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OKW, the root of most balance issues?

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11 Dec 2014, 10:41 AM
#201
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Dec 2014, 09:12 AMEsxile



So at the end, I build a Sherman and had to face his panther... So next time, I'll skip the investment on med tanks, go directly for a sherman and break him before he can have his Panther.
riflespam into Sherman, you like it or not, OKW gameplay force you into.




Goes the same for the okw. volks cannot handle riflespam especially not when lmg's are involved. most okw players tech straight to the panther. the puma is fine piece of work but getting it to counter the m20 is suicidal . you need a panther to effectively counter medium armour. also keep in mind that the first ober is going to do jack shit against the rifleblob. its the p2 luchs that balances the situation forcing the usf player to get AT out to counter the little tank which allows the okw to pump more AI on the field.

the okw doesnt lack AT but they do lack early AV. getting a puma to counter a 20 fuel m20 is stupid. the pupchen is awesome against slower moving medium and heavy tanks but fails against vehicles. that leaves only shreks.
11 Dec 2014, 11:25 AM
#202
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3475 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Dec 2014, 10:39 AMJohnnyB


You speak about a T3 (Puma building) oppening. Let's not cut the choice of a T2 start (JagdPz building). That's why I'm talking about amo reduction together with a raketen buff. A munition price for those super-units still won't solve your problem, because OKW player will simply not invest in that expensive amo upgrade. Why should I pay for a lmg 34 for Obers or even an FG42 upgrade for fallschirms when all I need to do is invest amo in my volks blob and all my problems are solved? Especially if I chose a doctrine with infiltration grenades. In this particular case, it's certain that all I need is a volks blob and some sturmpio.


I'm talking about fuel free opening and mid game for OKW working better than investing any fuel point into something before your panther.

If you make OKW players pay for their weapons like anybody else, they'll have to choose what sort of weapon they want accordingly to their play style.

You go T2+T4, volkspam + shreck, You'll be most likely short in munition to equip your obers or falls or jaegers. So you'll go for halftruck + luch to get AI power.

You go T3+T4, Puma opening, munition free + T4 obers or call-ins falls where you spend your munition.

Here you have your two base strats, like Sov and USF work, Ostheer is different because you must build their tiers 1 per 1, but it is the same underlying gameplay.

And if you want to mix everything, a bit of shrecks + a bit of LMGs, you are most welcome since you'll be limited in both area by your munition income, you'll also have to invest more fuel to combine your arms.

@ Jaigen, Pumas counter Shermans more than well. Add a Raken behind and you're close to rape it before he understand what happens. Puma has longer ranger than Sherman, so it need to get close to shot at it and so enter in the raken range of fire.
It is only a matter of combined arms, what do you have to support your Puma vs what he has to support his sherman.
11 Dec 2014, 11:53 AM
#203
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Dec 2014, 11:25 AMEsxile


I'm talking about fuel free opening and mid game for OKW working better than investing any fuel point into something before your panther.

If you make OKW players pay for their weapons like anybody else, they'll have to choose what sort of weapon they want accordingly to their play style.

You go T2+T4, volkspam + shreck, You'll be most likely short in munition to equip your obers or falls or jaegers. So you'll go for halftruck + luch to get AI power.

You go T3+T4, Puma opening, munition free + T4 obers or call-ins falls where you spend your munition.

Here you have your two base strats, like Sov and USF work, Ostheer is different because you must build their tiers 1 per 1, but it is the same underlying gameplay.

And if you want to mix everything, a bit of shrecks + a bit of LMGs, you are most welcome since you'll be limited in both area by your munition income, you'll also have to invest more fuel to combine your arms.

.


OMFG this balance suggestion is so bad it has me in stitches. If you honestly believe that obers are going to cost 50 mp a piece when you take their lmg away then you have something coming. they will likely reduce the mp cost per ober to 35. your suggestion will reduce the immediate impact the obers have but at 25 min mark you are going to face 5-6 obers with lmg's and higher vet then normal because they suddenly cost cheaper.
11 Dec 2014, 15:38 PM
#204
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Dec 2014, 11:53 AMJaigen


OMFG this balance suggestion is so bad it has me in stitches. If you honestly believe that obers are going to cost 50 mp a piece when you take their lmg away then you have something coming. they will likely reduce the mp cost per ober to 35. your suggestion will reduce the immediate impact the obers have but at 25 min mark you are going to face 5-6 obers with lmg's and higher vet then normal because they suddenly cost cheaper.


