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How are you supposed to counter Guards Motor as OKW?

14 Apr 2015, 21:27 PM
#1
avatar of Rollo

Posts: 738

Well since the last patch I think it's fairly safe to say every Soviet player and his grandmother is using Guards Motor against OKW. It was a good doctrine choice before but now it's even better post Obers/KT Nerf and the Guards rifle buff which now makes them extremely viable Infantry.

I guess I made this thread to shed some insight on possible BO/doctrine choice or general strategy to counter it as I've seen a lot of players ingame and on here in the forums saying how much they struggle against it.

The latest hans game vs Paul I think shows a good mix of its strengths and how OKW can struggle against certain features (the lack of soviets needing to tech, the strength of the 120mm, guards and the late game T-34/85's combined with Mark Target)



So a few points to get the thread started:

How are OKW supposed to deal with the sheer flood of conspam that usually occurs? Usually 5 or so squads into guards?

How are OKW supposed to counter the 120mm (especially on maps like Semois) where it's quite normal for them to survive the entire game with 30-40 kills as OKW lack any form of indirect fire to counter barrage?

What's the best doctrine choice to counter? (Fortifications I find useless as the pak43 is dead MP due to the 120)

How are you supposed to deal with T34/85 spam? (especially when he can get two T-34's for roughly the same price as a single panther)

If some better OKW players than myself would like to chime in and share some wisdom on what you do ingame or strat wise it would be much appreciated.
15 Apr 2015, 10:31 AM
#2
avatar of niksa

Posts: 64

Yeah i feel your pain, how many time I lose to players whit this doctrine and they were much worse then me.
That 120 mortar is such grrrrrrr,so what I do against that some say stuka if he dont have any tech first,but that mortar is uncounterable.Allways after perfect stuka barrage have one man left who want die and soon his tanks will roll in to finish my stuka,if i go fortification he will blow my pak whit mortar so that is no no.Kt is perfect counter but its risk because you will lose on Vps usually.


OKW Scavenge Doctrine Strategy is nice so kubel,3 volks medic truck(in base) 4 volk if he is spamming inf go inf support gun very good this patch if that mortar is in range attack him t3 tech again very defensive placment because of 120.Obers and build panther dont go luch because he will have his t34 85 soon after to counter him and better to have some vet on your panther before those t34 85 wolfs arrive.That panther tank is the key you need to preserve him and vet him up,becuse that mark targer is very dengerus,If he is still hevy on infanty go ostwind if not tech to Kt,allways have full health squads because of squad wipes try not to blobb too much,and allways when you have opportunity try to attack whit obers his mortar,u have Infiltration granades in inf combat to give u some advantage.
ps.sry for my english
15 Apr 2015, 11:46 AM
#3
avatar of Sarantini
Honorary Member Badge
Donator 22

Posts: 2181

Dealing with conspam relies on keeping your kubel on range and the Sturmpio healthy to provide repairs and repel cons closing in. The volks should be used to stall in buildings or behind green cover.
Panther is probably the tank you should go for, with some schrek support it can take on the 85s.
The 120mm is indeed a giant pain, I haven't found a good solution against that. Calling in JLI works once but is I think the best commander as niksa said above
15 Apr 2015, 18:00 PM
#4
avatar of Soheil

Posts: 658

hey,all okw players have this problem....in urban map like semo u said,i usually choose luft wafe.falshmjaeger can eat that 120 in sec specially with their nades.but in the map like minsk u must close urself to flank(need good micro) or make stuka.
15 Apr 2015, 18:03 PM
#5
avatar of Burts

Posts: 1702

on a map like semois - here is your problem


Semoisky (summer version especially) is probaly the most allied favoured map in the rotation.
17 Apr 2015, 13:38 PM
#6
avatar of S0_L337_1T_HURTS

Posts: 99

As others stated above, the game is currently broken for axis, especially for OKW which has less options to deal with SOVIET than OST. Welcome to reality.
17 Apr 2015, 14:11 PM
#7
avatar of keithsboredom

Posts: 117

As others stated above, the game is currently broken for axis, especially for OKW which has less options to deal with SOVIET than OST. Welcome to reality.


