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OKW, the root of most balance issues?

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6 Dec 2014, 22:28 PM
#181
avatar of the_onion_man
Patrion 14

Posts: 114

Totally unscientifically, I hadn't played Wehrmacht since... idunno... at least a couple weeks before Ardennes Assault hit. I've played a bunch of games in the past few days and lost almost all of them, primarily because grens seem to have lost their ability to reliably win at range vs. rifles OR cons. Everyone in my bracket (top 2000-ish) seems to be playing USF with the same strategy: riflespam your cutoff, early AA halftrack, win.

YMMV as always, but the first thought that crossed my mind was that allies (and USF in particular) had been over-buffed to compensate for their real or perceived weakness vs OKW.
6 Dec 2014, 23:13 PM
#182
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
Totally unscientifically, I hadn't played Wehrmacht since... idunno... at least a couple weeks before Ardennes Assault hit. I've played a bunch of games in the past few days and lost almost all of them, primarily because grens seem to have lost their ability to reliably win at range vs. rifles OR cons. Everyone in my bracket (top 2000-ish) seems to be playing USF with the same strategy: riflespam your cutoff, early AA halftrack, win.

YMMV as always, but the first thought that crossed my mind was that allies (and USF in particular) had been over-buffed to compensate for their real or perceived weakness vs OKW.


Obvious l2p issue
6 Dec 2014, 23:15 PM
#183
avatar of Greeb

Posts: 971

Totally unscientifically, I hadn't played Wehrmacht since... idunno... at least a couple weeks before Ardennes Assault hit. I've played a bunch of games in the past few days and lost almost all of them, primarily because grens seem to have lost their ability to reliably win at range vs. rifles OR cons. Everyone in my bracket (top 2000-ish) seems to be playing USF with the same strategy: riflespam your cutoff, early AA halftrack, win.

YMMV as always, but the first thought that crossed my mind was that allies (and USF in particular) had been over-buffed to compensate for their real or perceived weakness vs OKW.


That's because Ost struggles with the powerful USF early game, the same way SU struggles with the powerful OKW lategame.

In teamgames is easier for axis to camp until heavy tanks, obers and upgraded infantry turns the battle. No faction should have a clear advantatge at each stage if we want a balanced game in all gamemodes.

As soviet player I don't see any way to make my T3 units relevant against a OKW player. Even if I micro my T34s and avoid loses the amount of xp given to their volks will put me in a dire situation soon after. I can only rely in the ISU's stupid squad-wiping power from behind a wall of Su85s and Zis... and doing that every single game is not fun at all.

The amount of useless units or even whole Tiers that SU and Ostheer have is proof enough that the new factions force the old ones to play an unflexible strat based in OP units.
6 Dec 2014, 23:15 PM
#184
avatar of Thunderhun

Posts: 1593



Obvious l2p issue


Obvious forumwarrior high EGO issue

Thank you for your constructive comment
6 Dec 2014, 23:34 PM
#185
avatar of MajorBloodnok
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 314

Posts: 10627 | Subs: 9

Oi oi oi....leave off flagrant hits on staff, thanks.:)

Onion has been away for 4 months, so may be rusty ;)

9 Dec 2014, 16:24 PM
#186
avatar of OZtheWiZARD

Posts: 1439

Guys, guys,
I'd like to share my new favorite SU commander against OKW (1v1 may work in team games): Terror tactics.
Especially good against ultimate blobers. KV8 + fear propaganda + Howitzer. Delicious + free rage quits. You have to go T2, T4 however so you need to know how to handle these SU-85 well.
9 Dec 2014, 21:35 PM
#187
avatar of somenbjorn

Posts: 923

Haven't read through the thread at all. (Big whoop, wanna fight about it!)

But just looking at question posted. My mind is that most balance problems are a result of the sub-par design of both the OKW and Soviet factions.

For OKW it is most cost-efficient to skip the weak mid and go heavy infantry into lategame tanks. And for soviets it is either go heavy unit X or whatever cheese into call-ins.

OKW needs a mid-game option that would be more cost-efficient than going all-out infantry, and sovs need a drastic change to their teching and certain units needs their performance looked at.
10 Dec 2014, 09:36 AM
#188
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3283 | Subs: 1

Haven't read through the thread at all. (Big whoop, wanna fight about it!)

