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russian armor

Wehrmacht has to many "get out of jail free" abilities

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17 Jun 2015, 08:48 AM
#141
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1068



the entire commander is a sore spot when it comes to balance.


Again, he wasnt talking about the CAS doctrine. He was talking about the loitering stuka. Far too many people constantly muddeling up Stuka loiter and stuka AT strafe from CAS doctrine on this forum.

CAS doctrine is strong, but i does NOT auto target like peeople keep implying.

The stuka loiter, while very strong, is NOT in any muni convert doctrine.
17 Jun 2015, 23:47 PM
#142
avatar of Panzerschützen

Posts: 186

Free-Non Doctrinal Smoke
Against
Doctrinal+Pricey Smoke
Enough said.
18 Jun 2015, 12:36 PM
#143
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

I must admit, I hate to see almost dead Panther with blitz+smoke combo. Impossible to catch and finish.

I can live with smoke - doctrinal thing which I can handle with ground attack but blitz used to reverse? That's retarded.
18 Jun 2015, 13:22 PM
#144
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

Free-Non Doctrinal Smoke
Against
Doctrinal+Pricey Smoke
Enough said.


Amen.
18 Jun 2015, 19:58 PM
#145
avatar of ZeroCrack01

Posts: 26

I see quite many player in this topic who don't even know that smoke cost ammo -> that means they don't even play when -> that means I don't want to discus with them because of one sided opinions. But I can say like many others. Smoke is totally fine, blitz is a bit ridiculous, should be in exchange to smoke a collective doctrinal ability with a higher cost and smoke a non doctrinal ability. That would be my idea.
Similar to coh1 blitz ability
19 Jun 2015, 20:38 PM
#146
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1067

I must admit, I hate to see almost dead Panther with blitz+smoke combo. Impossible to catch and finish.

I can live with smoke - doctrinal thing which I can handle with ground attack but blitz used to reverse? That's retarded.


60 munitions to save an unflanked panther that didnt hit a mine or get AT naded? Thats unfair?
19 Jun 2015, 21:25 PM
#147
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



60 munitions to save an unflanked panther that didnt hit a mine or get AT naded? Thats unfair?


Yes. The whole approach for Blitzkrieg is bad. Blitzkrieg should be offensive, massive ability, not singule, defensive one. That's the first. Second point, reversing Panther faster than cars or light vehicles? Come on...

I would change secure mode for expensive blitz anytime. It's very forgiving ability. You made one step too far, just blitz away. You made one step too far with Sherman or T34 - you gonna lose them.
19 Jun 2015, 21:41 PM
#148
avatar of Corsin

Posts: 597

This whole thread is abit bleh, the OP doesnt really seem to have a clue. If he finds wehrmacht as being a forgiving faction... then im sorry but he cant of played them.

Soviet 6 man squad/weapon crew sizes, the best call-ins combination and USF instant crit repair + non doctrinal smoke + free squads for teching....

And he thinks because 4 - 5 Wehrmacht commanders have smoke they have too many "get out of jail free" abilities? Im sorry but when 60 ammo Teller mines are repaired instantly for 15 ammo from the USF.... i just cant take your thread seriously.

This is without going into how unforgiving the infantry battles are, with far easier squad/weapon team wipes since they have smaller squad sizes and so on....




And for the people who thinks blitz ability is unfair....

Its not that much speed bonus anymore since its been nerfed.... and yeah ok Wehrmacht have this ability on most their tanks... German armor is slightly easier to keep alive.

Do Wehrmacht have 6 man squads on weapon teams? no
Do they have 6 man squads on any basic infantry? no (only Opstruppen)
Do they have Demo charges with which to 1 shot any russian squad with no warning or chance of avoiding? No (cant expect to have a mine sweeper in every part of the map, and even if you do, you dont always watch when they run onto vps).
Can they hop out of any vehicle and instantly repair engine damage? no
Do they have doctrines with self repair? no
Do the Wehermacht have the magic aircraft of divine guidance making all damage done to a tank significantly increase? (Marked target) No


Before bitching about the ONLY saving grace of german armor....that are instantly driven back by unrealistic and instant/unpredictable abilities like marked target... please look at the faction as a whole and what its fighting with and against... smaller squads with less squad wipe potential, more ammo demanding across the board including more expensive mines that can be instantly repaired by USF.

The Wehrmacht have to rush Pioneers to their tanks to repair them... Many soviet commanders (about as many as german commanders have panzer tactician) have self repair... and all USF vehicles can just hop outa their tank and repair it.