Obers need that LMG purchase nerf BAD. Yes, we can offset this by decreasing reinforcement cost or decreasing reinforcement build time. I like Esxile's idea for munition dump for Obers, Falls and Jagers, okw would be more interesting to play. The player would have to chose between Shrek blob or Ober LMGs because right now, its almost impossible to fight this blob with anything.
11 Dec 2014, 15:41 PM
#205
avatar of Nathanm465

Posts: 204

Permanently Banned
The complaints about the OKW are piling up. If Relic doesn't change something quick, the writing is indeed on the wall.

We have had numbers in recent weeks and months about a certain faction dominating win rates at almost all categories of play, Relic can't ignore it any longer or postpone complete intervention with subtle changes.

Fix it Relic, or face your player base shrink far beyond the little you have as of now.

11 Dec 2014, 16:31 PM
#206
avatar of Rupert

Posts: 186

The complaints about the OKW are piling up. If Relic doesn't change something quick, the writing is indeed on the wall.

We have had numbers in recent weeks and months about a certain faction dominating win rates at almost all categories of play, Relic can't ignore it any longer or postpone complete intervention with subtle changes.

Fix it Relic, or face your player base shrink far beyond the little you have as of now.



Threatening devs to leave the game / somehow shrink their future income never worked so I wouldn't go that route.
11 Dec 2014, 17:32 PM
#207
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
Im soo tired of hearing the KW handicap argument. They get less fuel, yet are able to get panther out faster than WEHR.

They get let muni, yet are still able to blob shrels consistently

Also their upgrade cost are cheep, Not to mention their elite infantry dont have to pay for thier weapons
11 Dec 2014, 17:39 PM
#208
avatar of Rupert

Posts: 186

Im soo tired of hearing the KW handicap argument. They get less fuel, yet are able to get panther out faster than WEHR.

They get let muni, yet are still able to blob shrels consistently

Also their upgrade cost are cheep, Not to mention their elite infantry dont have to pay for thier weapons


The panther problem is more of an issue with OST teching costing way too much fuel+slower tech time+build time.

11 Dec 2014, 17:54 PM
#209
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Dec 2014, 17:39 PMRupert


The panther problem is more of an issue with OST teching costing way too much fuel+slower tech time+build time.

Not to mention OST panther costs 135 fuel and OKW panther costs 175, so from the second on OST is cheaper especially if you count in the resource handicap.



Ost Panther costs 175
11 Dec 2014, 17:55 PM
#210
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Dec 2014, 17:39 PMRupert


The panther problem is more of an issue with OST teching costing way too much fuel+slower tech time+build time.

Not to mention OST panther costs 135 fuel and OKW panther costs 175, so from the second on OST is cheaper especially if you count in the resource handicap.


Uh... Ost panther is 175 fuel, and attempting to go for it at a reasonable time gets you overrun by enemy armor.
11 Dec 2014, 18:49 PM
#211
avatar of Rupert

Posts: 186

My bad on the Panther price part.

But still doesn't mean OST tier-up system is fine.
11 Dec 2014, 19:07 PM
#212
avatar of the_onion_man
Patrion 14

Posts: 115

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Dec 2014, 18:49 PMRupert
My bad on the Panther price part.

But still doesn't mean OST tier-up system is fine.


On the contrary, it just highlights how much OST is getting screwed because of balance changes to make the Allies competitive with OKW teching. OKW are in position to pop Panthers for 120 fuel, get health care + the truly ridiculous armor-shredding flak for free, with almost no meaningful downside. OST has to spend 110 fuel just on the battle phase escalation, and AT LEAST another 25 fuel on T1 and T2, presuming they leave themselves wide open to enemy armor by skipping T3--which is, as things stand, the only realistic way to get Panthers before the 30 minute mark (if ever) in 1v1.
11 Dec 2014, 19:15 PM
#213
avatar of Jinseual

Posts: 598

The root of most balance issues is the Soviet faction. Now when the OKW came into the field, balance is suddenly screwed up?

No, the game wasn't properly balanced before it only got worse from there.
11 Dec 2014, 19:21 PM
#214
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484



On the contrary, it just highlights how much OST is getting screwed because of balance changes to make the Allies competitive with OKW teching. OKW are in position to pop Panthers for 120 fuel, get health care + the truly ridiculous armor-shredding flak for free, with almost no meaningful downside. OST has to spend 110 fuel just on the battle phase escalation, and AT LEAST another 25 fuel on T1 and T2, presuming they leave themselves wide open to enemy armor by skipping T3--which is, as things stand, the only realistic way to get Panthers before the 30 minute mark (if ever) in 1v1.


