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OKW, the root of most balance issues?

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12 Dec 2014, 16:32 PM
#241
avatar of Karny

Posts: 39



1) I played OKW and teching for KT while keeping a viable AT is not difficult at all. I would have at least 3 Volks squads with shreks and 2 Rakets alone and convert muni to fuel from my tech truck afterwards. I have seen many players spit out a KT at late mid game with this strategy alone (asuuming they don't build Panthers).

2) Jagdtiger, we have tons of threads on this: the simple answer is late game there are enough vetted 5 volks with shreks to deter any risky armor flanks.

3) HE rounds rely heavily on RNG for full squad wipes, other than that they are vulnerable to my 3 volks with shreks.

4) Obers wreck shocks and eat Rifilemen for breakfast. Yes you can have tanks by the time Obers are on the field, but with vetted shreks and okw armor alone nullifies this. Again, Obers have no hard soft counters, plus they are always in a blob or supported by shreks!


I play a similar way. OKW is a fun faction to play and one I play as most of the time. My entire point of my post is trying to get ally players to realize that maybe they lost because they are playing poorly, not an unbalanced faction.
12 Dec 2014, 16:36 PM
#242
avatar of the_onion_man
Patrion 14

Posts: 115

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2014, 01:33 AMCrysack
Yeah, but everyone's teching costs look expensive compared to OKW. If you rush straight for armour as USF with no grenades, BARs, M20, AAHT or anything of the sort, you're still up for 140 fuel before you even start building your first tank.


I don't entirely disagree, but you're leaving out the fact that under those circumstances USF gets capable handheld AT (Captain) and a mobile reinforce point (Major), just for teching.

As for Karny's points, first of all I think there is a basic design problem with the idea that USF is not going to scale into the late game. It's fine if Axis have a slight late game advantage, but as of now USF doesn't even have a doctrinal heavy tank call in (note to Relic: this is NOT A REQUEST for paid DLC, the issue is the design). Jacksons are made of paper and get shredded by T4 flak cannon, which is just LOL.

Beyond that, if you're having trouble managing Allied armor (with the sole exception of doctrinal Soviet heavy tanks, and even then really just the IS2/ISU) with Volks+schrecks, ordinarily I hate to say this but that is an L2P issue. Can you charge schrecked Volks completely unsupported against two T34-85s? No but you couldn't do that with PzG's either. In other words there are jobs that handheld AT was not meant to do. Meanwhile any single light or medium armored vehicle will get annihilated by schrecked Volks, as will heavy armor if the opponent is not careful.

Finally, Obers are totally broken. A single Ober squad can easily dispatch 2 or (depending on cover and how the engagement begins) even 3 BAR rifle squads.
12 Dec 2014, 18:49 PM
#244
avatar of Specialka

Posts: 144

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2014, 18:04 PMJaigen


In short L2P

Show your player card or stop talking.
12 Dec 2014, 19:20 PM
#245
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2477 | Subs: 21

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2014, 15:56 PMKatitof


Or just make obers not so cost effective by either nerfing rec accuracy, dps, increasing cost(reinforce the same) or making them buy LMG first.

Buying the LMG might actually be a good idea. Mostly because it'll force OKW players to decide on whether or not to A. Go for more AT via shreks, or B. Go for more Anti-inf with upgraded Obers. :foreveralone:
12 Dec 2014, 20:07 PM
#246
avatar of Nathanm465

Posts: 204

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2014, 16:32 PMKarny


I play a similar way. OKW is a fun faction to play and one I play as most of the time. My entire point of my post is trying to get ally players to realize that maybe they lost because they are playing poorly, not an unbalanced faction.


You do know that such a statement is absolute stupidity? You reply to a guy who states that with a certain build, nothing can touch his early, mid and late game and his kt is as good as achieved if he has the early game right.

Allied players are depended on the OKW player making stupid mistakes in order to win from someone who plays OKW and has the same skill level. The kubel wagen accompanied with sturmpios and a lot of volks is a early game nightmare, the thing is still in my opinion to potent of a weapon. In mid game you get volk blobs with shrecks, rendering any early tank worthless since they roam the field like a single squad, and ofcourse a luchs. You either need a shit ton of mines or a lot of molotovs to counter that. Requiring immense micro. Then we come in to late mid game and the definite late game. Panthers, king tigers, jagdtigers are all a possibility. If you can get 2 jackson or 2 shermans or 2 t34-85s, you are still in mortal danger all the time due to the shreck blobs.