Play more, then post in balance.
19 Jun 2015, 22:13 PM
#149
avatar of siuking666

Posts: 707

Close this retarded thread already.

If OP thinks Ostheer is so overpowered, go play it and stop bitching
19 Jun 2015, 22:22 PM
#150
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jun 2015, 21:41 PMCorsin


You are not entirely right.

I can agree only about crit repairs that it should be more expensive.

But the rest?

Do Wehrmacht have 6 man squads on weapon teams? no, but their team weapons are stronger and they are not exposed to powerful rifle nade.
Do they have 6 man squads on any basic infantry? no (only Opstruppen) - No, but they have better fire power than others.
Do they have Demo charges with which to 1 shot any russian squad with no warning or chance of avoiding? No (cant expect to have a mine sweeper in every part of the map, and even if you do, you dont always watch when they run onto vps). Do allies have powerful, sluggish TD or AT gun with cheat wall ability? This is pudding cause we can take all day and night talking about who has what... Tho demos are easy to avoid. 100% with sweeper but even without them you can avoid 7/10 with smart microing.
Can they hop out of any vehicle and instantly repair engine damage? no, but they have smoke/blitz which are more useful in my opinion
Do they have doctrines with self repair? no, again, do USF have heavy tank? Etc etc...
Do the Wehermacht have the magic aircraft of divine guidance making all damage done to a tank significantly increase? (Marked target) No, but OKW has, while OST has iDelete strafe for 110ammo

We can go like this all day... Why Axis' upgrade are free from unlocking? etc etc... but that's not the point.

So, markt target in unrealistic? But Panther drivindg with speed of 80-90km/h is not unrealistic? It's even more.

Don't compare Sherman's smoke because it's completly different and it won't save you when you have almost 0 HP.

What repair ability has to do with it? Nothing. It does not matter if you repair it behind the lines with ability or infantry. It does not matter.

Smoke is amazing and it's fine.

It's insanely stupid blitzkrieg which makes tanks like race cars, not to mention, it should be offensinve ability, not defensive.

Today I was able to get out with almost dead Panther 3 times becasue of blitzkrieg. Of course, I was glad with it, but was it objectively all right? Not at all. It's complelty agasint design of this ability and totally unrealistic.
22 Jun 2015, 16:48 PM
#151
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 588



You are not entirely right.

I can agree only about crit repairs that it should be more expensive.

But the rest?

Do Wehrmacht have 6 man squads on weapon teams? no, but their team weapons are stronger and they are not exposed to powerful rifle nade.
Do they have 6 man squads on any basic infantry? no (only Opstruppen) - No, but they have better fire power than others.
Do they have Demo charges with which to 1 shot any russian squad with no warning or chance of avoiding? No (cant expect to have a mine sweeper in every part of the map, and even if you do, you dont always watch when they run onto vps). Do allies have powerful, sluggish TD or AT gun with cheat wall ability? This is pudding cause we can take all day and night talking about who has what... Tho demos are easy to avoid. 100% with sweeper but even without them you can avoid 7/10 with smart microing.
Can they hop out of any vehicle and instantly repair engine damage? no, but they have smoke/blitz which are more useful in my opinion
Do they have doctrines with self repair? no, again, do USF have heavy tank? Etc etc...
Do the Wehermacht have the magic aircraft of divine guidance making all damage done to a tank significantly increase? (Marked target) No, but OKW has, while OST has iDelete strafe for 110ammo

We can go like this all day... Why Axis' upgrade are free from unlocking? etc etc... but that's not the point.

So, markt target in unrealistic? But Panther drivindg with speed of 80-90km/h is not unrealistic? It's even more.

Don't compare Sherman's smoke because it's completly different and it won't save you when you have almost 0 HP.

What repair ability has to do with it? Nothing. It does not matter if you repair it behind the lines with ability or infantry. It does not matter.

Smoke is amazing and it's fine.

It's insanely stupid blitzkrieg which makes tanks like race cars, not to mention, it should be offensinve ability, not defensive.

Today I was able to get out with almost dead Panther 3 times becasue of blitzkrieg. Of course, I was glad with it, but was it objectively all right? Not at all. It's complelty agasint design of this ability and totally unrealistic.


+1
Australian Magic for President!
22 Jun 2015, 17:23 PM
#152
avatar of Jason

Posts: 82


Do they have 6 man squads on any basic infantry? no (only Opstruppen) - No, but they have better fire power than others.

