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russian armor

ML-20 152mm Howitzer

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10 Aug 2015, 19:30 PM
#121
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



This would still leave OKW holding the bag.


And the point is, you can make trucks outside of the base but it will expose them to howies. High risk/high reward. Or you can simly put them inside the base without any risk.
10 Aug 2015, 19:39 PM
#122
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 22



Scavenge doc arty reliable? wtf

Hell yeah it is. :snfPeter:
10 Aug 2015, 19:42 PM
#123
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

I feel like being able to totally negate one of the core features of a faction for a 600 MP investment is dumb. OKW can't really afford to place it's trucks in it's base when facing aggressive players.

It would be like if Ostheer could pay 600 MP to remove the ability for USF to decrew their tanks or OKW could pay MP to remove Soviet's 6 men squads.
10 Aug 2015, 20:23 PM
#124
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4490

Or... make them unable to shoot into the base, while howies cannot be built inside the base.


Disable shooting into bases, yeah. Disable building in your own, I disagree unless they get the free cover walls like the Pak 43. Even then I feel like it'd suffer Pak 43 syndrome, while the Priest and Sexton are free to hide within their own bases, have a protected crew, and run away from threats.
10 Aug 2015, 21:03 PM
#125
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



Disable shooting into bases, yeah. Disable building in your own, I disagree unless they get the free cover walls like the Pak 43. Even then I feel like it'd suffer Pak 43 syndrome, while the Priest and Sexton are free to hide within their own bases, have a protected crew, and run away from threats.


Well, both things are combined. I mean, if you cannot base rape, you cannot counter howie with another howie, right? That's why they should not be built in base, but just outside so they can be coutered by other howies.
10 Aug 2015, 21:06 PM
#126
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



Well, both things are combined. I mean, if you cannot base rape, you cannot counter howie with another howie, right? That's why they should not be built in base, but just outside so they can be coutered by other howies.


An LeFH is never going to beat an ML-20 in an artillery duel. The counter to ML-20 is stuka bombing strike or railway artillery, not shooting back. I mean shooting back is better than nothing lol but it's no guarantee of success.
10 Aug 2015, 21:06 PM
#127
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4490

Well, both things are combined. I mean, if you cannot base rape, you cannot counter howie with another howie, right? That's why they should not be built in base, but just outside so they can be coutered by other howies.


That still doesn't stop Priests and Sextons unless you disable the barrage ability while they're sitting in base, and even then that doesn't stop them from rolling to the border, firing, and rolling back behind HQ.
10 Aug 2015, 21:56 PM
#128
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



An LeFH is never going to beat an ML-20 in an artillery duel. The counter to ML-20 is stuka bombing strike or railway artillery, not shooting back. I mean shooting back is better than nothing lol but it's no guarantee of success.


This is simply wrong.
Just lanched a test. ML-20 barraging LeFH, LeFH using counter barrage.
1 win for ML-20
1 win for LeFH
8 draws (both survived/both destroyed/out of crew).
10 Aug 2015, 22:06 PM
#129
avatar of Silencer

Posts: 65



And the point is, you can make trucks outside of the base but it will expose them to howies. High risk/high reward. Or you can simly put them inside the base without any risk.

:foreveralone:

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2015, 19:39 PMVonIvan

Hell yeah it is. :snfPeter:

:foreveralone:

Patch analysis:

ML-20 vs OKW --> :foreveralone:
10 Aug 2015, 22:13 PM
#130
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



This is simply wrong.
Just lanched a test. ML-20 barraging LeFH, LeFH using counter barrage.
1 win for ML-20
1 win for LeFH
8 draws (both survived/both destroyed/out of crew).


Were you testing them at max or medium range? Did you place them by a place that could reinforce? How many barrages did it take?

Just saying "Oh I did it this what happened" tells us nothing. But if you took the time to look at the stats you would see that literally the only thing the LeFH has on the ML-20 is more shells fired; 4 with no vet and 2 with vet. Seems pretty lackluster of an advantage for being much much worse in the damage department while still costing exactly the same.

This also doesn't take into account the design of both factions, with the LeFH not exactly drowning in targets due to the fact both Allied factions are not designed around defensive play.

EDIT: The correct way to use the LeFH is German Mech Doctrine. Recon with smoke drop, scopes, and Command Tank to reduce damage from incoming artillery. Also you can't chose what target counter-barrage fires at, so having it on all the time is a very bad idea.
10 Aug 2015, 22:26 PM
#131
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6312 | Subs: 1



That still doesn't stop Priests and Sextons unless you disable the barrage ability while they're sitting in base, and even then that doesn't stop them from rolling to the border, firing, and rolling back behind HQ.


Just like any other mobile artillery.
10 Aug 2015, 23:07 PM
#132
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



Were you testing them at max or medium range? Did you place them by a place that could reinforce? How many barrages did it take?

Just saying "Oh I did it this what happened" tells us nothing. But if you took the time to look at the stats you would see that literally the only thing the LeFH has on the ML-20 is more shells fired; 4 with no vet and 2 with vet. Seems pretty lackluster of an advantage for being much much worse in the damage department while still costing exactly the same.

This also doesn't take into account the design of both factions, with the LeFH not exactly drowning in targets due to the fact both Allied factions are not designed around defensive play.

EDIT: The correct way to use the LeFH is German Mech Doctrine. Recon with smoke drop, scopes, and Command Tank to reduce damage from incoming artillery. Also you can't chose what target counter-barrage fires at, so having it on all the time is a very bad idea.


Max range without reinforce.

