Login

russian armor

Is OKW the strongest faction currently?

22 Sep 2014, 09:16 AM
#22
avatar of tengen

Posts: 432

QueenRatchet, if you're going to say L2P at least give some constructive counterpoints.

As for others, do not derail the thread.
22 Sep 2014, 11:01 AM
#26
avatar of TheMachine
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 875 | Subs: 6

OKW have the best infantry and the best tanks. The fuel cost for tanks and the income handicap is negated because of the lower cost of the teching and how strong at stalling they are. Volks Shreks, Raketenwerfers, Pumas and Schu mines are strong, cheap AT that all scale so well and are hard to kill buying all the time in the world for a heavy tank. Whilst Panzerfusileers and Obersoldaten are the best infantry in the game, with the fastest repairs, with Soviet mine equivalents, with forward bases.

The late game is incredibly strong due to the King Tiger being an I win right click button in 1v1. Even with all the AT in the world, it can be incredibly hard to kill and basically entirely depends on the OKW making a mistake and getting caught out of position. The real strength of the King Tiger is the amount of AT investment required to kill it, leaving the Allies open to losing to Shreks/Raketenwerfers and Obers. Even then, SU-85's and Jacksons are so flimsy and easy to lose with absolutely no margin for error and are incredibly map dependant, despite having such dreadful penetration. The only options is to win before late game, reling on the doctrine specific call-ins, or hoping that the German makes a huge mis-play and gets the heavy tanks caught out of position undefended.

OKW was designed with a huge economy handy cap in place to compensate. Except now there's literally no munitions handi cap, the fuel handicap isn't a problem due to low teching costs, no fuel upgrades for infantry, scavenge and the power of non-fuel based AT granting great stalling. The long reinforce times are negated by having a forward base that drastically decreases retreat time.

There's so many strengths and with only a few weaknesses that are entirely complimented by Wehrmacht in team games. Could someone please tell me what the weaknesses of OKW actually still are? Because so far all I can really see is Soviet Snipers and ISU still being broken and the lack of Panzerfausts which only really matters for the first 10 minutes. What else is there?
22 Sep 2014, 11:03 AM
#27
avatar of flyingtiger

Posts: 142


Joking aside i do agree some units in OKW are unnecessarily overpower. It's just makes no sense when a heavy tank destroyer with strong armor, plenty of HP and lethal damage can shoot through everything on the battlefield, what's the tactic and skill involved in that? Allied infantry are already lost to Axis infantry, now they can't fight with tank and vehicle, no fair at all.
22 Sep 2014, 11:38 AM
#28
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

OKW have the best infantry and the best tanks. The fuel cost for tanks and the income handicap is negated because of the lower cost of the teching and how strong at stalling they are.


No, just no. Teching cost is something you spend one time in the game, it won't help/disadvantage you throughout the game. In addition, OKW cannot boost its fuel income by building caches. If it converts amo to fuel, that will oblige it to chose a particular developement path, that cannot be changed, and the shortages will be simple doubled: less fuel penalty, but amo penalty in addition.


Volks Shreks, Raketenwerfers, Pumas and Schu mines are strong, cheap AT that all scale so well and are hard to kill buying all the time in the world for a heavy tank. Whilst Panzerfusileers and Obersoldaten are the best infantry in the game, with the fastest repairs, with Soviet mine equivalents, with forward bases locking down a huge portion of the map and drastically lowering retreat times.


I disagree, volks and raketen do not protect you from a large scale armored assault. They will produce some damage, kill one -two tanks, but the result will be in Allied favor. In addition, they lack the mobility and efficiency of a concentrated vehicle force. Volks have one schreck, not two. Raketen has an embarassing range. Sorry, but no.


The late game is incredibly strong due to the King Tiger being an I win right click button in 1v1. Even with all the AT in the world, it can be incredibly hard to kill and basically entirely depends on the OKW making a mistake and getting caught out of position. The real strength of the King Tiger is the amount of AT investment required to kill it, leaving the Allies open to losing to Shreks/Raketenwerfers and Obers. Even then, SU-85's and Jacksons are so flimsy and easy to lose with absolutely no margin for error and are incredibly map dependant, despite having such dreadful penetration. The only options is to win before late game or to rely on the doctrine specific call-ins.


