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10 Apr 2015, 17:43 PM
#41
avatar of G4bb4_G4nd4lf
Donator 33

Posts: 658

What would be the point of getting Volks if they didn't have an AI upgrade? Since they are extremely crap at fighting enemy infantry and elite infantry?

If your going to take the shrek away you need to give the Volk squad something in return. And you know that received accuracy stuff everyone hated on Volks? Sturms still have that.


I don't think an AI upgrade is necessary. They'd be like better scaling Conscripts.

They'd need support to fight elite infantry just like every other basic inf squad. The difference is that OKW has non-doctrinal elite inf unlike Allies.

Received accuracy was a problem on Volks, yes. I don't think that it would be a problem on Sturms. They're more vulnerable to explosives and you had to retreat them once they have 2 men left - otherwise they might drop their shrecks.

It's better to give shreks to a squad that you actually have to micro because it's more expensive and easier to lose if just yolorushed into tanks.
10 Apr 2015, 17:43 PM
#42
avatar of Vuther
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 Apr 2015, 02:09 AMAladdin


volks are the weakest basic infantry of all faction. As OKW, you need to use other infantry units such as obers, pfs, falls, JLI, or even sp. as AI units to play more competitively and effectively. while the advantage of keeping volks within your army is to give them shreck (cause they lose vs other faction infs 1v1)

Until they get vetted, at which the title goes to Scripts. And not even at vet 5, at vet 2. Volks will have -10% received accuracy, +30% accuracy and -20% weapon cooldown while Scripts will just have +40% accuracy (...and +25% molotov range. Ooooooooooooooooh), though Scripts will get the better end of the deal at vet 3, but it's definitely over for them at the vet 4 they will never have.

And I did not suggest to not utilize those other options. I do not suggest Soviets players to never use Snipers, Shocks and Guards, USF players to never upgrade BARs or get Paras, or Wehr players to never upgrade LMG42s - nor do I suggest OKW players to never use the many other AI infantry options they have available to them.

But Scripts still make Volks look like gods of war mid and late game.
10 Apr 2015, 18:01 PM
#43
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



I don't think an AI upgrade is necessary. They'd be like better scaling Conscripts.

They'd need support to fight elite infantry just like every other basic inf squad. The difference is that OKW has non-doctrinal elite inf unlike Allies.

Received accuracy was a problem on Volks, yes. I don't think that it would be a problem on Sturms. They're more vulnerable to explosives and you had to retreat them once they have 2 men left - otherwise they might drop their shrecks.

It's better to give shreks to a squad that you actually have to micro because it's more expensive and easier to lose if just yolorushed into tanks.


Why would you get Volks then ever instead of just making other things? Grens are desired for the LMG upgrade, if you couldn't make LMG's on them then people would just find another infantry unit to make.

I would be more than fine with Sturms getting the shrek if you gave Volks a decent AI upgrade like some G43's or StG 44's.

EDIT: And their difference to conscripts would be the fact that cons are desired for things like merge squad, the PTRS, and their cheap grenades and AT nades, nobody would make more than 2 Volks if all you used them for was the snare since you don't want to be spamming nades with volks.
10 Apr 2015, 18:16 PM
#44
avatar of G4bb4_G4nd4lf
Donator 33

Posts: 658



Why would you get Volks then ever instead of just making other things? Grens are desired for the LMG upgrade, if you couldn't make LMG's on them then people would just find another infantry unit to make.

I would be more than fine with Sturms getting the shrek if you gave Volks a decent AI upgrade like some G43's or StG 44's.


Really? So if Grens didn't have LMGs...you'd do....pio spam?

I don't think so.

What other things apart from Volks could people make? Kubels don't capture you territory, Sturms are too expensive.

I also doubt that everybody would go for call-in inf every game - too expensive.

Fact is: You need relatively cheap basic inf like Grens/Volks/Cons/Rifles whether they can be upgraded or not.

That's why people make Cons. They can't be upgraded by anything without commander but they gain you map control. You need Volks for the same reason - map conrol. They aren't even that bad - they are balanced vs Conscripts, they lose vs Riflemen but so do Grens.


StGs and G43s are not possible anyway because Volks don't have the animation for these weapons.

If they had to get an upgrade I'd just increase their kar98 damage per upgrade (e.g. from 10 to 13).

10 Apr 2015, 18:19 PM
#45
avatar of Vuther
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Really? So if Grens didn't have LMGs...you'd do....pio spam?

I don't think so.

Pio and 42 spam.

It might actually work these days...
10 Apr 2015, 18:20 PM
#46
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



Really? So if Grens didn't have LMGs...you'd do....pio spam?

I don't think so.

What other things apart from Volks could people make? Kubels don't capture you territory, Sturms are too expensive.

