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Obersoldaten UP

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4 Aug 2015, 08:40 AM
#81
avatar of LemonJuice

Posts: 1144 | Subs: 7

how can u say rely on falls or jaegers when niether of those squads are nearly as good as upgraded obers? jaegers dont have the ability to laser down full health models, they have to rely on whittling down hp and then hoping the scoped g43 targets the low hp model. falls have more firepower but they suffer HEAVILY from being a 4 man squad with weak defensive modifiers at vet 0 making them very susceptible to bleed.

obers on the other hand have godlike recieved accuracy, can always engage at max range, the majority of the firepower is packed into one platform (lmg) so they laser down models quickly, have the best infantry vet in the game, and are also nondoctrinal. just because they arent the terminators they were before doesnt mean they are underpowered now. you should still easily be getting quite a few kills with these guys thanks to the fact theyre THE BEST long range infantry in the game.
4 Aug 2015, 08:48 AM
#82
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post4 Aug 2015, 08:30 AMCorsin


Squad wipes are not exclusive to obers, Happens to all infantry especially the common 4 man axis squads...

The problem is Obers/Falshims are a massive amount of MP to be 1 shot.


And OKW dont float a massive ammount of MP, it just seems that way because its their only income type that isnt gimped.


Squad wiping isnt an excuse to buff a unit, it just means that you are ignoring the true cause (squad spacing) and using the issues to buff a unit that doesn't need one.

OKW DOES float MP more than any other faction, again, Period.

Every faction is fine ATM, some things need looking at, like the quad and TWP. in conclusion, USF is the only faction that needs help.
4 Aug 2015, 09:30 AM
#83
avatar of Corsin

Posts: 600



Squad wiping isnt an excuse to buff a unit, it just means that you are ignoring the true cause (squad spacing) and using the issues to buff a unit that doesn't need one.

OKW DOES float MP more than any other faction, again, Period.

Every faction is fine ATM, some things need looking at, like the quad and TWP. in conclusion, USF is the only faction that needs help.


Deep breaths Queenie deep breaths, we'll get through this together.

I said earlier in this topic that squad bunching was the issue not the performance of the unit.


OKW dont float mp... unless you're not really fighting/losing any men. they have some of the most expensive to reinforce units, not to mention a 300mp retreat point upgrade ect...
4 Aug 2015, 10:06 AM
#84
avatar of Silencer

Posts: 65

Are people saying there will never be a small buff for obersoldaten nor the KT. How rude of you. :foreveralone:

Panzerfusies are better. :foreveralone:
4 Aug 2015, 10:34 AM
#85
avatar of mycalliope

Posts: 721

any people are here are pointing that they were op before....first of all their were 2 rounds of nerfs when wfa came out they were op,first they got their improved accuracy on retreating units removed and their was a universal lmg nerfs and then there was other nerf where they bringed the dps of obers alone down which i want unnerfed ( they were tot op after first round of nerf) and secondly...there are other changes happened to balance that makes them less effective.
4 Aug 2015, 10:41 AM
#86
avatar of Aradan

Posts: 991

Obers (SS), perform well. They are killing machine, if you put them in green cover.
4 Aug 2015, 10:46 AM
#87
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

any people are here are pointing that they were op before....first of all their were 2 rounds of nerfs when wfa came out they were op,first they got their improved accuracy on retreating units removed and their was a universal lmg nerfs and then there was other nerf where they bringed the dps of obers alone down which i want unnerfed ( they were tot op after first round of nerf) and secondly...there are other changes happened to balance that makes them less effective.


And they were nerfed in alpha to live as well.

It only proves how much of an overpowered unit they were if they needed so much to be brought in line.

And they still are effective in what they do.
4 Aug 2015, 10:55 AM
#88
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 760



And they were nerfed in alpha to live as well.

It only proves how much of an overpowered unit they were if they needed so much to be brought in line.

And they still are effective in what they do.


Nope they are not compared to other lmg infantry. grens para's , rifles and even guards outperform them for cost.
4 Aug 2015, 11:25 AM
#89
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

And yet all of that LMG infantry, especially allied are doctrinal locked while obers are stock unit.