But just looking at question posted. My mind is that most balance problems are a result of the sub-par design of both the OKW and Soviet factions.

For OKW it is most cost-efficient to skip the weak mid and go heavy infantry into lategame tanks. And for soviets it is either go heavy unit X or whatever cheese into call-ins.

OKW needs a mid-game option that would be more cost-efficient than going all-out infantry, and sovs need a drastic change to their teching and certain units needs their performance looked at.


Something most cost efficient than volkshreck? what do you mean? fuel free P4 call-ins?

Let's look at OKW structure and commanders.
OKW lack of support weapons and suppression? no problem, Relic gave OKW 2 commanders with Mg36 really effective at low and medium level skills - less at high level but since you have better micro, you can go and play other commanders and use your micro with the Kubel. OKW now has the best early vehicle in game in hands of best players, it kills suppresses and is moving faster than anything else with super incredible vet bonus.

OKW lack of munition? no problem, let's give OKW cheap MP core infantry with incredible vet bonus and mid game elite infantry raping everything around moving on legs for the cost of 0 ammo (because Obers are definitively not late game units). At the end downgrade the munition starvation from 66% to 80%, letting OKW spam volkshreck into blob - the only OKW munition sink before end game. Incredibly effecting after two or three push/retreat to earn vet at low, mid and high skill level. This strat doesn't give Allied players any chance if they do not react perfectly in a matter of second to withdraw their tanks, something difficult at low and mid skill level. It is still effective at high level since it is only a-move base action, just bring in it your micro and it can become more deadly with a good focus fire and good usage of cover on your blob path.

OKW players lack of micro? Low to mid level skill? lack of understanding how to flank? No problem at all, Because one of your beloved commanders with MG36 has also Falls. Those falls are upgrade free with basic super strong AI weapons that can pop from any ambient building. There is also a tank in your path? No problem they also have a nice faust that always engine damage, perfect for your shreck blob.
They are MP expensive? Who cares since you only need to spam volks, cheap to build, cheap reinforce and You just need to pay for shreck. So just be a bit more careful to retreat faster your A-move push to save MP and the next one, push and pop your falls behind his line of fire. So much micro in this strat!
Or variante: A-move your blob and force him to concentrate his fire-power to counter you and use pop your falls anywhere else on the map to gain map control. Allied players will need to send at least 2 squads or a tank to counter you leaving you to push harder in the middle!

So what remains, fuel starvation? Since you do not need to spend more than 5 fuel for a early kubel push from the all early-mid game to stay competitive (except for your tiers dev), what is difficult to wait till a panther or a KT?

You have the upper hand, already T3 build and your opponent is struggled with your volks spam and must go T2 to counter you? It is almost GG, build a lunch and rape everything he has on the field. Be carefull because it requires a bit of micro, your foe could have unlock zooks or atnade. Too bad :(

He has the upper hand, just blob you volks with shreck to prevent his sherman/T34, only reliable units to push you mid game and wait for your panther to hit the field. During that time build obers or your call-ins falls/jaeger ammo free raping infantry unit. Just be careful of para, the only on-legs unit that can go toe to toe with your infantry at this stage of the game.

-----

OKW isn't a god faction and probably not the strongest in super high level, this is true. But Relic put so much effort to make sure every of it weakness is fairly balanced with commander abilities or unique game mechanisms such as forwarded trucks, commanders abilities to balance lack of support weapons, 3 commanders elite infantry popping up from ambient building ready to use, super T3 truck weapon that can cover 1/3 of many 1vs1 map and do damage until med tanks etc... that is just outrageous for Sov or USF that need to make strong choices on what strengths they need and what they leave appart from their strat.

The only OKW gap not covered is probably arty, but since OKW also has the fu-zuss... That's maybe the only real OKW gameplay decision making? Should I go arty first or panther...

10 Dec 2014, 15:52 PM
#189
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Dec 2014, 09:36 AMEsxile


Something most cost efficient than volkshreck? what do you mean? fuel free P4 call-ins?