I also doubt that everybody would go for call-in inf every game - too expensive.

Fact is: You need relatively cheap basic inf like Grens/Volks/Cons/Rifles whether they can be upgraded or not.

That's why people make Cons. They can't be upgraded by anything without commander but they gain you map control. You need Volks for the same reason - map conrol. They aren't even that bad - they are balanced vs Conscripts, they lose vs Riflemen but so do Grens.


StGs and G43s are not possible anyway because Volks don't have the animation for these weapons.

If they had to get an upgrade I'd just increase their kar98 damage per upgrade (e.g. from 10 to 13).



Volks have animations for firing rifles, so they can use the G43. I don't know about the StG 44 but it would make sense of them to keep some sort of upgrade to stay relevant.

And yes you could go for call in infantry, Panzerfuss spam would become even more common since they already have a snare (if kind of a shit one), an extra man, and a AI upgrade as well!

I still fail to see your point about why Volks shouldn't get an AI upgrade when every basic infantry in game is capable of getting one.
10 Apr 2015, 18:44 PM
#48
avatar of G4bb4_G4nd4lf
Donator 33

Posts: 658



Volks have animations for firing rifles, so they can use the G43. I don't know about the StG 44 but it would make sense of them to keep some sort of upgrade to stay relevant.

And yes you could go for call in infantry, Panzerfuss spam would become even more common since they already have a snare (if kind of a shit one), an extra man, and a AI upgrade as well!

I still fail to see your point about why Volks shouldn't get an AI upgrade when every basic infantry in game is capable of getting one.


Yeah, that was my fault. They can use G43s.

Of course you can go for call-in inf but 1) doing so every game would be boring and 2)as I mentioned earlier, that would be a huge manpower drain.

My point is that Volks don't need to have an AI upgrade. I wouldn't mind if they get one but it's not absolutely necessary. They do a good job vs enemy inf - especially early game with Kubel support.

Volks could get an AI upgrade unlocked when T1 and T2 are converted so that people don't have to rely on Obers every game to deal with infantry.

As I said, they're balanced vs Cons, meaning that they can win/or lose depending on the situation. Once they start vetting up (whch they still can rather quickly - Pzfaust hits give them nice EXP boosts) they surpass Cons.

Every squad except Cons you mean (at least without the right doctrine).
10 Apr 2015, 18:52 PM
#49
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1

Pupchen is fine now, the only problem-like any other unit-is that since the gun does not provide cover, you have to place them in green cover which makes them very vulnerable to insta-wipes. If you get it to vet3 (which is not that hard) it will counter almost everything.

10 Apr 2015, 18:56 PM
#50
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



Yeah, that was my fault. They can use G43s.

Of course you can go for call-in inf but 1) doing so every game would be boring and 2)as I mentioned earlier, that would be a huge manpower drain.

My point is that Volks don't need to have an AI upgrade. I wouldn't mind if they get one but it's not absolutely necessary. They do a good job vs enemy inf - especially early game with Kubel support.

Volks could get an AI upgrade unlocked when T1 and T2 are converted so that people don't have to rely on Obers every game to deal with infantry.

As I said, they're balanced vs Cons, meaning that they can win/or lose depending on the situation. Once they start vetting up (whch they still can rather quickly - Pzfaust hits give them nice EXP boosts) they surpass Cons.

Every squad except Cons you mean (at least without the right doctrine).


They don't do a good job versus enemy infantry compared to literally every other infantry unit in the game. The point of volks is they are cheap plentiful and diverse in roll thanks to the shrek, take the diverse part away and all you have is a unit that doesn't get objectively better than cons till vet 3.

Cons still at least get one with a doctrine as you pointed out, I still don't see why Volks getting a small AI upgrade like say just 2 regular StG 44's for a tiny bit more close range fire power would be out of place once you have converted your first HQ for 90 munitions so you either chose between Shreks for Sturms or StG's for volks.

Pfuss don't give a huge MP drain at all. If you make Volks a lot less useful people will just find other stuff to spam and abuse. I would much rather keep Volks relevant.
10 Apr 2015, 20:17 PM
#51
avatar of MajorBloodnok
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Posts: 10627 | Subs: 9

Flame post invised. Please do not:)

Backto topic
10 Apr 2015, 21:17 PM
#52
avatar of G4bb4_G4nd4lf
Donator 33

Posts: 658


Cons still at least get one with a doctrine as you pointed out, I still don't see why Volks getting a small AI upgrade like say just 2 regular StG 44's for a tiny bit more close range fire power would be out of place once you have converted your first HQ for 90 munitions so you either chose between Shreks for Sturms or StG's for volks.


I didn't say it was "out of place", I just don't think it is necessary.

2 StGs for 90MU...yeah, as if anyone would buy that.

I'd prefer a simple damage buff for their Kar98s.