Grens might be more cost effective at vet0, at max vet(vet4 is enough actually) there is no contest between obers cost effectiveness or any other inf, obers at that time are gods of infantry fight, same can not be said of any other inf squad since they don't get sniper LMG, plasma shields and wraithbone armor and permanent fleet of foot, unlike obers.
4 Aug 2015, 12:00 PM
#90
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 760

And yet all of that LMG infantry, especially allied are doctrinal locked while obers are stock unit.

Grens might be more cost effective at vet0, at max vet(vet4 is enough actually) there is no contest between obers cost effectiveness or any other inf, obers at that time are gods of infantry fight, same can not be said of any other inf squad since they don't get sniper LMG, plasma shields and wraithbone armor and permanent fleet of foot, unlike obers.


Stop using veterancy as an argument because the okw trades fuel and ammo income just for that. also vet 4 takes ages to get and basing obers around their vet is pointless.

Also take not that VG have no AI at all and are just a shrek platform.
4 Aug 2015, 12:13 PM
#91
avatar of Jorad

Posts: 209

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Aug 2015, 12:00 PMZyllen


Stop using veterancy as an argument because the okw trades fuel and ammo income just for that. also vet 4 takes ages to get and basing obers around their vet is pointless.

Also take not that VG have no AI at all and are just a shrek platform.

OK lets lower the cost of Obers to 350MP and reinforcement to 35MP. DO you think it would be fair to keep that awesome veterancy?
4 Aug 2015, 12:21 PM
#92
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

how can u say rely on falls or jaegers when niether of those squads are nearly as good as upgraded obers? jaegers dont have the ability to laser down full health models, they have to rely on whittling down hp and then hoping the scoped g43 targets the low hp model. falls have more firepower but they suffer HEAVILY from being a 4 man squad with weak defensive modifiers at vet 0 making them very susceptible to bleed.

obers on the other hand have godlike recieved accuracy, can always engage at max range, the majority of the firepower is packed into one platform (lmg) so they laser down models quickly, have the best infantry vet in the game, and are also nondoctrinal. just because they arent the terminators they were before doesnt mean they are underpowered now. you should still easily be getting quite a few kills with these guys thanks to the fact theyre THE BEST long range infantry in the game.


Lemon, when comparing infantry squads, from my own point of view I first evaluate if they are cost effective. If you put falls, jaeger and <upgraded> obers ('cause without a lmg/stg upgrade they are quite useless) of course obers will look better. All nice and great but the more you will build new ober squads, the more you are exposed to severe manpower bleed. Sorry, but building 1-2 ober squads won't do for me. I better build other infantry.
Let's put it like this: one ober squad in a blob of 5 squads can be safely targeted by all squads in the opposing blob and forced to retrat in 2 secs if not killed. Because the rest of the axis blob does not consist from obers, but volksgrenadier which are kinda shit at AI chapter. So you won't be able to use them properly most part of the game.

On the other hand, if I blob together 3 jaeger infantry / fusiliers and 3 volks, that will be quite different and I will find myself in a better situation than before because:

1. you can't focus on all jaegers /fusiliers at once;
2. my blob's DPS will stay there longer and decrease slower because I will retreat my jaegers / fusiliers squad by squad if you focus on them;
3. they are CHEAPER to reinforce and to buy! Alot cheaper. Losing a squad or several models won't have the same impact in my manpower flow as losing an obers squad;
4. Bonus: jaeger can be spawned from buildings so I can have them right there, right away, where I need them. Oh, and they can boby trap as obers do.

In falls' case things are a little different, but I still prefer them compared to Obers. They can be spawned from buildings and they don't lose their Fg42s while having good DPS at ALL RANGES.

So having in view all these issues I would rather say that Obers are the least cost effective infantry unit OKW has. So, as long as OKW has better units (if we take together cost effectivenes + performance) why should I build obers? This is the thing. They are maybe not UP, but certainly they are / or should be / underused by any player who knows to preserve its resources.
4 Aug 2015, 12:24 PM
#93
avatar of gokkel

Posts: 542

And yet all of that LMG infantry, especially allied are doctrinal locked while obers are stock unit.

Grens might be more cost effective at vet0, at max vet(vet4 is enough actually) there is no contest between obers cost effectiveness or any other inf, obers at that time are gods of infantry fight, same can not be said of any other inf squad since they don't get sniper LMG, plasma shields and wraithbone armor and permanent fleet of foot, unlike obers.