Not sure about that. I saw games lost by OKW with KT alive at the end of the game. If not killed - which is hard but not impossible - it cand effinetly be staled, due to its range and because it's sow.


OKW was designed with a huge economy handy cap in place to compensate. Except now there's literally no munitions handi cap, the fuel handicap isn't a problem due to low teching costs, no fuel upgrades for infantry, scavenge and the power of non-fuel based AT granting great stalling. The long reinforce times are negated by having a forward base that drastically decreases retreat time.


Scavanging does not provide the amount of resources needed. Non-fuel base AT it's easy to be counterplayed by balistic weapons and even by tanks! Forward base it's a very high risk investment.


Could someone please tell me what the weaknesses of OKW actually still are? Because so far all I can really see is Soviet Snipers and ISU still being broken and the lack of Panzerfausts which only really matters for the first 10 minutes. What else is there?


1. Forward buildings emplacement wich greatly expose them to AT and balistic fire. A forward T2 means many times a death sentence. A forward T4 is benefic and risky in the same time due to reasons stated above. On the other hand, if you want to be efficient, you are OBLIGED to put AT LEAST T4 forward.
2. Lack of enough AT middle game. In comparison, pzgrens + pak40 are more efficient than volks + raketen. And Ostheer doesn't have a fuel penalty! You can't be flexible, you need a puma beside those just to keep the pace.
3. Please count the number of tanks OKW build in a game. If someone tells me that 1 KT plus raketen plus volks can keep pace with a couple of zis guns, 4-5 T34s and an IS2 (just for example) I would tell him to think again.
4. Mines. Does anyone use mines with OKW? Maybe, but you have to reduce other upgrades for infantry and don't use off-map arty. Any mine planted will hold you back related to other investemnts that you need to do.
5. Lack of a serious medium tank. Puma is ok, no doubt, but it's not a tank, it's a tank replacement. It's thin and requires alot of micro.

From my experience, the player who relies on infantry, team weapons and ONE monster-tank will lose in most of cases before one player wich relies on infantry + alot of medium tanks. I even remember a 1v1 game that I had as a soviet, wich is extremely suggestive. As for AT,my opponent built one Elefant and several Pgrens. He lost everything in front of an aggressive attack composed from 4 T34s.
22 Sep 2014, 12:01 PM
#29
avatar of broodwarjc

Posts: 798

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2014, 11:38 AMJohnnyB


No, just no. Teching cost is something you spend one time in the game, it won't help/disadvantage you throughout the game. In addition, OKW cannot boost its fuel income by building caches. If it converts amo to fuel, that will oblige it to chose a particular developement path, that cannot be changed, and the shortages will be simple doubled: less fuel penalty, but amo penalty in addition.



I disagree, volks and raketen do not protect you from a large scale armored assault. They will produce some damage, kill one -two tanks, but the result will be in Allied favor. In addition, they lack the mobility and efficiency of a concentrated vehicle force. Volks have one schreck, not two. Raketen has an embarassing range. Sorry, but no.



Not sure about that. I saw games lost by OKW with KT alive at the end of the game. If not killed - which is hard but not impossible - it cand effinetly be staled, due to its range and because it's sow.



Scavanging does not provide the amount of resources needed. Non-fuel base AT it's easy to be counterplayed by balistic weapons and even by tanks! Forward base it's a very high risk investment.



1. Forward buildings emplacement wich greatly expose them to AT and balistic fire. A forward T2 means many times a death sentence. A forward T4 is benefic and risky in the same time due to reasons stated above. On the other hand, if you want to be efficient, you are OBLIGED to put AT LEAST T4 forward.
2. Lack of enough AT middle game. In comparison, pzgrens + pak40 are more efficient than volks + raketen. And Ostheer doesn't have a fuel penalty! You can't be flexible, you need a puma beside those just to keep the pace.
3. Please count the number of tanks OKW build in a game. If someone tells me that 1 KT plus raketen plus volks can keep pace with a couple of zis guns, 4-5 T34s and an IS2 (just for example) I would tell him to think again.
4. Mines. Does anyone use mines with OKW? Maybe, but you have to reduce other upgrades for infantry and don't use off-map arty. Any mine planted will hold you back related to other investemnts that you need to do.
5. Lack of a serious medium tank. Puma is ok, no doubt, but it's not a tank, it's a tank replacement. It's thin and requires alot of micro.