If you play as soviets, you need to flank a lot, which can be achieved vs a Ostheer player. If the OKW player has a kubel, the thing just swiftly turns, needly pins any squad that comes from a flank and turns around again and repeats the process. Needing 2 freaking at nades to take it out. If you have a few tanks and need to flank say a panther, a king tiger or a jagdtiger, you have the shreck blob to guard it.
Only brain malfunction or utter utter utter bad luck can make the OKW player lose.

The faction is rotten. In 1v1, you are depended on the OKW player to make mistakes. If he does not, you can't win.

We all know this.


(9/10 times i face the okw in 1vs1 as soviets, the reason I have quit playing 1vs1s is this utter garbage of a faction which dominates the charts with easy mode gameplay and as they say " a fun faction to play"
we all know what this means, just have a fun time running around, not trying your best and still win, like the vet 3 panther spam in vcoh, eventually it would tear you down)
12 Dec 2014, 20:32 PM
#247
avatar of MoerserKarL
Donator 22

Posts: 1108

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2014, 15:56 PMKatitof


Or just make obers not so cost effective by either nerfing rec accuracy, dps, increasing cost(reinforce the same) or making them buy LMG first.


120 munition for an lmg upgrade for obers would be nice and fair
12 Dec 2014, 20:44 PM
#248
avatar of MajorBloodnok
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 314

Posts: 10627 | Subs: 9

Reluctantly, I have invised post #243.

(IMO) the reasoning of the poster was sound, but the manner of delivery was hostile and unnecessary. His points could have been made in a more polite fashion, and just as forcibly.

Back to topic, hopefully more politely :)
12 Dec 2014, 20:57 PM
#249
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484



120 munition for an lmg upgrade for obers would be nice and fair


I agree 120 munition LMG upgrade for Obers, make them equivalent to Paratroopers!
12 Dec 2014, 21:18 PM
#250
avatar of comm_ash
Patrion 14

Posts: 1191 | Subs: 1



I agree 120 munition LMG upgrade for Obers, make them equivalent to Paratroopers!


120 may be a bit much. I would think 100 would be a fair price. to make it an even more interesting unit, maybe make the unit come with the lmg, but require munitions to build! ( In this Case, the muni cost would be like 90).
12 Dec 2014, 23:32 PM
#251
avatar of Ubertoaster

Posts: 38

Yea, hello and etc.
I just came back from a game with the USF against OKW. You know the drill, early game win, until they pulled out the KTs. I guess this was our fault because we knew where their bases were (I almost had a flak-halftrack and a medic halftrack destroyed, but I just couldn't keep up with the constant reinforcement) and one was playing artillery, but had the IQ of a brick and didn't bomb them.
They pulled out their first 2 KTs and we defeated them, but the next wave just steamrolled our AT defences The king tiger just sniped out 10 out of 16 squads and oneshotted 2 AT guns.
I am including screenshots, but in my shaky arm anger I closed too early and didn't snap the riflemen - they were the worst hit.

12 Dec 2014, 23:51 PM
#252
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

:Sigh: no realizes that the weapon itself is broken. Putting it behind a munition wall isn't gonna improve the quality of the game. Just hide its issues.

13 Dec 2014, 00:07 AM
#253
avatar of the_onion_man
Patrion 14

Posts: 115

:Sigh: no realizes that the weapon itself is broken. Putting it behind a munition wall isn't gonna improve the quality of the game. Just hide its issues.



I agree. Not to mention that the current meta favors the StG 44, which is a munitions upgrade. Obers are broken, their weapon is just one (relatively small) part of that.
13 Dec 2014, 00:09 AM
#254
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130



I agree 120 munition LMG upgrade for Obers, make them equivalent to Paratroopers!



This is not going to happen anytime soon. 3 reasons for that.

1. para lmg's stll do overall more damage then the lmg34 i believe between 20% to 30%
2. para's come equiped with a special suppression ability that obers lack
3. law of the okw is that any unit need to be flatout 20 % better because of the economic handicaps.

