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Sittard Summer - Does not Belong in Rotation

nee
1 Apr 2015, 08:53 AM
#21
avatar of nee

Posts: 1216

I like the map, but I've also played it to death before it got put into rotation. It's clearly a niche map with a particular playstyle.

If I were to remake it, I'd have one or more of the crossings include a collapsed path, similar to how LAnzur Factory has their crossings. And with that, one or more additional ways to cross, so it's not as much of a cramped choke fest. IMO this made Lanzur interesting since you couldn't possibly choke off EVERY point at once. Not unless you have a four-player team and they're all Elefant/ PaK43 commander selected.
1 Apr 2015, 09:14 AM
#22
avatar of MakaN

Posts: 7

With all due respect for creators, this map shoudnt be played in automatch, as people has said, it is only and arty map. It's impossible to flank, you dont need micro, you dont need skill to move your squads and tanks, you only need arty to use it behind the frontline. the games in this map wont be so fun as in opened maps
1 Apr 2015, 09:40 AM
#23
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1790 | Subs: 1

Here's the thing. We all appreciate the effort map makers put into making maps. And it's exciting to see your map is selected by relic for the automatch ( :snfQuinn: ), BUT:

First of all, this map is an arty/spam fest. The fact that it was popular is irrelevant. I myself sometimes pick a campy map and compstomp the hell out of that map. Justine Bieber also has a buttload of fans (Sorry, I know comparing a map to Justine Bieber is the worst insult, I apologize).

It's not personal when we say "hey, I don't really like this map and I don't wanna waste a veto on it because it should not be in automatch pool in the first place.

And finally, no offense, but the logic of "If you don't like it, make a better one" is childish. If you go to a pizza place and they give you bad pizza, they can't say "If you don't like may pizza, make a better one". By that logic Relic can say "If you think the game is not balanced, make a better game and balance it".

Again, the effort is appreciated and it's good to have these kind of maps for custom games, and we enjoy them. But a campy map is bad for automach.
1 Apr 2015, 09:55 AM
#24
avatar of dasheepeh

Posts: 2056 | Subs: 1

No offense to Monolithic Bacon and Mirage (map looks very good), but this map really should not be in the automatch pool.

Why?

1. There are three bridges in the middle of the map. They are the only ways to get around. This map looks very similar to Lyon.
2. The map makes players camp. Instead of maneuver and skill, the entire map turns into an arty fest. Imagine Stukas and Katyushas bombing your guys all the time.
3. Bridges repair too fast. I can see why the bridges repair fast in order to prevent camping (i know this contradicts my second point), but the enemy just repairs it in less than five seconds.
4. Since the map becomes a static camp fest, all payers eventually stockpile a ton of resources, leading to heavy tank spam and call-ins.

I really think this map does not belong in competitive automatch.


Wont happen in 3v3 / 4v4.
1 Apr 2015, 10:01 AM
#25
avatar of MonolithicBacon

Posts: 952 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Apr 2015, 09:40 AMRMMLz
The fact that it was popular is irrelevant. I myself sometimes pick a campy map and compstomp the hell out of that map. Justine Bieber also has a buttload of fans (Sorry, I know comparing a map to Justine Bieber is the worst insult, I apologize).


Before this comment, there was no offence taken. Now you can go die in a fire. :D

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Apr 2015, 09:40 AMRMMLz
It's not personal when we say "hey, I don't really like this map and I don't wanna waste a veto on it because it should not be in automatch pool in the first place.

And finally, no offense, but the logic of "If you don't like it, make a better one" is childish. If you go to a pizza place and they give you bad pizza, they can't say "If you don't like may pizza, make a better one". By that logic Relic can say "If you think the game is not balanced, make a better game and balance it".


I'm not taking all comments personally. Only those that are taking a stab at "what maps should have". Jadame's comment was heartless and is contrary to everything that community map makers work towards. At the end of the day, we are creating what we want, and what we hope others will want; what should or shouldn't be included is contrary to creation. What is unfortunate is the amount of hate out there for lots of maps (not just Sittard) from people who have never tried to actually create what they want instead.

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Apr 2015, 09:40 AMRMMLz
Again, the effort is appreciated and it's good to have these kind of maps for custom games, and we enjoy them. But a campy map is bad for automach.


And with this I agree completely. If I could have chosen a map to be added to automatch, it would not have been Sittard. I was happy with the Community Spotlight adding maps to the map lists, rather than the automatch, so that players have the choice.

With any luck, I can have Relic at least demote Sittard to 3vs3 automatch only, which should be more appropriate, or off the automatch list completely.


Btw, Monolith, if you want to keep your map in auto match, i suggest making auto match version where bridges on left and right side being replaced with VERY WIDE TERRAN PASSAGES. Then at least players would have some space to maneuver and develop their strategy.


