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russian armor

What do you think of an SU-85 buff?

20 Oct 2014, 16:17 PM
#21
avatar of Doomgunner

Posts: 74

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Oct 2014, 16:12 PMNapalm
It's totally fine. It is why you see it in every Soviet replay. (zzzz)


It is obsolete the moment Jadgtiger(or Elephant to a lesser extent) hit the field, that's probably why. At least with Medium Tanks or Jacksons you could Flank.
20 Oct 2014, 16:22 PM
#22
avatar of van Voort
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3509 | Subs: 2

It was not too hot before, as it basically had no AI and it was very hard to get offensive with T4.


Now there is the Jackson, which makes it look even worse
20 Oct 2014, 16:23 PM
#23
avatar of MorgolKing

Posts: 148

SU85s are great; they don't need a buff. IS2s and SU85s are very good tanks. T34s got buffed and many player prefer having the turret and AI capabilities of the T34 which is why the SU85 is used less, but imo it's the better bang for your buck.
20 Oct 2014, 16:23 PM
#24
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7741 | Subs: 2



It is obsolete the moment Jadgtiger(or Elephant to a lesser extent) hit the field, that's probably why. At least with Medium Tanks or Jacksons you could Flank.


Add effective infantry AT and we are done.
20 Oct 2014, 16:23 PM
#25
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053

Volks with shrecks kind of contributed to making it extinct... #1way how i kill the very few su-85's i see.
20 Oct 2014, 16:25 PM
#26
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1445 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Oct 2014, 15:44 PMBudwise
I think it performs fine. With focuses sight it is still a very formidable tank hunter.


Sorry, but no.

First of all you rarely want to be using focused sight because of the massive mobility penalty.

Secondly the SU85 desperately needs a higher penetration OR higher accuracy. It fails to penetrate both the Tiger and Panther reliably enough to make it worth the cost. It is 100% worthless against infantry (at least the Panther has MGs and speed to crush) - at 12 pop/tank if you build more than one (which you'll have to do) you'll really struggle to achieve any reasonable level of AI ability - especially when you start having to deal with Vet 3+ Obers or Vet 5 Volks... good luck.

I could keep going but I don't want this post to end up being too long. Basically you're paying way too much for a tank that can't reliably counter anything that you actually need it to counter. It has an effectively negative impact on your ability to counter Axis infantry (which get crazy scary late game). Not to mention the fact that PaK40s just rip the SU85 a new one. It is pretty much relegated to countering P4s/Ostwinds, and doesn't even do that well with PaK40s on the field.

It could use some combination (but not all) of: increased pen, increased accuracy, increased mobility, +5 range, +hp, cost reduction, and/or pop-cap reduction. I'd honestly build Su76s over Su85s in 90% of situations and the Su76 sucks too...
20 Oct 2014, 16:38 PM
#27
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225

The SU 85 in its current state is strong from Vet2-3 onwards and performs particularly well against the Tiger which it can harass pretty much at will on open maps. That being said, its just too weak without vet even in the AT role to be attractive over call-in options.
Now, leaving aside the more fundamental problems of the meta, if you ask me, one of two approximate approaches to increase its viability: Either price reduction to 300 mp/100 fuel OR minor buff to acceleration+rotation speed+penetration.
Or maybe, come to think of it, to put it in line with how tank destroyers actually operated in the war, give it an ambush camouflage ability: moderate camo as long as it is motionless, with penetration/accuracy bonus on the first shot.
20 Oct 2014, 16:44 PM
#28
avatar of Burts

Posts: 1702

It's a pretty bad unit considering that lol blitz for all german tanks got added back in.

Then it's also bad due to T4 having no reliable anti infantry whatsoever
20 Oct 2014, 16:50 PM
#29
avatar of Doomgunner

Posts: 74

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Oct 2014, 16:25 PMCieZ


Secondly the SU85 desperately needs a higher penetration OR higher accuracy. It fails to penetrate both the Tiger and Panther reliably enough to make it worth the cost. It is 100% worthless against infantry (at least the Panther has MGs and speed to crush) - at 12 pop/tank if you build more than one (which you'll have to do) you'll really struggle to achieve any reasonable level of AI ability - especially when you start having to deal with Vet 3+ Obers or Vet 5 Volks... good luck.
.