From my experience, the player who relies on infantry, team weapons and ONE monster-tank will lose in most of cases before one player wich relies on infantry + alot of medium tanks. I even remember a 1v1 game that I had as a soviet, wich is extremely suggestive. As for AT,my opponent built one Elefant and several Pgrens. He lost everything in front of an aggressive attack composed from 4 T34s.


This.^
Also the Munitions increase was due to taking too long to get panzershreks and early M3 being even more devastating than it currently is to early game OKW. Maxim and sniper spam is still a big problem for OKW.
22 Sep 2014, 12:01 PM
#30
avatar of TheMachine
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 875 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2014, 11:38 AMJohnnyB

1. Forward buildings emplacement wich greatly expose them to AT and balistic fire. A forward T2 means many times a death sentence. A forward T4 is benefic and risky in the same time due to reasons stated above. On the other hand, if you want to be efficient, you are OBLIGED to put AT LEAST T4 forward.


You think having the option of risk/reward building placement is a weakness? Losing your buildings isn't a faction problem. You don't actually have to put your buildings forward if you don't want to. You will suffer form it but if well placed building snipes shouldn't really be a problem given how essentially all maps, especially 1v1 have no shortage of incredibly safe forward base spots that are protected by heavy shot blockers leaving very little potential for sniping. The only maps I can think of that don't have "free" forward base location behind hedges or garrisons is Langres North and maybe Road to Kharkov North?

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2014, 11:38 AMJohnnyB

2. Lack of enough AT middle game. In comparison, pzgrens + pak40 are more efficient than volks + raketen. And Ostheer doesn't have a fuel penalty! You can't be flexible, you need a puma beside those just to keep the pace.


This is one of those places where we will disagree. I personally think Volks Shreks are the best and most accessible infantry-based AT in the game. You always have Volks, so you don't have to invest in a squad to get them, the Shreks rake up so much veterency for the squad if they get vehicle hits and the incredible strength of the Grenade gives them the anti infantry power to keep them very relevant in infantry battles. As for Raketen Werfers they absolutely suffer from the lower range but there's so many 1v1 maps that have really key garrisons that prevent so much light vehicle play. Then you've also got schu mines, which people don't use for no reason. Even then, I agree mid game T-34 and Sherman play can be really punishing but when else are the OKW supposed to be punished if not early game or late game? Shermans can scale decently as a meat shield for Jacksons but you rarely see T-34's come out given how worthless they come once that Puma or Panther roles out. Then it's wasted fuel that needed to be an IS-2/ISU or T-34/85's.

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2014, 11:38 AMJohnnyB

3. Please count the number of tanks OKW build in a game. If someone tells me that 1 KT plus raketen plus volks can keep pace with a couple of zis guns, 4-5 T34s and an IS2 (just for example) I would tell him to think again.


Again I just gotta disagree here. Yes I absolutely think they could when you look at the overall faction and not just cherry pick certain situations which involved the King Tiger getting caught of position and mis-played. Nothing for Soviets actually penetrates consistently enough and without getting 3 shotted. Maybe you should watch more replays, because the only thing for Soviet that works is 2 IS-2's, ISU (which is broken) or Balls deep point black T-34'85's, of which you need 4. As for Americans... all you've got is balls deep Easy 8's of which you again need like 4, or Jacksons if you're playing on Langreskaya where Jacksons actually are able to work intended because of how open the map is. Anything other than Langres for 1v1 really is just a case of win on VP's or hope the King Tiger gets caught out of position unsupported. If you disagree in saying late game OKW isn't completely broken against USF at the very least, then you're disagreeing with >95% of the community here. Perhaps watch some more replays/streams.


jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2014, 11:38 AMJohnnyB

4. Mines. Does anyone use mines with OKW? Maybe, but you have to reduce other upgrades for infantry and don't use off-map arty. Any mine planted will hold you back related to other investemnts that you need to do.