Let's look at OKW structure and commanders.
OKW lack of support weapons and suppression? no problem, Relic gave OKW 2 commanders with Mg36 really effective at low and medium level skills - less at high level but since you have better micro, you can go and play other commanders and use your micro with the Kubel. OKW now has the best early vehicle in game in hands of best players, it kills suppresses and is moving faster than anything else with super incredible vet bonus.

OKW lack of munition? no problem, let's give OKW cheap MP core infantry with incredible vet bonus and mid game elite infantry raping everything around moving on legs for the cost of 0 ammo (because Obers are definitively not late game units). At the end downgrade the munition starvation from 66% to 80%, letting OKW spam volkshreck into blob - the only OKW munition sink before end game. Incredibly effecting after two or three push/retreat to earn vet at low, mid and high skill level. This strat doesn't give Allied players any chance if they do not react perfectly in a matter of second to withdraw their tanks, something difficult at low and mid skill level. It is still effective at high level since it is only a-move base action, just bring in it your micro and it can become more deadly with a good focus fire and good usage of cover on your blob path.

OKW players lack of micro? Low to mid level skill? lack of understanding how to flank? No problem at all, Because one of your beloved commanders with MG36 has also Falls. Those falls are upgrade free with basic super strong AI weapons that can pop from any ambient building. There is also a tank in your path? No problem they also have a nice faust that always engine damage, perfect for your shreck blob.
They are MP expensive? Who cares since you only need to spam volks, cheap to build, cheap reinforce and You just need to pay for shreck. So just be a bit more careful to retreat faster your A-move push to save MP and the next one, push and pop your falls behind his line of fire. So much micro in this strat!
Or variante: A-move your blob and force him to concentrate his fire-power to counter you and use pop your falls anywhere else on the map to gain map control. Allied players will need to send at least 2 squads or a tank to counter you leaving you to push harder in the middle!

So what remains, fuel starvation? Since you do not need to spend more than 5 fuel for a early kubel push from the all early-mid game to stay competitive (except for your tiers dev), what is difficult to wait till a panther or a KT?

You have the upper hand, already T3 build and your opponent is struggled with your volks spam and must go T2 to counter you? It is almost GG, build a lunch and rape everything he has on the field. Be carefull because it requires a bit of micro, your foe could have unlock zooks or atnade. Too bad :(

He has the upper hand, just blob you volks with shreck to prevent his sherman/T34, only reliable units to push you mid game and wait for your panther to hit the field. During that time build obers or your call-ins falls/jaeger ammo free raping infantry unit. Just be careful of para, the only on-legs unit that can go toe to toe with your infantry at this stage of the game.

-----

OKW isn't a god faction and probably not the strongest in super high level, this is true. But Relic put so much effort to make sure every of it weakness is fairly balanced with commander abilities or unique game mechanisms such as forwarded trucks, commanders abilities to balance lack of support weapons, 3 commanders elite infantry popping up from ambient building ready to use, super T3 truck weapon that can cover 1/3 of many 1vs1 map and do damage until med tanks etc... that is just outrageous for Sov or USF that need to make strong choices on what strengths they need and what they leave appart from their strat.

The only OKW gap not covered is probably arty, but since OKW also has the fu-zuss... That's maybe the only real OKW gameplay decision making? Should I go arty first or panther...



+1 Agree with all the above!
10 Dec 2014, 18:02 PM
#190
avatar of Speedkermit

Posts: 28

OKW is generally fine I think....

Except for those schrek blobs. Give volks sqauds two fausts instead of schreks and I think we're done.
10 Dec 2014, 18:11 PM
#191
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

Good points Esxile!
10 Dec 2014, 18:48 PM
#192
avatar of Enkidu

Posts: 351

Esxile: "build a lunch and rape everything he has on the field."
All that raping, gonna need a lunch break...
10 Dec 2014, 19:06 PM
#193
avatar of sultan36z

Posts: 45

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Dec 2014, 09:36 AMEsxile


Something most cost efficient than volkshreck? what do you mean? fuel free P4 call-ins?

Let's look at OKW structure and commanders.
OKW lack of support weapons and suppression? no problem, Relic gave OKW 2 commanders with Mg36 really effective at low and medium level skills - less at high level but since you have better micro, you can go and play other commanders and use your micro with the Kubel. OKW now has the best early vehicle in game in hands of best players, it kills suppresses and is moving faster than anything else with super incredible vet bonus.