The asymmetry of the game is supposed to be designed to have the axis player favor an aggressive approach and are "supposed" to have an offensive advantage on players that spend their resources on defensive/static/indirect options. The axis simply lack decent indirect options, which is only exacerbated when the soviets get the best mortar in the game via a call in(no teching required).

I think the games more balanced than its ever been but call-ins will forever result in massive balance issues. There is a reason RTSs were designed with a teching scheme, without it the game needs a better system than the current CPs to limit players simply stalling until they can call in a unit.

I will never understand why call in units don't also have a building requirement.
20 Apr 2015, 10:07 AM
#8
avatar of Von Sturm

Posts: 50

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2015, 21:27 PMRollo
Well since the last patch I think it's fairly safe to say every Soviet player and his grandmother is using Guards Motor against OKW. It was a good doctrine choice before but now it's even better post Obers/KT Nerf and the Guards rifle buff which now makes them extremely viable Infantry.

I guess I made this thread to shed some insight on possible BO/doctrine choice or general strategy to counter it as I've seen a lot of players ingame and on here in the forums saying how much they struggle against it.

The latest hans game vs Paul I think shows a good mix of its strengths and how OKW can struggle against certain features (the lack of soviets needing to tech, the strength of the 120mm, guards and the late game T-34/85's combined with Mark Target)



So a few points to get the thread started:

How are OKW supposed to deal with the sheer flood of conspam that usually occurs? Usually 5 or so squads into guards?

How are OKW supposed to counter the 120mm (especially on maps like Semois) where it's quite normal for them to survive the entire game with 30-40 kills as OKW lack any form of indirect fire to counter barrage?

What's the best doctrine choice to counter? (Fortifications I find useless as the pak43 is dead MP due to the 120)

How are you supposed to deal with T34/85 spam? (especially when he can get two T-34's for roughly the same price as a single panther)

If some better OKW players than myself would like to chime in and share some wisdom on what you do ingame or strat wise it would be much appreciated.


You are not supposed to win with OKW since the last patch :

- Guard spam rip your vehicule AND your infantry off.
- Inkillable HM rape your defenses from outter space as well.
- Cons spam fuel struggled you.
- Died at 15'' when 85 are out.
- Rage.
- Wait for a decent patch or another stupid OP commander ...

CMG is now the most OP commander in the game. It have every perefect counter for every phase of the game and you can't affrod decent one (like KT, obers ...) ... you can't do nothing against that shit.
25 May 2015, 12:52 PM
#9
avatar of niutudis

Posts: 276

God, I hate to play against that commander.

You can have mapcontrol, vp-advantage and everything is nice, but then boom byebye first vetted squad.... "oh look he took gmc, who would have thought that..."

Then,even if you manage to keep his army back- t34/85 says hello. If you manage to kill one of those 2 - next thing you will see is 3 of them.
At this point, raketenwerfer and volksschrecks are useles- well they were not very usefull against guards anyway and most of your vetted units died already. Obers? Uhmmm well, they are the nicest target for the 120mm...
GG wp!!!


The problem is guards and the t34´s are good against Infantry and vehicles/tanks, while okw has only specialised units and on top of that okw tanks are more expensive.

On top of that he gets the mortar, which will pay for itself by just positioning that thing somewhere, or alternatively take out the trucks without risk and counter pak/raketen with precisionstrike.


I hate it. :*(
25 May 2015, 13:41 PM
#10
avatar of Corsin

Posts: 600

Call-ins shouldnt be call-ins they should simply unlock units to be built within tech structures.

E.g : T34/85s out of the T3 building
120mm out of the T2 building
Guards out of the T1 building....


Rather than instant call-ins. make them unlock the units in the tech tree....

If they did this for all factions, game would be alot less stale and we will actually see medium tank fights. Rather than every game tigers vs T34/85s
25 May 2015, 13:53 PM
#11
avatar of niutudis

Posts: 276

jump backJump back to quoted post25 May 2015, 13:41 PMCorsin
Call-ins shouldnt be call-ins they should simply unlock units to be built within tech structures.

E.g : T34/85s out of the T3 building
120mm out of the T2 building
Guards out of the T1 building....


Rather than instant call-ins. make them unlock the units in the tech tree....

If they did this for all factions, game would be alot less stale.