Explain please.. Both conscripts and rifles beat grenadiers. It's only when they are able to get 60 muni LMG's that they can compete.
22 Jun 2015, 17:25 PM
#153
avatar of Jason

Posts: 82



Yes. The whole approach for Blitzkrieg is bad. Blitzkrieg should be offensive, massive ability, not singule, defensive one. That's the first. Second point, reversing Panther faster than cars or light vehicles? Come on...

I would change secure mode for expensive blitz anytime. It's very forgiving ability. You made one step too far, just blitz away. You made one step too far with Sherman or T34 - you gonna lose them.


Shermans and T34's don't cost 175 fuel now do they. Unbelievable.
22 Jun 2015, 17:43 PM
#154
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 588

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jun 2015, 17:25 PMJason


Shermans and T34's don't cost 175 fuel now do they. Unbelievable.


Your comparing apples to oranges if your talking about the panthers cost. A tank that can do anything for 175 fuel vs a t-34 that is pretty much worthless right now and a panther can easily beat two shermans which would cost 220 fuel but can't even pen the front of a panther.

And oh yeah with out blitzkreig panther goes faster in reverse than sherman going forwards makes sense.
22 Jun 2015, 17:44 PM
#155
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 588

woops meant to edit
22 Jun 2015, 20:21 PM
#156
avatar of Chiro
Donator 11

Posts: 89

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jun 2015, 17:43 PMRocket


Your comparing apples to oranges if your talking about the panthers cost. A tank that can do anything for 175 fuel vs a t-34 that is pretty much worthless right now and a panther can easily beat two shermans which would cost 220 fuel but can't even pen the front of a panther.

And oh yeah with out blitzkreig panther goes faster in reverse than sherman going forwards makes sense.


The Panther is not a tank who can to anything
It can't fight anything but vehicles (efficient)
22 Jun 2015, 20:46 PM
#157
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1064

The speed on the Panther is needed. It´s a tank hunter. This means it does pursue tanks. Otherwise it would have 60 range.

Further someone did a test. If the Panther is flanked, it will lose to a single T-34/85 because of the slower rate of fire, yet same HP. The test was done in an vacuum without micro, but you get the point how the Panther is meant to be used: The Panther is meant to utilize its speed and thus have the thicker armor pointed towards the enemy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lutDRFRp5pst#t=2m35s

So if you fiddle with the Panthers speed, it should come at a hefty performance increase in either range, armor health or dps.
22 Jun 2015, 21:21 PM
#158
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 588

Ok killing infantry is the only thing it is not good at. It has everything that it needs GREAT front armor speed hp and range plus the get out of jail button blitzkreig and smoke(which I am ok with I guess). Umm yes if you drive a 34/85 directly behind the panther and it just sits there letting it happen yeah its going to lose but all you really have to do is turn it so the front armor is facing it and you win or just run away there pretty hard to actually trap with one tank somewhat because of the stupid ass thing where tanks can "phase" through others if the one behind it is not completely stopped.

Maybe it can't fight infantry but in most cases it can also just ignore allied infantry as zooks and ptrs have a very hard time pening it. Also pretty hard to engine disable it as it is too fast for infantry to get behind.

Yes its built to pursue tanks but not going backwards faster than mediums and jackson going forwards with out blitzkrieg, but it has been bullshit from the beginning much like the tiger ace. If soviets had a IS2 ace there would be severe bitching. The jackson should at least be as fast as it as it is a glass cannon and more so needs escape it has range tho I guess.

So no I disagree it already basicly has 0 drawbacks other than it is not good at killing infantry so why could you not nerf its backward speed or at least take blitzkeig away from any tank reversing.
22 Jun 2015, 21:28 PM
#159
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1064

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jun 2015, 21:21 PMRocket
Yes its built to pursue tanks but not going backwards faster than mediums and jackson going forwards with out blitzkrieg.
I think those are restrictions in Coh2. There are no "forward" or "reverse" speeds, just the units speed.

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jun 2015, 21:21 PMRocket

So no I disagree it already basicly has 0 drawbacks other than it is not good at killing infantry so why could you not nerf its backward speed or at least take blitzkeig away from any tank reversing.
No, it has only decent HP. Right now it can easily get swarmed by the double T-34/85 call in. The only saving grace is to run backwards. Because of it having the same HP as a T-34/85, a slower ROF and no rear armor, it will not even cause the slightest competition to the tanks it´s meant to counter if the speed was decreased.

As I wrote earlier: Only with a performance boost, the speed could be reduced.
22 Jun 2015, 21:38 PM
#160
avatar of Ace of Swords

Posts: 219

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jun 2015, 21:21 PMRocket


And now point out the fuel costs.
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