Imo the front armor(140) that gets penetrated by Schrek(180/170/160) at all ranges is a bigger problem than penetration or accuracy.
20 Oct 2014, 17:16 PM
#30
avatar of sneakking

Posts: 655

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post20 Oct 2014, 15:49 PMJaigen


You know people saying this kind of crap makes me realise how spoiled allied players are witth their e-8. 85 spam.


yes allies players are just so spoiled and privileged because they have call-in tanks. meanwhile the tiger and jagdtiger sit in the corner weeping tears
20 Oct 2014, 17:33 PM
#31
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

It was not too hot before, as it basically had no AI and it was very hard to get offensive with T4.


Now there is the Jackson, which makes it look even worse


I know right. Those nondoc Jacksons, Panthers, and KTs :(o_O>:(
20 Oct 2014, 17:39 PM
#32
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 481

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Oct 2014, 15:45 PMMadeMan
People like the Jagdpanzer IV that much? Hmm, I find I have better success with the SU-85, although that could be pure fluke. Is the SU-85 faster than the JPIV?

jagdpanzer is so good, do u know how hard it is to hit a pagdpanzer with a su85/zis/Jackson ect? its the hardest tank to hit, it misses and deflects a ton
20 Oct 2014, 17:41 PM
#33
avatar of TheMightyCthulu

Posts: 127

The Soviets - the real ones, fighting during WWII - found the SU-85's gun had trouble penetrating Axis armour, so it looks like Relic has this spot on. It's historically accurate, but doesn't make for good gameplay.

Replace the SU-85 with the SU-100, and problems solved. True, the SU-100 only really saw action in 1945, but just getting rid of the SU-85 for it would solve player complaints.
20 Oct 2014, 17:50 PM
#34
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

The Soviets - the real ones, fighting during WWII - found the SU-85's gun had trouble penetrating Axis armour, so it looks like Relic has this spot on. It's historically accurate, but doesn't make for good gameplay.

Replace the SU-85 with the SU-100, and problems solved. True, the SU-100 only really saw action in 1945, but just getting rid of the SU-85 for it would solve player complaints.


hey I love the idea of SU-100, but I doubt Relic would add new units that are not part of DLC :*(:*(


20 Oct 2014, 17:54 PM
#35
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 481

since they nerfed this unit 3 patches in a row it became a weaker units its still good but its to easy to kill cuz u cant turn attack a tank any. I thought it took a decent amount of micro turn attack panthers back in day and u still would lose anyways cuz u wont pen every time and the panther will. what they need to d owith this unit is buff its rotation and acceleration back up so we can turn and defend our su85s.
20 Oct 2014, 18:45 PM
#36
avatar of dasheepeh

Posts: 2056 | Subs: 1

Su85 definetly needs some love. Im for a buff.
20 Oct 2014, 18:49 PM
#37
avatar of Doomgunner

Posts: 74


jagdpanzer is so good, do u know how hard it is to hit a pagdpanzer with a su85/zis/Jackson ect? its the hardest tank to hit, it misses and deflects a ton


Jagdpanzer got a very small target size(17 vs 22/24 for SU85/Jackson) and the highest front armor(230 > 200 close range pen of Zis/SU85/Jackson) of any nondoc TD. The only ally unit that can 100% pen a Jagdpanzer from the front without special ability(AP/ HVAP round) is IS2(only close range)/ISU 152(only close & mid range).
21 Oct 2014, 01:13 AM
#38
avatar of GTTV

Posts: 68

All of my nope.

This unit is performing perfectly find as it is. I remember the days of the dreaded SU85 spam. I still have PTSD from those days...


Seriously though, I think the main reason we don't see this unit much anymore is because of the call-in meta. Fix that first then we can see how the SU85 performs with the new meta.

Yes it doesn't perform that great against heavy call-in tanks at the moment, but if both players tech correctly this thing performs great. Wait and see before changing I say.
21 Oct 2014, 01:19 AM
#39
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053

A turretless tank that gets flanked by zooming, better tanks which results in the death of said turretless tanks, as well as the death of the decision to make more of it.

Blitz, out. But seriously, this fantasy feature is, again, rendering feeble long range tanks obsolete because the distance can be closed lickety split.
21 Oct 2014, 01:46 AM
#40
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2014, 01:13 AMGTTV
All of my nope.

This unit is performing perfectly find as it is. I remember the days of the dreaded SU85 spam. I still have PTSD from those days...


Seriously though, I think the main reason we don't see this unit much anymore is because of the call-in meta. Fix that first then we can see how the SU85 performs with the new meta.

Yes it doesn't perform that great against heavy call-in tanks at the moment, but if both players tech correctly this thing performs great. Wait and see before changing I say.


It doesn't perform well against anything above a medium. I don't think it is a call-in meta issue. THe call-in meta may lead to the unit not being built, but it still performs rather poorly as a TD.
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