Guards in t1 - m3 + guards ultimate earlygame

120mm in t2 - mg + 120mm+ at to make sure axis can´t come back into battle

t34 in t3 - ok, you will never need it

gg at about 10 minutes on most 1vs1-maps
27 May 2015, 08:11 AM
#12
avatar of Corsin

Posts: 600



Guards in t1 - m3 + guards ultimate earlygame

120mm in t2 - mg + 120mm+ at to make sure axis can´t come back into battle

t34 in t3 - ok, you will never need it

gg at about 10 minutes on most 1vs1-maps


You do realize that this can already be done?

The 2 CP will still apply to the guards and mortar. but will UNLOCK them in the T1/T2 building...


(The only difference is that players will actually have to build the buildings first). Rather than be able to skip teching altogether and just rely on call in unit spam.


Im not sure how you think the game would be gg faster than it is now? when people are being made to buy tech buildings? lol
27 May 2015, 11:47 AM
#13
avatar of niutudis

Posts: 276

jump backJump back to quoted post27 May 2015, 08:11 AMCorsin


You do realize that this can already be done?

The 2 CP will still apply to the guards and mortar. but will UNLOCK them in the T1/T2 building...


(The only difference is that players will actually have to build the buildings first). Rather than be able to skip teching altogether and just rely on call in unit spam.


Im not sure how you think the game would be gg faster than it is now? when people are being made to buy tech buildings? lol


ok, This makes more sense...
28 May 2015, 13:39 PM
#14
avatar of niksa

Posts: 64


Stolen 120 mortar in axis hand ;)
30 May 2015, 03:05 AM
#15
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1905

Here are a couple of the times that worked out:


Crossing in the Woods

Langreskaya

IMO, either Panzerfusiliers or JL's are needed because if you can't see at least as far as the Soviet, then you'll get pummeled by the 120's. I have had games where even keeping squads moving did not help and bled a lot of mp to the 120's.

Langreskaya in particular seems really bad when they go Guard Motor. The one win I posted was probably the only time I won against Guard Motor on that map and it wasn't against a good opponent. Most of the time, I get pushed back into my base by the constant pounding, look out from the base with the upgraded PF's and think "What the f*** am I going to do now?"
aaa
30 May 2015, 04:10 AM
#16
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1485

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2015, 21:27 PMRollo
How are OKW supposed to counter the 120mm (especially on maps like Semois) where it's quite normal for them to survive the entire game with 30-40 kills




30-40 kills per mortar ahahaha. Whats your 1v1 rank? 30-40 kills can be if 3-4 players blob all together the whole game without doing anythin g else.
Ussualy 120 has 5-10 kills so I m using different commander tank hunter.
aaa
30 May 2015, 04:23 AM
#17
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1485

jump backJump back to quoted post28 May 2015, 13:39 PMniksa

Stolen 120 mortar in axis hand ;)


How would you estimate cons with ptrs and guards VS INFANTRY AND MGS?
Considering that guards doesnt benefit from cons upgrades and dont have speed and AT nades.
30 May 2015, 06:25 AM
#18
avatar of Iron Emperor

Posts: 1653

jump backJump back to quoted post30 May 2015, 04:10 AMaaa




30-40 kills per mortar ahahaha. Whats your 1v1 rank? 30-40 kills can be if 3-4 players blob all together the whole game without doing anythin g else.
Ussualy 120 has 5-10 kills so I m using different commander tank hunter.


Rank question immediatly... ask how long his average games are and also consider the squad whipe ability. If your game takes minimally 30 min each time it's a ok number to work with
30 May 2015, 14:24 PM
#19
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1905

jump backJump back to quoted post30 May 2015, 04:10 AMaaa




30-40 kills per mortar ahahaha. Whats your 1v1 rank? 30-40 kills can be if 3-4 players blob all together the whole game without doing anythin g else.
Ussualy 120 has 5-10 kills so I m using different commander tank hunter.


Tank hunter commander doesn't have 120's. If it did, axis players would be going apoplectic.

I use 120's a lot in 4v4's on city maps and get those kill numbers and sometimes more. Don't remember ever getting those numbers in 1v1 or 2v2. Kill numbers are significantly worse versus better players.
30 May 2015, 15:37 PM
#20
avatar of some one

Posts: 934

1) Preserve units
2) get AA halftrack
3) get Stuka
4) get jpz4 (+mines) and (Shrecks)and (Puma optional)
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