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Five man grenadier squads are exactly what Ostheer need.

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11 Mar 2015, 20:32 PM
#61
avatar of Burts

Posts: 1702



You can keep the DPS and damage the same as it was before. So grens would preform exactly as they did before, but would be less vulnerable to nades and indirect fire.



Sigh. Let me explain this to you.


4X80 = 320 - that's what one grenadier squad health

6X80 = 480 - that's the health of one conscript squad.
Cons having more health means MORE dps is needed to kill them at the same rate as a 4 man squad.
This isin't exactly true since grens have the survivability of 4.4 models againts small arms, while cons have a 5.5 survivability.


If their DPS would be equal, cons would win every time.


As it stands now, grens need to do 50% more DPS just to match cons. (Which they already do)
http://www.coh2-stats.com/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&squad1=conscript_squad_mp&squad2=grenadier_squad_mp&commit=Compare


If grens had 5 men, grens would only need to have 25% more DPS to match cons.

Grens being 5 man without any other changes like LMG and DPS nerfs would make them beat conscripts and riflemen at all ranges, early, mid and late game.
11 Mar 2015, 20:37 PM
#62
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2015, 20:32 PMBurts



Sigh. Let me explain this to you.


4X80 = 320 - that's what one grenadier squad health

6X80 = 480 - that's the health of one conscript squad.


If their DPS would be equal, cons would win every time.


As it stands now, grens need to do 50% more DPS just to match cons. (Which they already do)
http://www.coh2-stats.com/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&squad1=conscript_squad_mp&squad2=grenadier_squad_mp&commit=Compare


If grens had 5 men, grens would only need to have 25% more DPS to match cons.

Grens being 5 man without any other changes like LMG and DPS nerfs would make them beat every conscripts and riflemen at all ranges, early, mid and late game.


You can reduce the DPS and damage of each individual model to make it so were grens are preforming exactly as they did before damage and DPS wise, but the 5th man makes it so they are less likely to get squad wiped.

Rifles would still beat them.

EDIT: I'm not saying this is a good idea, rather, that it wouldn't destroy the balance like you think.
11 Mar 2015, 20:45 PM
#63
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705



Sadly, my path finders, CEs and RE troops will say the same.


give them members,who cares.They aren't standard frontline infantry.
11 Mar 2015, 20:46 PM
#64
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2015, 18:47 PMKatitof

3 men pathfinder squads.
You can dream, but it will only be a dream-always.


I know such dreams give u nightmares,ur too used to one shotting and rolling over ost for ur autowins.
11 Mar 2015, 20:49 PM
#65
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705

Exactly,u can reduce DPS of indiviadual model and keep everything same -that is DPS/HP ratio same.But 5 men adds survivability from silly 1 shots.
11 Mar 2015, 21:06 PM
#66
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484



give them members,who cares.They aren't standard frontline infantry.


Your whole premise was Grens and PGS being 4 man squad getting wiped, so why cant we make an argument about other 4 man squads such as Obers? Should we make Obers 5 man squad too since they get wiped JUST like Grens and PGs?
11 Mar 2015, 21:10 PM
#67
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705



Your whole premise was Grens and PGS being 4 man squad getting wiped, so why cant we make an argument about other 4 man squads such as Obers? Should we make Obers 5 man squad too since they get wiped JUST like Grens and PGs?


Because obers fire their LMGs on the move,pzgrens can't fire shrecks on move,neither grens lmg42. Staying still to aim is when max wipes happen.How can u not understand something so simple?Oh wait u don't play ost...
11 Mar 2015, 21:14 PM
#68
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484



Because obers fire their LMGs on the move,pzgrens can't fire shrecks on move,neither grens lmg42. Staying still to aim is when max wipes happen.How can u not understand something so simple?Oh wait u don't play ost...


So? Just move your units if there is a indirect fire unit near by (micro your units and retreat when you need to). My most played faction is Wher thank you very much. You can look it up. I am more than welcome to play with you using Wher to show you how to play against indirect fire and RNG units.
11 Mar 2015, 21:16 PM
#69
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

Yeah nice to see someone mention it. If grens get 5 men their actually dps will be lower (Not just the single entities). So while the outcome of 1v1 fights remain the same cons=grens. If no one is shooting at them they will do less dps then they did if they had 4 men. If they received one more man and still did the same dps for the whole squad, their unit value will go up as they just recieved a durability buff at the cost of nothing.

Also I don't think grens have received accuracy modifiers anymore, since march deployment patch.
11 Mar 2015, 21:17 PM
#70
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

ignore meant to edit, not quote.
11 Mar 2015, 21:17 PM
#71
avatar of DakkaIsMagic

Posts: 403

So... 8 man conscript squads.
11 Mar 2015, 21:18 PM
#72
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17637 | Subs: 9



I know such dreams give u nightmares,ur too used to one shotting and rolling over ost for ur autowins.

