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OKW, the root of most balance issues?

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12 Dec 2014, 01:33 AM
#221
avatar of Crysack

Posts: 70



On the contrary, it just highlights how much OST is getting screwed because of balance changes to make the Allies competitive with OKW teching. OKW are in position to pop Panthers for 120 fuel, get health care + the truly ridiculous armor-shredding flak for free, with almost no meaningful downside. OST has to spend 110 fuel just on the battle phase escalation, and AT LEAST another 25 fuel on T1 and T2, presuming they leave themselves wide open to enemy armor by skipping T3--which is, as things stand, the only realistic way to get Panthers before the 30 minute mark (if ever) in 1v1.


Yeah, but everyone's teching costs look expensive compared to OKW. If you rush straight for armour as USF with no grenades, BARs, M20, AAHT or anything of the sort, you're still up for 140 fuel before you even start building your first tank.

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Dec 2014, 22:58 PMJaigen

same shit goes for the obers panthers and puma's. Obers can be countered if proper combined arms is utilised. most refuse to do so. people wish obers to pay for their upgrade. it a laughable concept. obers would become even more powerful then they already as and you are suddenly allowed to pump 2 resources into them instead of 1. the fact that only cost mp is a strength but also severely limits them. at best you can have between 2-3. if this suggestion was put through you would likely encounter 6-8 of them. But the fact is that obers have an impact and people complain about them. but this doesnt make obers op it shows often usf and soviet player do not prepare for them, and a single light vehicle is enough.


Aren't people suggesting that the LMG simply be made a munitions upgrade - y'know, exactly like Paratroopers?

The thing with the Ober situation, at least for the USF, is that they need Shermans/M8s to actually deal with them. That would be reasonable except for the fact that Obers are really just an MP dump at the end of the day - on a faction that doesn't really have an enormous problem with upkeep. The other issue is that, while you need the Shermans/M8s to deal with the Obers, you also need double Jacksons to deal with the Panther when it shows up (which typically isn't even that late). If you misread which option the OKW player is going to roll with first, you can easily lose instantly.
12 Dec 2014, 06:44 AM
#222
avatar of skemshead

Posts: 602

Relic utterly failed to learn their lesson of making powerful units that only have a resource penalty as a downside. Consider Tiger Ace and Soviet Industry. Both those commanders were batshit OP and had a number of nerfs before becoming acceptable. Some would say Tiger Ace is still op unless your experienced with preparing for it....

OKW is almost exactly the same issue, largely because you can just continue spamming infantry to stay in the game and then just roll out the KT or similar and win.

I am always amazed when the OKW player gives up and quits when all they need to do is wait.
12 Dec 2014, 06:59 AM
#223
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

OKW teching needs to be slowed down. they can literately have t3 in 5 minutes in if you don't do well for the first couple of engagements.

the US tech is only a little more expensive then OKW but tends to happen much slower, partly because they're always mp starved.
12 Dec 2014, 07:09 AM
#224
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

OKW teching needs to be slowed down. they can literately have t3 in 5 minutes in if you don't do well for the first couple of engagements.

the US tech is only a little more expensive then OKW but tends to happen much slower, partly because they're always mp starved.


Sooo.... the solution would be...what? To make OKW trucks more expensive? You know this is a dangerous path. It can quickly transform OKW into an UP faction. If we delay Puma or get read of schreck spam or both, something must be done related to raketenwerfer.
12 Dec 2014, 07:32 AM
#225
avatar of skemshead

Posts: 602

There is no simple solution to OKW.

However manpower is something OKW is never short of, imo.
12 Dec 2014, 08:03 AM
#226
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

increase the cost of t3 by another 20 fuel and make it take longer to build for a start. i haven't got any specific ideas other than that, delaying the first two tiers is a terrible idea as it limits choice. i think the cost of the first two US tiers should be lowered as well. ~~10 fuel on t1 and ~~20 or 30 fuel on t2.
12 Dec 2014, 08:55 AM
#227
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2014, 07:09 AMJohnnyB


Sooo.... the solution would be...what? To make OKW trucks more expensive? You know this is a dangerous path. It can quickly transform OKW into an UP faction. If we delay Puma or get read of schreck spam or both, something must be done related to raketenwerfer.


Thier t4 is the fastest in the game.

This needs to change
12 Dec 2014, 09:08 AM
#228
avatar of miragefla
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13

i think the cost of the first two US tiers should be lowered as well. ~~10 fuel on t1 and ~~20 or 30 fuel on t2.