OKW lack of munition? no problem, let's give OKW cheap MP core infantry with incredible vet bonus and mid game elite infantry raping everything around moving on legs for the cost of 0 ammo (because Obers are definitively not late game units). At the end downgrade the munition starvation from 66% to 80%, letting OKW spam volkshreck into blob - the only OKW munition sink before end game. Incredibly effecting after two or three push/retreat to earn vet at low, mid and high skill level. This strat doesn't give Allied players any chance if they do not react perfectly in a matter of second to withdraw their tanks, something difficult at low and mid skill level. It is still effective at high level since it is only a-move base action, just bring in it your micro and it can become more deadly with a good focus fire and good usage of cover on your blob path.

OKW players lack of micro? Low to mid level skill? lack of understanding how to flank? No problem at all, Because one of your beloved commanders with MG36 has also Falls. Those falls are upgrade free with basic super strong AI weapons that can pop from any ambient building. There is also a tank in your path? No problem they also have a nice faust that always engine damage, perfect for your shreck blob.
They are MP expensive? Who cares since you only need to spam volks, cheap to build, cheap reinforce and You just need to pay for shreck. So just be a bit more careful to retreat faster your A-move push to save MP and the next one, push and pop your falls behind his line of fire. So much micro in this strat!
Or variante: A-move your blob and force him to concentrate his fire-power to counter you and use pop your falls anywhere else on the map to gain map control. Allied players will need to send at least 2 squads or a tank to counter you leaving you to push harder in the middle!

So what remains, fuel starvation? Since you do not need to spend more than 5 fuel for a early kubel push from the all early-mid game to stay competitive (except for your tiers dev), what is difficult to wait till a panther or a KT?

You have the upper hand, already T3 build and your opponent is struggled with your volks spam and must go T2 to counter you? It is almost GG, build a lunch and rape everything he has on the field. Be carefull because it requires a bit of micro, your foe could have unlock zooks or atnade. Too bad :(

He has the upper hand, just blob you volks with shreck to prevent his sherman/T34, only reliable units to push you mid game and wait for your panther to hit the field. During that time build obers or your call-ins falls/jaeger ammo free raping infantry unit. Just be careful of para, the only on-legs unit that can go toe to toe with your infantry at this stage of the game.

-----

OKW isn't a god faction and probably not the strongest in super high level, this is true. But Relic put so much effort to make sure every of it weakness is fairly balanced with commander abilities or unique game mechanisms such as forwarded trucks, commanders abilities to balance lack of support weapons, 3 commanders elite infantry popping up from ambient building ready to use, super T3 truck weapon that can cover 1/3 of many 1vs1 map and do damage until med tanks etc... that is just outrageous for Sov or USF that need to make strong choices on what strengths they need and what they leave appart from their strat.

The only OKW gap not covered is probably arty, but since OKW also has the fu-zuss... That's maybe the only real OKW gameplay decision making? Should I go arty first or panther...




/thread + FIX + please!!!
10 Dec 2014, 19:20 PM
#194
10 Dec 2014, 20:22 PM
#195
avatar of Looney
Patrion 14

Posts: 423

Kinda agree with this thread, OKW is really different then other factions. If you look at the design, they don't have alot of things to spend ammo on. When relic buffed there ammo rate it buffed the whole faction as a whole. A little to much IMO.

When they buffed ammo rate back to 100% it went down hill with balance. OKW had to much to spend.
Think about it, I'm glad they started to nerf nades fuse time. It was way to strong and a no brainer when OKW had the ammo to spend. But that's not enough, when they buffed it to 100% they needed to nerf a lot as well, like making a lot of weapons on elite infantry buyable, like it is with US. They didn't do that though.

Now they nerfed ammo rate again (80%) it got a little better, still not enough though. OKW has way to linear play, when they had low ammo rate it forced OKW to think more about tossing that nade or buying that shreck.
11 Dec 2014, 03:04 AM
#196
avatar of nukmasta

Posts: 23

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Dec 2014, 05:28 AMRomeo

This makes holding territory considerably less important for OKW than other factions. That's why rushing straight for an enemy cutoff at the start of a game rather than back-capping is so effective.