If this rather badly thought out suggestion goes through the obers will initially cost between 260-280 mp and their lmg will cost between 70 - 80 ammo with 7 popcap.
13 Dec 2014, 00:45 AM
#255
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

:Sigh: no realizes that the weapon itself is broken. Putting it behind a munition wall isn't gonna improve the quality of the game. Just hide its issues.


the weapon is broken but making it not as powerful (which i think would be a good idea) would require doing some rebalancing with obers which is more complicated than simply gating the broken weapon to slow down the rate it comes out at.

of course now that we've suggested gating the weapon or nerfing obers we know that relic will think up something totally different that almost kind of works but doesn't solve the issue and/or introduces other issues....

i guess an additional option would be to hard cap obers at 1, maybe 2, but relic has refused to do that with snipers, another problem unit, and so probably won't do it with obers. it would also make volks spam even more common.
13 Dec 2014, 01:26 AM
#256
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Dec 2014, 00:09 AMJaigen



This is not going to happen anytime soon. 3 reasons for that.

1. para lmg's stll do overall more damage then the lmg34 i believe between 20% to 30%
2. para's come equiped with a special suppression ability that obers lack
3. law of the okw is that any unit need to be flatout 20 % better because of the economic handicaps.

If this rather badly thought out suggestion goes through the obers will initially cost between 260-280 mp and their lmg will cost between 70 - 80 ammo with 7 popcap.


FFS, what is this reasoning that obers have to be better due to economic handicaps? THEY ARE A MANPOWER ONLY UNIT. THE REDUCED MUNI AND FUEL DON'T AFFECT THEM
13 Dec 2014, 01:47 AM
#257
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Dec 2014, 01:26 AMNinjaWJ


FFS, what is this reasoning that obers have to be better due to economic handicaps? THEY ARE A MANPOWER ONLY UNIT. THE REDUCED MUNI AND FUEL DON'T AFFECT THEM


It affects them quite a bit. lets place this in a hypothetical situation. if i had 100 % fuel i could afford a luchs for ai and a panther for AT. but i dont have 100 % i have 66%. this leaves a gap in my AT as my panther comes out later. to fill the gap i need to find anther solution. to do so i need to address my other 2 resources: either i buy a puchen from the mp or take a shrek. the lack of fuel or ammo means that MP resource will be need to be used more.

and if i need to address my mp resource more i cannot afford as many obers.
13 Dec 2014, 02:29 AM
#258
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Dec 2014, 00:09 AMJaigen



This is not going to happen anytime soon. 3 reasons for that.

1. para lmg's stll do overall more damage then the lmg34 i believe between 20% to 30%
2. para's come equiped with a special suppression ability that obers lack
3. law of the okw is that any unit need to be flatout 20 % better because of the economic handicaps.


1-

x1 1919: 5.741/8.055/8.180
x2 1919: 11.482/16.11/16.36
LMG34: 11.561/16.802/16.833

x1 Thompson: 16.278/2.485/0.44
x1 Stg44: 26.152/12.649/4.274
x4 Thompson: 65.112/9.94/1.76
x2 Stg44: 52.304/25.298/8.548

Carbines: 7.597/2.406/1.538
Kar98: 5.956/3.702/2.895

2- On 1919 and it cost munition. Obers gets it passive with it's stupid vet ability.

3- Haha...nope.

4- We are still waiting for that high skill level replay. I guess we still have to wait for the people using your account to let you play.


the weapon is broken but making it not as powerful (which i think would be a good idea) would require doing some rebalancing with obers which is more complicated than simply gating the broken weapon to slow down the rate it comes out at.


Make LMG not shoot on the move (both 1919 and LMG34)
Make 2 LMG34 instead of 1 with high DPS. REDUCE supression values so it doesn't insta supress when they are vet4.
Spread out some of the LMG34 DPS into the Kar98.

I still think that small arm fire DPS during mid-late game is too high. But any of what i mention before doesn't take into account that since theres no DPS nerf, just distribution.
13 Dec 2014, 02:54 AM
#259
avatar of akula

Posts: 589

vet5 volks are a problem IMO. they are immune to everything, they need to die easier.
13 Dec 2014, 04:02 AM
#260
avatar of steel

Posts: 1963 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Dec 2014, 00:09 AMJaigen



This is not going to happen anytime soon. 3 reasons for that.

1. para lmg's stll do overall more damage then the lmg34 i believe between 20% to 30%
2. para's come equiped with a special suppression ability that obers lack

3. law of the okw is that any unit need to be flatout 20 % better because of the economic handicaps.



If this rather badly thought out suggestion goes through the obers will initially cost between 260-280 mp and their lmg will cost between 70 - 80 ammo with 7 popcap.
I guess we can change it to be 20 % better for all halftracks and tanks? The army doesn't lack manpower anyway, somehow.


4- We are still waiting for that high skill level replay. I guess we still have to wait for the people using your account to let you play.
This.


When was the last time you actually managed to play the game?
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