Or I happen to work in a gaming company myself and actually understand development decisions, which allows me to actually know what could be changed and what is a wishful thinking. ;)
A change that flips over whole early game balance and dynamics pretty much destroying everything that was made over past 2 years is as likely to happen as the sun turning green tomorrow.
11 Mar 2015, 21:20 PM
#73
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2015, 21:18 PMKatitof

Or I happen to work in a gaming company myself and actually understand development decisions, which allows me to actually know what could be changed and what is a wishful thinking. ;)
I'm going to assume you aren't a community manager.:lol:
11 Mar 2015, 21:21 PM
#74
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17637 | Subs: 9

I'm going to assume you aren't a community manager.:lol:


That would be an accurate assumption :D
I couldn't be one with my NKVD level of diplomacy.
11 Mar 2015, 21:26 PM
#75
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

Yeah nice to see someone mention it. If grens get 5 men their actually dps will be lower (Not just the single entities). So while the outcome of 1v1 fights remain the same cons=grens. If no one is shooting at them they will do less dps then they did if they had 4 men. If they received one more man and still did the same dps for the whole squad, their unit value will go up as they just recieved a durability buff at the cost of nothing.

Also I don't think grens have received accuracy modifiers anymore, since march deployment patch.

BTW this is also why US 4 man support weapons are so flimsy. Because ost 240mp 4 man grens will actually kill USF support teams 25% faster then a 240mp conscript squad will destroy a ost 4 man support team.


11 Mar 2015, 21:35 PM
#76
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705



So? Just move your units if there is a indirect fire unit near by (micro your units and retreat when you need to). My most played faction is Wher thank you very much. You can look it up. I am more than welcome to play with you using Wher to show you how to play against indirect fire and RNG units.


If ur most played is wehr then u should know saying moving is far easier than done,when 120 mm/pack howie,sherman etc lands suddenly in head.
U move ur grens u lose that infantry fight.U move shrecks pzgrens it can;t fire=useless,in fights they HAVE to stand still to be effective...there is no micro against 1 shotted bullshit.

Now answer the question DPS/HP ratio reamins same by reducing gren DPS on model,then conscripts balance earlygame is not moved..why is then there a obstacle to 5 men to remove 1 shot problem..or is it just that u are inherently anti axis,,,the general trend of ur posts.
11 Mar 2015, 21:36 PM
#77
avatar of Darc Reaver

Posts: 194

It was the first change that I made in the Mod Tools, and I was amazed at how nicely the change impacted the game.

Ostheer finally had a decently survivable infantry unit and it wasn't that much more powerful. And besides, the Ostheer still had to pay for it. The squad's cost was 280 manpower, it took longer to build, and the extra entity to reinforce added up. Interestingly enough, they were amazingly more resilient (but certainly not immune) to being wiped in a single shell blast.

All it was was a single value change, and man did it seriously improve the sense of balance.

As such, I decided I would make a very simple mod so that people can see for themselves.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=405996712

It changes two whole values. It increases the squad loadout of Grenadier squads from 4 to 5, and the Grenadiers that come with an lmg42 in a halftrack from 4 to 5.

I know I could argue up and down as to what changes should or shouldn't be made to balance CoH2, like I have many a time since beta, but I'd rather just make an easy, straightforward and accessible mod so people can just try for themselves how the change might actually impact the game.

While I honestly think this is a change that Relic should consider for the Ostheer, what do you all think? Especially from those people that exclusively play a single faction or side.


Hi.

No, pls stahp.

Greetings
11 Mar 2015, 21:39 PM
#78
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705

Many members on purpose here want to keep ostheer weak and inefficient.Thus we hear the word 'fine' a lot applied to ost and its units,however when it comes to performance somehow this is not reflected.
11 Mar 2015, 21:44 PM
#79
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

Sorry for the continuous posting, but I don't think people quite understand squad size and unit value.

Increasing a squads numbers is actually a two headed sword. While the squad might be less susceptible to being wiped by a sudden explosion. their lower dps also means that they might stuggle to finish off squads themselves.

A fact that I'm surprised most players haven't realized is that Axis smaller units are better at wiping allied units with small arms. Higher dps and smaller squads means more damage in less time. So don't be surprised if retreating cons seem harder to finish off or snipers harder to hunt down. This mean axis will actually be more likely to wipe allied units with infantry. In fact, the amount axis wipe infantry and allies wipe infantry might actually be equal even with those sudden explosive squad wipes simply because axis wipe more often in the "traditional way".

It also means that they would become worse as supporting other units as those enemy squads will take longer to cut down and have more time to do whatever it is they are doing like flanking an MG or crippling a tank.
11 Mar 2015, 21:56 PM
#80
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705

Doesn't matter,dead men kill nothing.5 men means u don't lose 25% DPS with one member kiled and don't have to retreat at 2 dead.On top of all,no 1 shots of vet 3 infantry.
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