60-70 ammo for a damage buff to 14 would be OK I think. This upgrade can be purchased when T1 and T2 has been built. If you go for T1/T2 --> T4 you can get Obers. An AI upgrade for Volks isn't needed then IMO.

Right now, Volks Kars deal 8 10 damage per hit = 10 8 hits to kill a model. 14 damage = 6 hits to kill one model.

For comparison: Cons rifles deal 16 damage per hit = 5 hits to kill one model. Same goes for Grens. M1 Garands deal 8 damage per hit.
10 Apr 2015, 21:23 PM
#53
avatar of Vuther
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Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1



I didn't say it was "out of place", I just don't think it is necessary.

2 StGs for 90MU...yeah, as if anyone would buy that.

I'd prefer a simple damage buff for their Kar98s.

60-70 ammo for a damage buff to 14 would be OK I think. This upgrade can be purchased when T1 and T2 has been built. If you go for T1/T2 --> T4 you can get Obers. An AI upgrade for Volks isn't needed then IMO.

Right now, Volks Kars deal 8 damage per hit = 10 hits to kill a model. 14 damage = 6 hits to kill one model.

For comparison: Cons rifles deal 16 damage per hit = 5 hits to kill one model. Same goes for Grens. M1 Garands deal 8 damage per hit.

Actually, Volks do 10 damage per hit.
10 Apr 2015, 21:27 PM
#54
avatar of G4bb4_G4nd4lf
Donator 33

Posts: 658

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Apr 2015, 21:23 PMVuther

Actually, Volks do 10 damage per hit.


Yeah, my fault.
10 Apr 2015, 21:31 PM
#55
avatar of FaustCostBulletin

Posts: 521



Yeah, that was my fault. They can use G43s.


Ahem. I should point out that this is simply not true. The only weapon Volksgrenadiers can use are the slot weapons, Kar98k, and Panzerfaust.

There are files that dictate what weapon a unit can use, which currently cannot be edited in the current mod tools. Weapon classification does not mean anything. MP44 and BAR use the same animations, surely you haven't found the latter to be unusuable by Volksgrenadiers?
10 Apr 2015, 21:33 PM
#56
avatar of MajorBloodnok
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Posts: 10627 | Subs: 9

Moved to COH2 Gameplay
10 Apr 2015, 21:34 PM
#57
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



I didn't say it was "out of place", I just don't think it is necessary.

2 StGs for 90MU...yeah, as if anyone would buy that.

I'd prefer a simple damage buff for their Kar98s.

60-70 ammo for a damage buff to 14 would be OK I think. This upgrade can be purchased when T1 and T2 has been built. If you go for T1/T2 --> T4 you can get Obers. An AI upgrade for Volks isn't needed then IMO.

Right now, Volks Kars deal 8 10 damage per hit = 10 8 hits to kill a model. 14 damage = 6 hits to kill one model.

For comparison: Cons rifles deal 16 damage per hit = 5 hits to kill one model. Same goes for Grens. M1 Garands deal 8 damage per hit.


The StG has a fairly good weapon profile and Volks are fine at longer ranges, the point of getting 2 StG's + cold protection would be to give your Volks more firepower while also giving them the ability to be used in blizzard for sneaking.

Really any sort of AI upgrade would be good, just getting better KAR's seems silly when the OKW focused very heavily on widespread use of automatic weaponry, which should be better reflected in game.
10 Apr 2015, 21:41 PM
#58
avatar of G4bb4_G4nd4lf
Donator 33

Posts: 658



Ahem. I should point out that this is simply not true. The only weapon Volksgrenadiers can use are the slot weapons, Kar98k, and Panzerfaust.

There are files that dictate what weapon a unit can use, which currently cannot be edited in the current mod tools. Weapon classification does not mean anything. MP44 and BAR use the same animations, surely you haven't found the latter to be unusuable by Volksgrenadiers?


So, I was right at the beginning...I was sure that I heard someone saying Volks couldn't use G43s.
10 Apr 2015, 21:41 PM
#59
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1



Ahem. I should point out that this is simply not true. The only weapon Volksgrenadiers can use are the slot weapons, Kar98k, and Panzerfaust.

There are files that dictate what weapon a unit can use, which currently cannot be edited in the current mod tools. Weapon classification does not mean anything. MP44 and BAR use the same animations, surely you haven't found the latter to be unusuable by Volksgrenadiers?

Wehrmacht G43s can be dropped though, right? I'd be pretty sure Relic would have allowed anything that can pick up weapons to be able to use all of said droppable weapons.
10 Apr 2015, 21:42 PM
#60
avatar of FaustCostBulletin

Posts: 521

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Apr 2015, 21:41 PMVuther

Wehrmacht G43s can be dropped though, right?


Negative.
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