With the introduction of the WFA, I really enjoy playing Osth, it actually feels like a challenge and fair game (micro intensive) against US and Soviets. Aside from few tweaks, Ost would be more fun to play for challenge seeking players like myself who doesn't want auto win with OKW.
11 Dec 2014, 19:23 PM
#215
avatar of the_onion_man
Patrion 14

Posts: 115

Just to be clear, I think OST is the most fun/least gimmicky faction. That's why it pains me to see them suffer like this.
11 Dec 2014, 19:45 PM
#216
avatar of Napalm

Posts: 1595 | Subs: 2

All factions need some tweaks. I do feel that Strecks, a non-doctrinal Super Heavy Tank, a massive area of denial weapon (walking Stuka) and a base that can be used as a weapon make the OKW faction the easiest to pick on.
11 Dec 2014, 20:21 PM
#217
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

I do agree with Jinseual that Soviet faction is a big problem. Within the scope of Ost and USSR, the Soviets can work, albeit with the annoying call-in system.

It just seems like OKW is really dictating how the meta shifts and how players react to them even in-game. OKW can't really go wrong with placing med truck of mech truck first, although it is quite popular now to go med truck. They have solid or decent options at every building.


Changes will need to come, but in a way that causes the least issues. Right now, Ostheer is fairly balanced; They are a conventional faction with linear teching and power curve. It would be a shame if their gameplay gets disrupted due to changes with OKW.

I am fairly certain some significant changes like nerfs and buffs will be placed on OKW, but i don't know when
11 Dec 2014, 20:31 PM
#218
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Dec 2014, 20:21 PMNinjaWJ
I do agree with Jinseual that Soviet faction is a big problem. Within the scope of Ost and USSR, the Soviets can work, albeit with the annoying call-in system.

It just seems like OKW is really dictating how the meta shifts and how players react to them even in-game. OKW can't really go wrong with placing med truck of mech truck first, although it is quite popular now to go med truck. They have solid or decent options at every building.


Changes will need to come, but in a way that causes the least issues. Right now, Ostheer is fairly balanced; They are a conventional faction with linear teching and power curve. It would be a shame if their gameplay gets disrupted due to changes with OKW.

I am fairly certain some significant changes like nerfs and buffs will be placed on OKW, but i don't know when


I don't see how adjusting OKW would impact Osth? I am pretty sure they could code OKW's shrek accuracy nerf without touching PGs per example.
11 Dec 2014, 22:58 PM
#219
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130

The complaints about the OKW are piling up. If Relic doesn't change something quick, the writing is indeed on the wall.

We have had numbers in recent weeks and months about a certain faction dominating win rates at almost all categories of play, Relic can't ignore it any longer or postpone complete intervention with subtle changes.

Fix it Relic, or face your player base shrink far beyond the little you have as of now.



it has nothing to do with the okw however more of the ostheer buffing the okw economy skyhigh thats is the problem in teamgames. in 1vs 1 they are fine.

The issue that most people have with the okw is that can produce units that can immediately affect the flow of the game if you are not prepared for that. how often i have soviet and usf players relying upon at soft counters to repel a luchs is often. but you need hardcounters to such an unit. its definitely available but most people choose to wait for call ins and that doesnt work.

same shit goes for the obers panthers and puma's. Obers can be countered if proper combined arms is utilised. most refuse to do so. people wish obers to pay for their upgrade. it a laughable concept. obers would become even more powerful then they already as and you are suddenly allowed to pump 2 resources into them instead of 1. the fact that only cost mp is a strength but also severely limits them. at best you can have between 2-3. if this suggestion was put through you would likely encounter 6-8 of them. But the fact is that obers have an impact and people complain about them. but this doesnt make obers op it shows often usf and soviet player do not prepare for them, and a single light vehicle is enough.

At the same time OKW is very resistant to cheese tactics that would instantly win you the game against the ost. sniper spam maxim spam m3 and m20 rush is difficult for the ost to counter.But not for the OKW.
11 Dec 2014, 23:16 PM
#220
avatar of ☭ Калашникова ☭

Posts: 322

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Dec 2014, 22:58 PMJaigen


it has nothing to do with the okw however more of the ostheer buffing the okw economy skyhigh thats is the problem in teamgames. in 1vs 1 they are fine.

The issue that most people have with the okw is that can produce units that can immeadtely affect the flow


While this is true ost has to put forward MP to do it, cutting a squad every cache.
This combined with there tech times and costs can put them behind even if you are feeding the OKW with caches.

In the case of Luft supply, The doctrine is really not that amazing without the supply drops,
CAS is just better.

Both cases require ost to give up something to pump fuel. Giving OKW normal fuel income and adjusting all there fuel costs (+30%?) would be better then things like caches and luft supply would not pump them insane amounts of fuel.

For instance it would take 5 fuel drops to get enough for a KT, if the cost didn't have this weird % modifier it would take 7 drops. costing a additional 400 MP
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