Although making map changes is simple, changing maps on the rotation is not. Consider how long it has taken for the first map pool to finish and the next to begin. This was supposed to be a 3 month rotation.
1 Apr 2015, 10:20 AM
#26
avatar of Oberstleutnant

Posts: 36

Great map thanks monolith for the time and effort
1 Apr 2015, 13:16 PM
#27
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1790 | Subs: 1



...


I'm not taking all comments personally. Only those that are taking a stab at "what maps should have". Jadame's comment was heartless and is contrary to everything that community map makers work towards. At the end of the day, we are creating what we want, and what we hope others will want; what should or shouldn't be included is contrary to creation. What is unfortunate is the amount of hate out there for lots of maps (not just Sittard) from people who have never tried to actually create what they want instead.



...

With any luck, I can have Relic at least demote Sittard to 3vs3 automatch only, which should be more appropriate, or off the automatch list completely.

...


Fair points. Hope Relic listens to you as the original map maker and, keep it up mate.
1 Apr 2015, 15:16 PM
#28
avatar of pigsoup
Patrion 14

Posts: 4299 | Subs: 2

...
But can anyone honestly say that they are playing 4vs4 maps without expecting spam? Honestly?


jadame probably belongs to the top 4v4 team. before, he was out of order of being rude and overreaching. now you belittle all 4v4 players, including your maps' biggest playerbase just to get back at him.

--------------------------

relic adding this map due to being popular really saddens me. if that was the case for real, why dont they just add 10 most subscribed maps on the workshop? oh btw, 'cept one they are all bridge maps and the last one being a snake map.

with already known problems in Wolf's Lair and Pavlov's house and one map (can't remember which one) not even having custom load background makes me wonder just how much slipped through their heavy QA sessions.
1 Apr 2015, 15:31 PM
#29
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

Bridge maps are the worst for auto match games, aside from Comp Stomps. The bridge maps offer no room for tactical play but instead arty spam. I will be vetoing this map, it is a Rostov replacement. I am sorry to say.
1 Apr 2015, 15:31 PM
#30
avatar of Zupadupadude

Posts: 618

It's an impressive map visually, as most of Bacon's maps are. Although I know it's probably not a very good idea to have this one in the automatch pool, doesn't everyone like a campy shitfest CoH game every once in a while? Some of the most intense games for me were comp stomps on bridgemaps with friends.
1 Apr 2015, 15:32 PM
#31
avatar of MonolithicBacon

Posts: 952 | Subs: 3

jadame probably belongs to the top 4v4 team. before, he was out of order of being rude and overreaching. now you belittle all 4v4 players, including your maps' biggest playerbase just to get back at him.


Do you really think that my intention was to belittle all of the players that support me? What benefit would that really be to me?

I'm simply making the point that you cannot expect a 4vs4 game without spam. Regardless of players or AI, it's going to happen. My point is that expecting automatch 4vs4 maps to be any different is redundant: resources, population and size remains the same.


relic adding this map due to being popular really saddens me. if that was the case for real, why dont they just add 10 most subscribed maps on the workshop? oh btw, 'cept one they are all bridge maps and the last one being a snake map.


Trust me, I agree with you on this. Popular does not mean that it's good. Some of the best maps (in terms of quality) have been lost in the Workshop, never to be found or played the way that they might deserve to be.

You're not alone there. But what can we really do about it?
1 Apr 2015, 16:00 PM
#32
avatar of Meliorare

Posts: 48

This map is absolute disgrace and should be shoot then burned then shoot again just in case this abomination might survived. If i never see it again it would be too soon.

I have three "how to" tips for huge game modes map makers to make their maps amazing:

NEVER make maps with bridges.
NEVER make narrow maps with tunnels such as Angermunde and City17.
NEVER make winter maps with deep snow anywhere.


So I should just delete all of the stuff that makes them interesting? Bridges, snow, and chokepoints aren't the problem. They're fine when done tastefully, but are obviously bad when used in abundance.

Edit: This map has deep snow. I've put an ungodly amount of hours into it, it's my best supported, highest-detailed map in my workshop. Guess I should just delete it. /s
1 Apr 2015, 16:18 PM
#33
avatar of The Silver Sage

Posts: 183

I played the map there just a few hours ago for the first time and was instantly reminded of Lyon from COH1. Then the game broke down into stuka spam with mgs and at guns covering the bridges with the north and south passages being destroyed by a stiff breeze.

I was not prepared in terms of having an arty doctrine and katy vs stuka... well you know how that goes.
I ended up with an ISU-152 sitting in mid trying to stem the enemy but an elephant put a stop to that.