That change for USF teching(unless you take away their starting fuel) would butcher the USF vs Ostheer 1 v 1 early game match-up even further unless changes were made to Ostheer's expensive teching costs and build-times to get their T2 to counter LT tech. M20s reaching the field before the 221(2)/Pak is bad enough.

Aside from changing a few OKW units to perform worse(Obers, Volks) or better(Rakten and its delay). Make the flak truck less powerful/less range to make it easier to harrass/push into OKW lines to ensure they won't have a good chunk of the map locked down by a single position which doesn't requires supported ATGs would also limit their ability to hold/gain resources towards that first Panther or whatever else they might want for their fuel purchase. If it only had 40 range and fired within its actual limits, things might be easier as it'd be more vulnerable to siege and be less capable of holding multiple points alone.
12 Dec 2014, 09:11 AM
#229
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

OKH teching is ridiculously long and expensive and causes huge issues in both US and soviet matchups.

as it stands though, lowering the cost of US teching would both make them more interesting by reducing the ret/rifle only time and give them better counter availability for things like garrisons.
12 Dec 2014, 09:28 AM
#230
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1



If it only had 40 range and fired within its actual limits, things might be easier as it'd be more vulnerable to siege and be less capable of holding multiple points alone.


But then what it would be its purpose? OKW T4 was an original idea and it relies on that flak gun to be potent. I don't think that making T4 weaker is a solution neather because it involves one of these 2 effects:
1. If built far from OKW base, would be easilly destroyed which will create a big handicap for OKW player;
2. If built in the base in order to be more protected, more than 50% of its purpose will be erased.

Let's concentrate on simple solutions that won't totally change the OKW structure.

Problems with schreck blobs? Find a solution for that. Change schreck (not recommended in my opinion) or change the features of the volk squad (like make it 4 for instance, or decrease health, etc, something making it less durale) or change the amo income, etc., and strenghten the raketen.
Problems with elite OKW infantry? Make them pay for their mg34 and fg42 upgrades, make them realy expensive, but restore the 100% amo income.

Or, solve that crazy experience scalling of OKW infantry.
12 Dec 2014, 09:40 AM
#231
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

OKW is hard-counter faction.

M20-> Schrecks
AA truck - Puma
Stuart - Puma
Blob - Luchs
Sherman - Panther
Paras - Obers

And all can hit the field ~1min after or sometimes even earlier than units they should counter.

On the other hand...

Truck push - no hard counter.
Kubel - no hard counter. Ok, M20 but it hits the field ~4min
Puma - No hard counter. Sherman but while Puma is around 6min, Sherman is 10-13min.
Obers - Sherman, but Obers can be deployed around 9min while Sherman 10-13min. Depends on teching. And when you get Sherman to counter Obers, OKW will get Panther really, really soon.
Panther, King Tiger, JT - P47 :foreveralone:
12 Dec 2014, 10:12 AM
#232
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

the puma isn't really a huge issue for US unless the map is super open. both the M20 crew and flaktrack are entirely capable of killing pumas. the stuart is just shit right now.
12 Dec 2014, 11:52 AM
#233
avatar of Jawohl?

Posts: 97

Just remove OKW from the game.
12 Dec 2014, 12:10 PM
#234
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130

Once again people are complaining because they are bad players and can not easily win compared to ost . OKW tech is not much cheaper then other factions. but unlike ostheers tier 3 which doesn't have nearly as much impact as okw tier 3 forces the allies to adept . usf tier 3 will completely destroy the ost tier 3 with jacksons and soviets will do the same thing thx to their call ins. but not the okw who will say fuck you i have a panther.

okw tech is fine.
12 Dec 2014, 13:05 PM
#235
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2014, 12:10 PMJaigen
but not the okw who will say fuck you i have a panther.





SS panzer division "Fuck you" :D
12 Dec 2014, 15:24 PM
#236
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Dec 2014, 22:58 PMJaigen


it has nothing to do with the okw however more of the ostheer buffing the okw economy skyhigh thats is the problem in teamgames. in 1vs 1 they are fine.

The issue that most people have with the okw is that can produce units that can immediately affect the flow of the game if you are not prepared for that. how often i have soviet and usf players relying upon at soft counters to repel a luchs is often. but you need hardcounters to such an unit. its definitely available but most people choose to wait for call ins and that doesnt work.

same shit goes for the obers panthers and puma's. Obers can be countered if proper combined arms is utilised. most refuse to do so. people wish obers to pay for their upgrade. it a laughable concept. obers would become even more powerful then they already as and you are suddenly allowed to pump 2 resources into them instead of 1. the fact that only cost mp is a strength but also severely limits them. at best you can have between 2-3. if this suggestion was put through you would likely encounter 6-8 of them. But the fact is that obers have an impact and people complain about them. but this doesnt make obers op it shows often usf and soviet player do not prepare for them, and a single light vehicle is enough.

