:?
less/different dps for rifles?
-rifles vs grens: loose at distance, mid distance slightly in favour of rifles, in close range rifles win decisively

-rifles vs volks: win slightly at distance, win decisively at midrange, ...
-rifles vs sturms: win decisively at distance, mid range ??, close range is sturms playground
-rifles vs ost-pio: annihilate at distance, win decisively at midrange, slightly in favour of pios in close range, pios annihilate rifles point blank

make teching more expensive?

I certainly lack experience to say fixed values or distances, that's just how I think the early game engagements should work. (inspired by coh1)
I also know that USA needs a major overhaul to fix early/late-game power difference.




Possible lategame buffs:

-Supply depot(lowers upkeep) with each unlocked tier?
-"US industry" - lowers price (and maybe popcap) of vehicles the more you produce?
-m5 pak upgrade (global or per unit, slower rate of fire much more pen, damage increase?)
-Buff major abilities, arty and recon run
-officers get more useful abilities that don't encourage blobbing
-bars ignore 10% damage reduction from green cover due to their high calibre or better pen? (unrealistic if only bars get this but who cares - balance >> realism)

-advance infantry training for X mp : reduces received accuracy for all inf squads


Alive officer or tier purchased:
lieutenant: faster cap-speed/ sight-range +5 for all units?
captain: faster build-speed/restock/cheaper restock??
major: cheaper abilities(nades,bars,smoke...)/fix resource income?
all: damage buff/increase max popcap


You can get very creative with tech/officer buffs
but knowing relic you will probably loose those buffs the moment the officer model dies and restocking won't work (rifles recon ability ...)
so maybe it should be bound to the tier


Summery:
I tried to let out commander specific units and abilities and I also don't propose this as a new commander. Commander shouldn't be an essential choice but enable different tactics.
!!!All stock armies should be sufficient designed!!!

I don't think all of the proposed changes should be implemented those are just suggestions.



And buffing rifles alone would not help USA, it would restrict tactics and force the US player to spam rifles -> boring meta
(we know Relic thinks that everything is fine as long as a faction has ~50% winrate even if the are force into a single doctrine/tactic)

those changes above are still rather boring but are more realistic knowing relics enthusiasm to improve their game and implement bigger balance changes (although with the arrival of the brits a ray of hope is shining down on the coh 2 community)

So below are more radical suggestions to diversify gameplay and increase the amount of possible tactics (as well as cheap prejudices)

- Increase RET price and give them good long range dps but weak close range
- Nerf Rifles long range damage - buff mid/close range damage
- Captain needs lieutenant (adjust price) (Okw needs both trucks for T4?)
- 50cal ignores green cover damage reduction?
- m20 can be upgraded to greyhound if recon doc
- M5-upgrade for M1-pak
- some quick to deploy and move indirect fire unit (NDA)
- fighting position can be upgraded to flak after captain is unlocked
- Shermans can be upgraded to jumbos or if Inf-Company to Easy eight
- first vet 3 rifle squad transforms into ranger gaining a REC accuracy buff and passive heal or something else (If they die another squad can be promoted for X mp/ammo)

- major comes with a typical Uncle Sam outfit
- Vet 1 RET can place stun/suppression mines : rather cheap and suppress in a rather big area
-- aka FOB (F**k OKW BLOB)
-- special: still explode when detected like demos but deal very low damage, can be targeted with rifles, sweeper squads don't trigger

- Ambulance 3 different upgrades:
-- Speed Upgrade: (the ambulance driver don't care about wounded soldiers in his truck any more)
-- Drug Mobile: Buff after healing activates with the first order (passive sprint for x seconds would be cool)

-- Ambulance can be upgraded to an armoured version to M3 armor level and gains infantry crush - those bloody skins do have a history!!

- Officer Squads gain unique Weapon upgrades or abilities
-- Storm garrisoned building for lieutenant - enters building and they fight in very close range without cover (bad idea vs sturms, good vs mgs) maybe op!
-- Alternative lieutenant decrease set-up/tear-down time and increase movement speed of weapon crews
-- White phosphor rocket for captain
-- Uncle Sam needs you for major - instant restock all Inf squads in range if restock is possible for the unit (ambulance,ht,hq)
--- normal price for each restocked model + 50 ammo or so
--- long cooldown or Major/Major squad needs a kill


tl;dr don't make USF even more boring with buffing rifles



18 Aug 2015, 03:46 AM
#55
avatar of The Big Red 1

Posts: 758

if relic can scale riflemen well into the late game thats fine by me
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest
World Champ '19 - Semi-finals

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • Soviets flag Lucky - Cable Sup-port
  • Soviets flag T.R. Olvadi
  • Ostheer flag ZodiAK!
  • Oberkommando West flag CrossFire
uploaded by Olvadi

Board Info

316 users are online: 7 members and 309 guests
Vuther, Smiling Tiger, serg_codmod, elchino7, Sander93, SeductiveCardbordBox, Mr Carmine
236 posts in the last 24h
1560 posts in the last week
7439 posts in the last month
Registered members: 64632
Welcome our newest member, XARDAS
Most online: 918 users on 27 Oct 2019, 01:03 AM