Doctrinal things shouldn't be more powerful just because they are doctrinal, they should just give you additional strategical options. And balancing a unit around Vet4 seems weird to me.
4 Aug 2015, 12:59 PM
#94
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

Why not just remove the suppression with Vet 4 and make the base unit better? Because I'm starting to feel kinda bitter that people keep justifying wonky performance with vet 4 and 5.

Yeah sure veterancy is great and all but squad wipes in this game are common due to the amount of DPS and explosives running around the map so holding out for high veterancy to make the difference is problematic.
4 Aug 2015, 13:23 PM
#95
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

Why not just remove the suppression with Vet 4 and make the base unit better? Because I'm starting to feel kinda bitter that people keep justifying wonky performance with vet 4 and 5.

Yeah sure veterancy is great and all but squad wipes in this game are common due to the amount of DPS and explosives running around the map so holding out for high veterancy to make the difference is problematic.


yeah, that too.
4 Aug 2015, 13:36 PM
#96
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Aug 2015, 12:24 PMgokkel


Doctrinal things shouldn't be more powerful just because they are doctrinal, they should just give you additional strategical options. And balancing a unit around Vet4 seems weird to me.

I'm not saying doctrinal units should be more powerful, but you still can't ignore the scaling when discussing the unit, especially one that doesn't really struggle to vet, contrary to what Zyllen claims, obers vet pretty fast once they reach vet2 thanks to accuracy bonus.

Volks are best example here, they start off weaker then cons, but with vet they beat cons effortlessly thanks to all the bonuses and we're having a situation where cheaper unit dominates more expensive one.

Zyllens argument would be accurate if obers had a fuel cost, but they don't. Muni limit isn't that severe since its still possible to equip 3 shrecks, 3 pfusies with G43 and throw some nades around, so LMG isn't really locked behind significant cost either.

Besides, we already had them as bulletproof 4 men sniper teams, we don't need to go back to that, which any buff to their DPS would mean. OKW doesn't really lack menpower for them unless you're being severely pushed back in the early game.

ps. NOW I remember you :clap: horrible memory to no-trolls
4 Aug 2015, 13:41 PM
#97
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

Even vet 5 Volks don't dominate cons. Volks can't even reliably win until vet 3. There isn't a massive amount of reasons to get lots of Volks this patch outside of shrek spam I guess

It's just bad design in a game like coh2 were early game is so important
4 Aug 2015, 13:42 PM
#98
avatar of ElTirador

Posts: 27

If they need something is to not get one shooted, its painfull to get such expensive squads getting deleted by wild Sherman/T34/T70, not complaining about grenades since they are avoidable
4 Aug 2015, 14:28 PM
#99
avatar of dbmb

Posts: 122 | Subs: 2

Obers are terrible. Since the JP4 is the best tank in the game, Relic should just switch JP4 with Obers and have them buildable in BHQ. They'll come out at the same time as light vehicles hit and will still be just as useless.
4 Aug 2015, 15:29 PM
#100
avatar of gokkel

Posts: 542


I'm not saying doctrinal units should be more powerful, but you still can't ignore the scaling when discussing the unit, especially one that doesn't really struggle to vet, contrary to what Zyllen claims, obers vet pretty fast once they reach vet2 thanks to accuracy bonus.

Volks are best example here, they start off weaker then cons, but with vet they beat cons effortlessly thanks to all the bonuses and we're having a situation where cheaper unit dominates more expensive one.

Zyllens argument would be accurate if obers had a fuel cost, but they don't. Muni limit isn't that severe since its still possible to equip 3 shrecks, 3 pfusies with G43 and throw some nades around, so LMG isn't really locked behind significant cost either.

Besides, we already had them as bulletproof 4 men sniper teams, we don't need to go back to that, which any buff to their DPS would mean. OKW doesn't really lack menpower for them unless you're being severely pushed back in the early game.

ps. NOW I remember you :clap: horrible memory to no-trolls


I am not saying Obersoldaten should go back to where they were. I am not sure myself how much change they could need right now. I just was not happy with the arguments you brought in play.

Veterancy has to be taken into account as you say (I am not quite agreeing with how easy it is go get and keep Obersoldaten to high Veterancy but that won't matter for now), but I think it would be better to make the unit better from the point where it comes out and reduce in return the power of Veterancy or the upgrades to prevent them from scaling to too much power.
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