ML-20 may be in favour if you take a look at stats, but they mean nothing when it comes to howie vs howie. It's about who will first get 2 hits or who first will get juicy hit right in the center of howie.
10 Aug 2015, 23:10 PM
#133
avatar of Imagelessbean

Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1



Were you testing them at max or medium range? Did you place them by a place that could reinforce? How many barrages did it take?

Just saying "Oh I did it this what happened" tells us nothing. But if you took the time to look at the stats you would see that literally the only thing the LeFH has on the ML-20 is more shells fired; 4 with no vet and 2 with vet. Seems pretty lackluster of an advantage for being much much worse in the damage department while still costing exactly the same.

This also doesn't take into account the design of both factions, with the LeFH not exactly drowning in targets due to the fact both Allied factions are not designed around defensive play.

EDIT: The correct way to use the LeFH is German Mech Doctrine. Recon with smoke drop, scopes, and Command Tank to reduce damage from incoming artillery. Also you can't chose what target counter-barrage fires at, so having it on all the time is a very bad idea.


As a reminder, you don't have to pick a doc with LeFH. In fact if you see your opponent going ML20 I would recommend against it. If on the other hand you see the game turning into a bit of a standoff get the artillery. Or if you want go with heavy tanks and use them to break through. The LeFH is not the counter to the ML20 it is an option now. Also none of this means that either gun does not require some work to finally balance.

Artillery field officer + LeFH is pretty nasty. You can redirect barrage in middle of shooting and then fire again as soon as the cool down is over and not have stopped shooting at any time.
10 Aug 2015, 23:26 PM
#134
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



Max range without reinforce.

ML-20 may be in favour if you take a look at stats, but they mean nothing when it comes to howie vs howie. It's about who will first get 2 hits or who first will get juicy hit right in the center of howie.


Also have to take into account sight, which reduces scatter. If you wanted to do a statistically significant test it would require a lot of tries in order to deduce a pattern; although it's worrying it mostly results in a draw when using an ability specifically meant to counter enemy artillery.

Shorts short; the ML-20 is just better for all other things like shooting at infantry and area denial.

As a reminder, you don't have to pick a doc with LeFH. In fact if you see your opponent going ML20 I would recommend against it. If on the other hand you see the game turning into a bit of a standoff get the artillery. Or if you want go with heavy tanks and use them to break through. The LeFH is not the counter to the ML20 it is an option now. Also none of this means that either gun does not require some work to finally balance.


Yes this is literally what I said earlier. It's not a counter, and it's normally not going to win any artillery duels. Especially if you keep counter barrage on because it will suck up cooldowns while shooting at mobile shit that can just move away.

The LeFH also suffers from only coming in 2 good commanders. Storm and Mech.

Artillery field officer + LeFH is pretty nasty. You can redirect barrage in middle of shooting and then fire again as soon as the cool down is over and not have stopped shooting at any time.


None of the LeFH + Artillery Commander doctrines are good in 1v1 or 2v2. The issue is not the LeFH firing not enough shells or not firing often enough; it's that when it's shooting at something the damage is subpar for a 600 MP unit (compared to the other options available, that is).
10 Aug 2015, 23:41 PM
#135
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4490

Just like any other mobile artillery.


And thus you've only solved the problem with Soviet and Ostheer, not USF or UKF. Furthermore, the ML-20 can be reinforced with Conscripts, so Ostheer and their already inferior LeFH would get the short end of the stick in both performance and sustainability.
11 Aug 2015, 05:24 AM
#136
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6312 | Subs: 1



And thus you've only solved the problem with Soviet and Ostheer, not USF or UKF. Furthermore, the ML-20 can be reinforced with Conscripts, so Ostheer and their already inferior LeFH would get the short end of the stick in both performance and sustainability.


Connect the dots. Katyusha...Panzerwerfer...Stuka...Priest...Sextons. Theres no problem there.

LeFH and ML20 both needs a rework. I'll either go for native 200damage and just reducing the number of shells on the ML20 by 1 or 2.
Regarding reinforce, both have natural access now to HT (you can't skip T3 nor T2) and as OH you can always get a reinforce/medic bunker nearby.

PD: artillery needs a rework so other areas of the game can be improved as well.
11 Aug 2015, 06:04 AM
#137
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4490

Connect the dots. Katyusha...Panzerwerfer...Stuka...Priest...Sextons. Theres no problem there.

One is medium-range rocket artillery on an ultra-light platform, and the other is long range heavy artillery on a light platform. And the Stuka, it's a mix of the two. Point is the Priest and Sexton will be mostly unaffected by artillery changes, and the LeFH would be most affected.

And just for fun, Artillery Emplacement concept based off the Pak 43:

13 Aug 2015, 17:28 PM
#138
avatar of NEVEC

Posts: 708 | Subs: 1

I feel like being able to totally negate one of the core features of a faction for a 600 MP investment is dumb. OKW can't really afford to place it's trucks in it's base when facing aggressive players.

It would be like if Ostheer could pay 600 MP to remove the ability for USF to decrew their tanks or OKW could pay MP to remove Soviet's 6 men squads.


Or allies can pay 500 munition to 100% kill Kingtiger or Jagdtiger for 500 munition in 10 seconds.
5 Nov 2019, 12:48 PM
#139
avatar of Ritter

Posts: 151

IT IS USELESS NOW!
5 Nov 2019, 13:41 PM
#140
avatar of Raviloli

Posts: 62

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Nov 2019, 12:48 PMRitter
IT IS USELESS NOW!


How many threads must you necro, old man?!
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