At the same time OKW is very resistant to cheese tactics that would instantly win you the game against the ost. sniper spam maxim spam m3 and m20 rush is difficult for the ost to counter.But not for the OKW.


Obers have almost no soft counters in the game. Even LMG equipped Paras get cut down by them, how about the MGs? Maxium and .50 get shredded from distance because of Ober's insane accuracy and DPS, while the models struggle to hop back on the gun (Snipers are extinct against OKW). Obers paying for LMG is the most SENSIBLE way of toning them down. Its ridiculous that I have to spend my micro time with Shermans to take out a single infantry squad while OKW has Panthers. The sherman itself gets raped by shreks if I want to use it against Obers.

I agree with OKW's T4 truck needs to have either increase fuel cost or slow build time. Nerfing the gun on that Flak truck is a must, medium armor alone receive substantial amount of damage. On the side note, I noticed how Allies lost air superiority because of OKW's T4 and base emplacements (more susceptible for the airplanes to crash like recon, strafe and marked) compare to OST planes are free to roam the skies unless player specifically builds AA (This is in team games specifically).
12 Dec 2014, 15:40 PM
#237
avatar of OZtheWiZARD

Posts: 1439

How about we introduce 80% penalty to OKW manpower income?

I know back in the beta there was a penalty and it didn't work out but I believe it was greater than 80%?

My thoughts behind this idea is that OKW would have to rely on Volks being a core of its army (similar way Conscripts work for SU) and if you decide to spam high MP costly units you will start to struggle (i.e. having multiple squads of Obers would hurt your ability to reinforce them in the long run, especially when your pop cap is maxed)
12 Dec 2014, 15:49 PM
#238
avatar of Karny

Posts: 39

I'm not sure this has been said yet or not. I'm at work so I couldn't read every post, but I wanted to share my thoughts.

I'm mostly playing OKW, and most people complain so much about them. You have to understand that each faction has its own strength and weakness.

OKW is limited early game with no reliable artillery or mg support, with powerful late game units

This plays right into the hands of Allies, as they are both effective at Early game "blobs" that OKW, and even Ostheer, have a very difficult time dealing with.

People want to complain about "op" units. Specifically the King Tiger, Jadgtiger, Volks+Shreks, and Obersoldalten(sp)

1)The King Tiger requires the OKW to build all THREE bases and the unit cost is 720 mp and 260 fuel. That's extremely expensive, and usually one doesn't hit the field until much later in the game. Which, I'm sorry Ally players, but if you don't have some form of AT by that point in the game then it's your own fault.

2)Jadgtiger is a OKW heavy tank call in. Which is also very expensive at (I forgot the mp) and 290 fuel! Again, most of the time when OKW players (even myself) calls one in, is we field no tanks before then. It takes a long time to acquire that much fuel with OKW.

3)Volks+Shreks is common answer to early Ally tanks. Albeit, it's not a very good answer honestly. Because upgrading the Volks only gives the squad 1 shrek, therefore the fire rate is very slow as compared to Pgrens equipped with Shreks. In most cases, a t34 and especially a Sherman using HE rounds will just obliterate Volk squads. So the complaint about them is something I don't understand. The only way they can take out tanks is having quite a few squads and having them all fire at once and then retreat as they most likely won't get another shot off.

4)Obersodalten are the OKW "elite" infantry. They are extremely powerful late game anti infantry units. Most allies complain how it is an overpowered unit. Well, honestly it should be. Soviets get Shock troops, USF can upgrade their riflemen with Bars and both are cheap and easily fielded when compared to Obers. In most cases, by the time you can get them out on the field is when tanks are starting to roll out (which is a counter as they have no AT capabilities). So, again they are fine exactly how they are.


I am by no means an "expert, or pro" just someone who has played this game since beta. I feel like the game is fairly balanced as it is to be honest. I know a lot will disagree with me on this. I do not mean this as an insult in any way, but how about instead of jumping on the forums complaining about how "op" a particular a faction is, try finding out why you getting beat by this faction. Even with the units I mentioned above, there are more than enough counters available to allies to effectively deal with them.

