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Wehrmacht has to many "get out of jail free" abilities

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11 Jun 2015, 22:37 PM
#101
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 588

Here you go this guy only had half the map and mostly less than half the map early and mid game and still managed to field a pz4 same time as my sherman and a tiger very shortly after my first e8 and was able to call in CAS 3 times.

Examples of how the rifle nade is broken ( you cant be watching every squad on the field at one time it is impossible and you have 0 time to retreat or react unless you somehow see the tiny guy drop to a knee)

How the pz4 if anything needs a nerf especially on its vet system (pz4 is rifle naded and running away with its rear facing sherman chasing not rifle naded shooting it in the rear with its front facing rear of pz4. pz4 still wins possibly cause it vets on 2nd to last shot also never does not pen front of sherman)

How to use blitzkrieg magic escape button even though your tank should be dead from being out played.

Oh yes and how munition staved and how much tech cost hurts whermacht.

http://www.coh2.org/replay/35420/bullshit-cas/page/1#post_id339293
11 Jun 2015, 22:53 PM
#102
avatar of G4bb4_G4nd4lf
Donator 33

Posts: 658

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jun 2015, 21:46 PMaaa

What I mean is before last patch they were playing blatantly OP fraction. Now when the fractions got more balanced they just cant adapt to play with oponents that have equal abilities.


To be honest, the few changes that have been made to OKW are not enough to turn it from a "blatantly OP" faction into a rather weak one IMO.

Shrecks received a minor accuracy nerf that still gets nullified by their vet bonuses and you now have to buy slighty nerfed LMG4s for Obers (which are still decent). The KT got an armor nerf but you don't see that unit in 1v1s that often anyway.

If you considered OKW "blatantly OP" in the last patch, it definitely is OP now as well.

BUT OKW is considered to be "weak" in 1v1 now, and that's not because of the latest nerfs.

I think people just adapted and know how to play against OKW by now. This, and the fact that both Allied factions received some nice buffs.

It's wrong to say OKW was super OP last patch, all OKW players are low skilled.
11 Jun 2015, 23:35 PM
#103
avatar of Goldeneale

Posts: 176

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jun 2015, 21:46 PMaaa


In late game you have lots munitions. Saving tanks for such a low price and with no skill 1 button press is absurd. And free repair is absurd too, gives advantage to the player who have more tanks.



First off, by definition it can't be "free" if it costs munitions, no matter how many munitions you have you're still paying for it.

Second, OH has plenty to spend munitions on. When I play OH I use my muni on mines, bunkers, and LMGs, not to mention nades and fausts. It isn't easy to have a muni stash saved up at all times, unless you're intentionally saving for a big call in. A smart player will be cautious with his tanks and use his muni on improving his strategic position, instead of escaping from bad tactical ones.

Also free repair?



I don't think OH gets free repair, and I don't think OKW has smoke on their armor. With regards to he OKW "free" repair, it costs 200 MP and 40 fuel. You can build an engineer, park it in your base, and have "free" repair for 40 fuel less. If your USF you don't even have to do that, because every tank comes with its own squad of actually free repairmen.
11 Jun 2015, 23:50 PM
#104
avatar of ThoseDeafMutes

Posts: 1026

The 4v4 statistics are hilarious, the top 200 allied teams win only slightly more often than they lose, while the top 200 axis teams are like 5:1 win:loss ratio.

12 Jun 2015, 00:12 AM
#105
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
The 4v4 statistics are hilarious, the top 200 allied teams win only slightly more often than they lose, while the top 200 axis teams are like 5:1 win:loss ratio.



what?
12 Jun 2015, 02:20 AM
#106
avatar of ThoseDeafMutes

Posts: 1026



what?


The stats on this page:

http://coh2chart.com/

Click on "4v4" at the top. The charts indicate that for the top 200 Axis and Allied teams, the win/loss ratio this week for Axis are 4-6:1, while for allies it is more like 1.2:1. I knew those modes were axis favoured, but I had no idea of that sheer scale of how much it favours them :D

12 Jun 2015, 02:25 AM
#107
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
wrong thread m8
12 Jun 2015, 04:22 AM
#108
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470



Damn, does people not understand sarcasm with a smile? I guess i should had said Kappa.

oh, lol

i thought that was an abashed face, not a sarcastic one.
12 Jun 2015, 05:43 AM
#109
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jun 2015, 21:46 PMaaa



It sounds crazy but I honestly think that OKW players now started to lose more cuz they are low skill in general.

What I mean is before last patch they were playing blatantly OP fraction. Now when the fractions got more balanced they just cant adapt to play with oponents that have equal abilities.




Did it ever cross your mind that in 80% of cases the same players playing OKW are playing at least one of the allied factions too? Hardcore nazi fans with no interest but in one faction playing exclusevely that faction are not the majority of okw players you encounter.