That's where the big error is in my opinion. In a game that is almost entirely about capturing and holding territory, one faction doesn't actually need to capture and hold territory as badly as the others.

11 Dec 2014, 05:58 AM
#197
avatar of DakkaIsMagic

Posts: 403

It just seems that OKW has all its factors covered, along with one of the best recon planes(flare) in the game, A arty unit that every other faction wish they had in terms of acc of payload, a good light tank (Would take it over the T-70),TDs, super wire, and really interesting arty/call-ins that I wish the allies had (Like arty followed by a smoke barrage, its a nice touch).

Not going to say anything about the KT tho because I find it to be... easy to kill, I fear normal tigers more. Also I wish every faction had that non-doc specuhal vic like the strum-tiger, I find it fun (The fact you can decrew it on a rear shot while reloading).

Then we have to wait to see what crazy ideas they think of for the new commanders.
11 Dec 2014, 07:20 AM
#198
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

Well, all in all, let's remember that OKW started with a handicap of 66% fuel and 66% amo. Some of its units received nerfs and Relic, feeling bad about it, increased amo income to 100%. Then, because OKW was to strong, they decreased again the amo income to 80%.

Maybe, just maybe, if they will return the 66% amo income, alot of issues will be solved.

I mean some of you are complaining about obers, some about fallschirms, others about walking stuka and so on, but everybody complains about volkspam with schrecks.

But of course you know that without some AT solution early game OKW would be toasted (and this would not require alot of micro or a complicate strategy from allied player neither, Esxile, we saw this allready in the past).

So I'll say, make volkspam much harder to be achieved and definetly not in early game, BUT in the meanwhile DO SOMETHING about that stupid RAKETENWERFER.

It's obvious guys: it's harder to micro a raketen than a blob. Raketen is not that durable, but rather fragile so it can be killed alot faster. The only thing it needs to become a balanced unit and be a viable solution that would replace that volkspam mess, it's to become efficient again, EVEN FOR A PRICE INCREASE. Make it 290 mp, whatever, but give that thing a quicker aiming time and damage. Or, remove the building garrisoning ability but increase it's range and aiming time.

What would be the result? OKW player will try to combo one schreck volk squad with a raketenverfer and make them work tohether, which is more complicated than pumping volks, give them schrecks and blobing them.
11 Dec 2014, 09:12 AM
#199
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3283 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Dec 2014, 07:20 AMJohnnyB
Well, all in all, let's remember that OKW started with a handicap of 66% fuel and 66% amo. Some of its units received nerfs and Relic, feeling bad about it, increased amo income to 100%. Then, because OKW was to strong, they decreased again the amo income to 80%.

Maybe, just maybe, if they will return the 66% amo income, alot of issues will be solved.

I mean some of you are complaining about obers, some about fallschirms, others about walking stuka and so on, but everybody complains about volkspam with schrecks.

But of course you know that without some AT solution early game OKW would be toasted (and this would not require alot of micro or a complicate strategy from allied player neither, Esxile, we saw this allready in the past).

So I'll say, make volkspam much harder to be achieved and definetly not in early game, BUT in the meanwhile DO SOMETHING about that stupid RAKETENWERFER.

It's obvious guys: it's harder to micro a raketen than a blob. Raketen is not that durable, but rather fragile so it can be killed alot faster. The only thing it needs to become a balanced unit and be a viable solution that would replace that volkspam mess, it's to become efficient again, EVEN FOR A PRICE INCREASE. Make it 290 mp, whatever, but give that thing a quicker aiming time and damage. Or, remove the building garrisoning ability but increase it's range and aiming time.

What would be the result? OKW player will try to combo one schreck volk squad with a raketenverfer and make them work tohether, which is more complicated than pumping volks, give them schrecks and blobing them.


OKW has been designed around those downsides, ammo + fuel starvation. In fact, Relic made its gameplay around that and so give it strong unique mechanisms and commanders abilities to compensate it. The problem is today, there are no ammo and fuel starvation anymore if OKW only spam volks + shreck + They get their PUMA or Luch at the same time as any other faction getting their first tanks. They are even getting their first vehicle before anybody else if they want.