Trust me, there are times I rage when I play. Especially when I vs USF but I try to learn from what I did wrong. 9 times out of 10, if you lose its because you made a mistake. Don't get upset, even the best of us can't be perfect all the time. Just learn from it and move on.
12 Dec 2014, 15:56 PM
#239
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

How about we introduce 80% penalty to OKW manpower income?

I know back in the beta there was a penalty and it didn't work out but I believe it was greater than 80%?

My thoughts behind this idea is that OKW would have to rely on Volks being a core of its army (similar way Conscripts work for SU) and if you decide to spam high MP costly units you will start to struggle (i.e. having multiple squads of Obers would hurt your ability to reinforce them in the long run, especially when your pop cap is maxed)


Or just make obers not so cost effective by either nerfing rec accuracy, dps, increasing cost(reinforce the same) or making them buy LMG first.

There is no 2nd as cost efficient unit in game, there is no other unit that literally have no downsides to have-you get excellent long range squad with biggest survivability among all infantry and the best scaling in game, which happens fast thanks to best infantry weapon in game which they get for free.

The only reason why you wouldn't want obers is if you completely annihilated your opponent already.
12 Dec 2014, 16:07 PM
#240
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2014, 15:49 PMKarny
I'm not sure this has been said yet or not. I'm at work so I couldn't read every post, but I wanted to share my thoughts.

I'm mostly playing OKW, and most people complain so much about them. You have to understand that each faction has its own strength and weakness.

OKW is limited early game with no reliable artillery or mg support, with powerful late game units

This plays right into the hands of Allies, as they are both effective at Early game "blobs" that OKW, and even Ostheer, have a very difficult time dealing with.

People want to complain about "op" units. Specifically the King Tiger, Jadgtiger, Volks+Shreks, and Obersoldalten(sp)

1)The King Tiger requires the OKW to build all THREE bases and the unit cost is 720 mp and 260 fuel. That's extremely expensive, and usually one doesn't hit the field until much later in the game. Which, I'm sorry Ally players, but if you don't have some form of AT by that point in the game then it's your own fault.

2)Jadgtiger is a OKW heavy tank call in. Which is also very expensive at (I forgot the mp) and 290 fuel! Again, most of the time when OKW players (even myself) calls one in, is we field no tanks before then. It takes a long time to acquire that much fuel with OKW.

3)Volks+Shreks is common answer to early Ally tanks. Albeit, it's not a very good answer honestly. Because upgrading the Volks only gives the squad 1 shrek, therefore the fire rate is very slow as compared to Pgrens equipped with Shreks. In most cases, a t34 and especially a Sherman using HE rounds will just obliterate Volk squads. So the complaint about them is something I don't understand. The only way they can take out tanks is having quite a few squads and having them all fire at once and then retreat as they most likely won't get another shot off.

4)Obersodalten are the OKW "elite" infantry. They are extremely powerful late game anti infantry units. Most allies complain how it is an overpowered unit. Well, honestly it should be. Soviets get Shock troops, USF can upgrade their riflemen with Bars and both are cheap and easily fielded when compared to Obers. In most cases, by the time you can get them out on the field is when tanks are starting to roll out (which is a counter as they have no AT capabilities). So, again they are fine exactly how they are.


I am by no means an "expert, or pro" just someone who has played this game since beta. I feel like the game is fairly balanced as it is to be honest. I know a lot will disagree with me on this. I do not mean this as an insult in any way, but how about instead of jumping on the forums complaining about how "op" a particular a faction is, try finding out why you getting beat by this faction. Even with the units I mentioned above, there are more than enough counters available to allies to effectively deal with them.

Trust me, there are times I rage when I play. Especially when I vs USF but I try to learn from what I did wrong. 9 times out of 10, if you lose its because you made a mistake. Don't get upset, even the best of us can't be perfect all the time. Just learn it and move on.


1) I played OKW and teching for KT while keeping a viable AT is not difficult at all. I would have at least 3 Volks squads with shreks and 2 Rakets alone and convert muni to fuel from my tech truck afterwards. I have seen many players spit out a KT at late mid game with this strategy alone (asuuming they don't build Panthers).

2) Jagdtiger, we have tons of threads on this: the simple answer is late game there are enough vetted 5 volks with shreks to deter any risky armor flanks.

3) HE rounds rely heavily on RNG for full squad wipes, other than that they are vulnerable to my 3 volks with shreks.

4) Obers wreck shocks and eat Rifilemen for breakfast. Yes you can have tanks by the time Obers are on the field, but with vetted shreks and okw armor alone nullifies this. Again, Obers have no hard soft counters, plus they are always in a blob or supported by shreks!
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