While it's nice to have varied playstyle, that kind of camp-fest gets boring quick, it just comes down to clicking the barrage button when cooldown is finished.
1 Apr 2015, 16:33 PM
#34
avatar of MajorBloodnok
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 314

Posts: 10622 | Subs: 9

I have edited out the more offensive ripostes.

Some replies also deserved to be invised, but Mono dealt with them, so they are left standing (by the skin of their teeth)

if you are not a creative person, or you cannot discuss matters in a polite and reasoned way, it may be best if you kept away from threads like this.

If there were one way I could think of to frighten away creativity, it would be publish some of the ignorant posts which it has been my pleasure to hide away from here.
1 Apr 2015, 19:04 PM
#35
avatar of The Silver Sage

Posts: 183

Also the doctrine with stuka and elefant is way too good on that map. Any allied arty is 1 shot by the stuka and recon and if you try to advance through that middle point get ready to lose your vehicles to the elefant.

Stuka forces you forward as you can't get more than 1 barrage off with the howis and then elefant pops your tanks as they get blocked crossing the only bridge in the city that isn't made of matchsticks.

Needless to say, instant veto for me. Map may look pretty but it's completely lacking in terms of depth.
1 Apr 2015, 19:35 PM
#36
avatar of Jadame!

Posts: 1122



So I should just delete all of the stuff that makes them interesting? Bridges, snow, and chokepoints aren't the problem. They're fine when done tastefully, but are obviously bad when used in abundance.

Edit: This map has deep snow. I've put an ungodly amount of hours into it, it's my best supported, highest-detailed map in my workshop. Guess I should just delete it. /s


Aside from my bad manners your example is 2v2 map and we discussing 4v4 maps here.

Deep snow brings a lot of imbalance into 4v4, just because deep snow allows okw players rush and cap important points even more ahead of Allies (kubel as well as sturm pios unaffected by rough terrain). Not to mention deep snow is extremely frustrating even without OKW presence, slowing troops and putting them into danger of being wiped on retreat (another advantage for Axis thanks to their superior long-range dps), limiting flanks and grenade dodges. It is horrible mechanic, everyone hates it so as blizzards. All 3 most banned 4v4 maps were either deep snow or thick mud which is re-colored deep snow (City 17 winter, Rostov, Hill). All of them removed from automatch for further improvements.

Tunnels nightmare for 4v4, because retreating tanks always risk to be blocked by team weapons or other tanks and lost as a result, and there a lot of tanks and team weapons around in 4v4. Undeserved tank losses bad both for gameplay and even more frustrating than deep snow. For example, on Ettelbruck even hmg can block tank movement on straight street between middle and right vp. Not to mention, again, limited flanks, ease to cover whole tunnel with just 1 at gun and extended potency of the mines due to chokepoints.

Bridges across deep rivers without a lot of alternative crossings even worse. Bridges have all problems of tunnels plus when you pushed away from them, it is gg. Regaining territory behind bridge is near impossible thanks to demo charges, mines, and near-dead bridge health when they reduced to very little hp by at guns/tanks ground attacks to blow bridge instantly with one more shoot when needed. Imagine Steppes with 3 bridges and deep river around bottom victory point. Whoever takes their opponent bridges first and covers them with mg, and later by mines and at guns, wins whole bottom for entire game. Who would play this map with such changes?

From my perspective, all 3 of those instances is just bad design which should be avoided. I am not a map maker to point you what is right and what is wrong, but i (may) have some understanding about influence of map design on 4v4 games flow.
1 Apr 2015, 19:46 PM
#37
avatar of Imagelessbean

Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1

First off thanks to the community members that made this map, looks like fun.

Secondly, as Bacon himself has already said, this does not belong in automatch. This map deserves its popularity but it is not for the competitive crowd.

Let's all congratulate Bacon for the work he has done, and just agree it should not be automatch. No need to be rude.
1 Apr 2015, 19:59 PM
#38
avatar of nigo
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 2118 | Subs: 14

First off thanks to the community members that made this map, looks like fun.

Secondly, as Bacon himself has already said, this does not belong in automatch. This map deserves its popularity but it is not for the competitive crowd.

Let's all congratulate Bacon for the work he has done, and just agree it should not be automatch. No need to be rude.


+1 on that, but at the same time I think the community deserves more MonolithBacon's maps in automatch:


Mono Steam worshop
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198013879847/myworkshopfiles/?appid=231430
1 Apr 2015, 20:06 PM
#39
avatar of The_rEd_bEar

Posts: 731

Jesus Christ i don't know why all of these scrubs are up set at bacon and mirage for they didn't do anything they just made a Damn map. It wasn't there choice to put in auto match it was relics.
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