Related to "adaptation" I can explain this issue, because I generally like to play OKW next to ostheer and USF (I hate soviets but I still playing them from 2 reasons: 1. 50% of game's initial price was for this faction; 2. I could not argue on forums if I wouldn't know about this faction :P):

Before latest patch, there were cheesee tactics that people were tempted to use because they were making things easier for you (less micro for instance). Besides these tactics there were others, harder to use, but effective nontheless.
After latest patch, when OKW was nerfed, the cheesee tactics remain the only ones viable, if you want to win, of course. Anything else you do, you are next to dead. So now, these cheesee tactics are not only easier, but necessary, and they are still failing in almost 50% of cases.

So, the "lack of adaptation" you accuse it's in fact THE adaptation to what OKW currently is.

From my point of view, I am not complaining that OKW is such a bad designed faction. Its initial design was not bad, let's remember they had the same penalty for fuel AND for amo. It had a few units that somewhat overperformed making fuel and amo penalties to feel like not enough. Those units needed a little tonning down and all would have been fine, keeping the initial resource penalties.
To give you a little example: the first raketen nerf was too much. They should have kept raketen as a reliable AT weapon and kept the 66% amo income percent. That would have forced OKW to COMBINE its shrecked volks (that were not enough) with the raketen. And so on.

But what Relic did? They started to nerf left and right, then felt bad about it and increased the amo income to 100% (hello shreck blobs) then felt even worst about it and nurfed the amo income to 80% still not solving the problem of cheesee tactics and still modifying and nurfing almost every OKW unit.

And what we have today, it's a product not of a bad design, but of a bad management of a faction that forces you to play in 2-3 ways at most, or suffer defeat. Nice.
12 Jun 2015, 06:42 AM
#110
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2609 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2015, 05:43 AMJohnnyB



Before latest patch, there were cheesee tactics that people were tempted to use because they were making things easier for you (less micro for instance). Besides these tactics there were others, harder to use, but effective nontheless.
After latest patch, when OKW was nerfed, the cheesee tactics remain the only ones viable, if you want to win, of course. Anything else you do, you are next to dead. So now, these cheesee tactics are not only easier, but necessary, and they are still failing in almost 50% of cases.




How can you be sure of that if you do not experiment any other tactics? What I see is a bunch of players who stopped playing the faction that had the easiest way to win for another one. And the fun part is the faction haven't been that much nerf, you just need put a raken in your BO instead of only shreck. And people suddenly stop playing that faction because of that? Ah no, there is also Obers, they are not anymore 3 grades above any other infantry, now its just 2 and you need to make decision to pay or not for their upgrade instead of shreck.
What an hard choice, 1 less shreck replaced by a raken and decision making around shreck and LMG. too hard!!! :D

I wouldn't be surprise if those people decided to play heavily Sov and with the new Guard Meta. Same way to play and win.
12 Jun 2015, 06:51 AM
#111
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2015, 06:42 AMEsxile


How can you be sure of that if you do not experiment any other tactics?


I don't know about others, but I did. I did it because in most situations I didn't play OKW like many people did: shreck spam => obers => panther(s)/KT => gg. I liked using different units. Tried that after latest patch also and got beaten hard by soviet cheese. So I swiched to solely OKW cheese and it's the only way it works.

As simple as that.

In other words, latest changes didn't do much, but striped OKW from any other way of playing BUT cheese.
12 Jun 2015, 10:52 AM
#112
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1068

The thing that can make CAS dominate, is the spam of inf with plenty of munis for upgrades, topped off with air support that really allows you to dominate (aka cheese), but it is possible for a good enemy to pick you to pieces with armour, so long as they keep your army in check and its not allowed to snow ball.

If you DO decide to teck to P4 with CAS, you are instantly hurting the amount of infatry AND planes you field, because tecking costs plenty of MANPOWER and fuel.. so CAS then becomes more rounded, but not as powerful.

Its powerful for the same reason Mech Assault and Stug Es are powerful, it is one of few Werh doctrines that has some impact without investing teck heavily in manpower, allowing you to field a decent sized infatry force.
12 Jun 2015, 13:18 PM
#113
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1378



So over all: axis are noskillnoobs and allies are hardcoretryhards... I see, I see :rofl:

"In late game you have lots munitions." Hmm, uhmm nope... unless my opponent has done terribad from the beginning of the match :rolleyes:


I think majority of players who bought COH2 after WFA got use to the idea of long range Shrek accuracy and A-attack blobs with obers. You can tell if the
OKW player is competent if he/she spread out more units and combine arms.
12 Jun 2015, 14:42 PM
#114
avatar of niutudis

Posts: 276



I think majority of players who bought COH2 after WFA got use to the idea of long range Shrek accuracy and A-attack blobs with obers. You can tell if the
OKW player is competent if he/she spread out more units and combine arms.