So I don't know what do you referring to when you say OKW has no AT capability. The Puma hit the field 1 minute later first USF light vehicle. OKW has actually the first hard AT capability of all faction with the PUMA. However I understand many people don't want to use it since shreck blobb is so easy to manage in comparison.
OKW is absolutely not a fuel starvation faction, they can access their T4 units faster than anybody else if they want to skip building med fuel cost units. So many time I see the SPH popping up while I'm still on my T1 - still waiting to be able to call for the major. And when the SPH is popped up. Nothing before the sherman can reliably enter in his perimeter and not be killed in a matter of seconds.

Yesterday I had a really interesting game. i wanted to not rush Sherman and go T3 with a stuart to work my micro in aggressive situation and try to win before having to go T4. How stupid I was, my opponent had just to build his SPH in the right spot covering his cut off, his munition point, one VP point and 90% of his fuel point capping area. I couldn't push anything till having a sherman.
But him... oh yes, he could push and cap and retreat safely behind his SPH... What an interesting gameplay. Thanks Relic - what a great idea this SPH and they probably love it since they increase its range a month ago... :D
So at the end, I build a Sherman and had to face his panther... So next time, I'll skip the investment on med tanks, go directly for a sherman and break him before he can have his Panther.
riflespam into Sherman, you like it or not, OKW gameplay force you into.

-----

I don't want OKW back to 66% ammo starvation, because it would make the OKW gameplay probably worst than it is today. A munition price for any of his super unit is 100% more interesting in term of gameplay. Let's the player decide where he wants to invest his resources, knowing he cannot have everything instead of starving and forcing him to do every time the same thing.



11 Dec 2014, 10:39 AM
#200
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Dec 2014, 09:12 AMEsxile


OKW has been designed around those downsides, ammo + fuel starvation. In fact, Relic made its gameplay around that and so give it strong unique mechanisms and commanders abilities to compensate it. The problem is today, there are no ammo and fuel starvation anymore if OKW only spam volks + shreck + They get their PUMA or Luch at the same time as any other faction getting their first tanks. They are even getting their first vehicle before anybody else if they want.

So I don't know what do you referring to when you say OKW has no AT capability. The Puma hit the field 1 minute later first USF light vehicle. OKW has actually the first hard AT capability of all faction with the PUMA. However I understand many people don't want to use it since shreck blobb is so easy to manage in comparison.
OKW is absolutely not a fuel starvation faction, they can access their T4 units faster than anybody else if they want to skip building med fuel cost units. So many time I see the SPH popping up while I'm still on my T1 - still waiting to be able to call for the major. And when the SPH is popped up. Nothing before the sherman can reliably enter in his perimeter and not be killed in a matter of seconds.

Yesterday I had a really interesting game. i wanted to not rush Sherman and go T3 with a stuart to work my micro in aggressive situation and try to win before having to go T4. How stupid I was, my opponent had just to build his SPH in the right spot covering his cut off, his munition point, one VP point and 90% of his fuel point capping area. I couldn't push anything till having a sherman.
But him... oh yes, he could push and cap and retreat safely behind his SPH... What an interesting gameplay. Thanks Relic - what a great idea this SPH and they probably love it since they increase its range a month ago... :D
So at the end, I build a Sherman and had to face his panther... So next time, I'll skip the investment on med tanks, go directly for a sherman and break him before he can have his Panther.
riflespam into Sherman, you like it or not, OKW gameplay force you into.

-----

I don't want OKW back to 66% ammo starvation, because it would make the OKW gameplay probably worst than it is today. A munition price for any of his super unit is 100% more interesting in term of gameplay. Let's the player decide where he wants to invest his resources, knowing he cannot have everything instead of starving and forcing him to do every time the same thing.





You speak about a T3 (Puma building) oppening. Let's not cut the choice of a T2 start (JagdPz building). That's why I'm talking about amo reduction together with a raketen buff. A munition price for those super-units still won't solve your problem, because OKW player will simply not invest in that expensive amo upgrade. Why should I pay for a lmg 34 for Obers or even an FG42 upgrade for fallschirms when all I need to do is invest amo in my volks blob and all my problems are solved? Especially if I chose a doctrine with infiltration grenades. In this particular case, it's certain that all I need is a volks blob and some sturmpio.
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