Hmmm, I play this game since january and from what I see here and on the steamforums, the people that post about something "op" are mostly playing only 1 faction or only 1 side.
Thats ok, noone should be forced to play with a faction he doesn´t like, but a 1-sided oppinion is never realy a good thing, unless one needs an excuse for why he lost and of course the least possible thing is that his opponent played better or made less mistakes.

No, no, no the other guy has an unfair advantage - Lets start a forumwarrior-crusade!!! :spam:
12 Jun 2015, 16:29 PM
#115
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 588

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2015, 05:43 AMJohnnyB

After latest patch, when OKW was nerfed, the cheesee tactics remain the only ones viable, if you want to win, of course. Anything else you do, you are next to dead. So now, these cheesee tactics are not only easier, but necessary, and they are still failing in almost 50% of cases.


Cheese tactics as in spamming volks w/shreks and obers? I see okw using a lot more rakentenwerfer as it is much better now and effective and iegs and combined arms in general. As well as the p4 commander. I attribute this to the nerf as before it was only volks w/shreks and ober blobs because it was easy and takes little micro but does not work every time now at least. Although when you can have an AT all at an cheap infantry level okw will never stop spamming volks into every strategy. Once again the problem is volks w/shreks. I am all for giving okw a medium tank especially if that delays them from making a JT and the shrek taken away from volks.

Panthers are always effective and much better in pairs and way better then KT. Best front armor better speed going backwards then any allied tank don't understand how you even lose one if I can keep my slow ass shermans alive.

Also this thread was about whermacht "get out of jail abilities" not okw derail johnny.
12 Jun 2015, 16:32 PM
#116
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2015, 05:43 AMJohnnyB

Before latest patch, there were cheesee tactics that people were tempted to use because they were making things easier for you (less micro for instance). Besides these tactics there were others, harder to use, but effective nontheless.
After latest patch, when OKW was nerfed, the cheesee tactics remain the only ones viable, if you want to win, of course. Anything else you do, you are next to dead. So now, these cheesee tactics are not only easier, but necessary, and they are still failing in almost 50% of cases.


Kinda reminds me situation with Soviets throughout all patches since March, don't you agree?
Though I'm not saying that it is good or justified by Soviet having same poor choices in current meta.
12 Jun 2015, 16:35 PM
#117
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 588



Kinda reminds me situation with Soviets throughout all patches since March, don't you agree?
Though I'm not saying that it is good or justified by Soviet having same poor choices in current meta.


In team games 2v2 and up soviet are often forced into the call in meta simply because USF can't do that we have no late game tank really other than spammed e8s I guess. If USF had a heavy tank commander maybe the soviets wouldn't have to be relied on to bring there heavy armor every battle.
12 Jun 2015, 16:39 PM
#118
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 588

The thing that can make CAS dominate, is the spam of inf with plenty of munis for upgrades, topped off with air support that really allows you to dominate (aka cheese), but it is possible for a good enemy to pick you to pieces with armour, so long as they keep your army in check and its not allowed to snow ball.

If you DO decide to teck to P4 with CAS, you are instantly hurting the amount of infatry AND planes you field, because tecking costs plenty of MANPOWER and fuel.. so CAS then becomes more rounded, but not as powerful.

Its powerful for the same reason Mech Assault and Stug Es are powerful, it is one of few Werh doctrines that has some impact without investing teck heavily in manpower, allowing you to field a decent sized infatry force.


How are you going to pick them apart with armor when cas can one shot multiple e8s and anything USF has armor wise in one click of a button. Watch my replay.

http://www.coh2.org/replay/35420/bullshit-cas

I out played this guy and killed multiple tigers with out losing any e8s, then because of CAS I cannot even repair them in my own base. I out played him armor wise. If the e8s would of been able to survive then the attrition of wiping his inf would of started, but no thanks to click of a button he just erases my armor from the game. I keep making more e8s and taking out tigers and he just calls in cas and erases all surviving e8s with one click easy.
12 Jun 2015, 22:27 PM
#119
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1068

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2015, 16:39 PMRocket


How are you going to pick them apart with armor when cas can one shot multiple e8s and anything USF has armor wise in one click of a button.



I was talking about CAS.. Close air support doctrine. If you go no armour you get better use of the planes and more well equipped inf. But if you teck, you lose some of that edge, so a good enemy can pick you appart with mediums
12 Jun 2015, 22:47 PM
#120
avatar of Goldeneale

Posts: 176

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2015, 16:39 PMRocket


How are you going to pick them apart with armor when cas can one shot multiple e8s and anything USF has armor wise in one click of a button. Watch my replay.

http://www.coh2.org/replay/35420/bullshit-cas

I out played this guy and killed multiple tigers with out losing any e8s, then because of CAS I cannot even repair them in my own base. I out played him armor wise. If the e8s would of been able to survive then the attrition of wiping his inf would of started, but no thanks to click of a button he just erases my armor from the game. I keep making more e8s and taking out tigers and he just calls in cas and erases all surviving e8s with one click easy.


But... there's no Tiger in CAS...
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