Again you're complaining about the option to build awesome mines which you don't often see because of how many other meaningful munitions choices there are for OKW with all the great upgrades and the potency and accessibility of the grenades. All it takes is one Schu mine to catch a tank and completely change. Meanwhile when USF doesn't get any at all (Apart from m20 which hardly counts) and Soviet spams mines all the time everywhere because of the lack of other meaningful munitions choices with anything other than Guard play. You probably wouldn't see Schu mines built much by Wehr if they could because of all the other options.

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2014, 11:38 AMJohnnyB

5. Lack of a serious medium tank. Puma is ok, no doubt, but it's not a tank, it's a tank replacement. It's thin and requires alot of micro.

You don't need a medium tank when you have the best infantry in the game. What do you want the medium tank for? You have Obersoldaten for anti infantry, even then there's the Panzer2 which is a monster. Then there's Volks Shreks, Raketens, Pumas and schu mines for AT. It's not like Medium tanks would be a counter to light vehicles because of how much later they arrive. I doubt you would see medium tanks anyway because of the fuel handicap, you'd be better off just waiting for the Panther or King Tiger as normal. How often do you see the Ostwind?
22 Sep 2014, 12:03 PM
#31
avatar of Brachiaraidos

Posts: 627

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2014, 11:38 AMJohnnyB
No, just no. Teching cost is something you spend one time in the game, it won't help/disadvantage you throughout the game. In addition, OKW cannot boost its fuel income by building caches. If it converts amo to fuel, that will oblige it to chose a particular developement path, that cannot be changed, and the shortages will be simple doubled: less fuel penalty, but amo penalty in addition.


It helps you massively because your teching structure is fast, free and cheap. You can get all your buildings down and a repair bunker and a med bunker and a super anti-everything post for a grand total of 150 fuel.

That happens fast, allows the OKW to get early access to any unit they want, and unrivaled flexibility in where they chose to spend their fuel. The tech advantage for the OKW is massive, and converting ammo to fuel still leaves you with a reasonable flow for buying those shrecks you need by the time you need them; since OKW got buffed to 100% fuel their muni income has been overflowing compared to what they need to spend it on.

I disagree, volks and raketen do not protect you from a large scale armored assault. They will produce some damage, kill one -two tanks, but the result will be in Allied favor. In addition, they lack the mobility and efficiency of a concentrated vehicle force. Volks have one schreck, not two. Raketen has an embarassing range. Sorry, but no.


You are doing it so, SO wrong then.

The major threat of the early available tanks (t34, T70) is their capacity to engage, chase and eventually run down entire squads if the proper AT is not there. That's just not an option against a properly fielded OKW army.

The racketen starts off reasonably limp but becomes progressively more and more terrifying as it vets up- which it does very, very quickly because of how cheap it is. Volks, too, start to vet to the sky once tanks start pushing. This makes them all more durable and much more capable of weathering armored pushes early on. A tank can push, but it can't overrun unless you were already beat.

Similarly, Schu mines are a life saver if you're waiting for a panther. Put them on chase paths for retreating units, snare them and watch the racketen start to do its thing. And all that vet it gets is super easy to preserve, because the damn thing can retreat.

Pumas are easily available from embarrassingly early in the game (i like to use them to chase off problem snipers). They out range all allied early tanks, as well as move faster than them, and screened with volks utterly obliterate tanks, only getting more potent with their equally speedy vetting up.

And you have a panther post buff with even more accuracy than the Ost one. AND you can get a self-spotting command panther if you want to go for doctrinal armour. Oh, and sturmtigers still one shot tanks, which is stupidly easy to pull off if you do a little mine play.

And, y'know, Jagdtigers.

OKW has tank beating capacity like you would barely even imagine having in any other army. If you're getting pushed off the map by early vehicles, you are doing it so wrong.

If you're getting crushed by tank 'spam', I honestly don't know how to help you. How the hell did your opponent manage to rustle up (40/50+120+100+100+100+100) before you managed to kill any of his T34 or get the panther/pumas you need to make them look like useless kittens?


Not sure about that. I saw games lost by OKW with KT alive at the end of the game. If not killed - which is hard but not impossible - it cand effinetly be staled, due to its range and because it's slow.


If your opponent had enough AT and field presence to weather a KT and still beat you down, you lost the game well before the KT arrived. Either poor micro, poor planning or just poor map control let you down. A lot (and I mean a lot) of bad players stall and stall while handing over massive advantages to their opponent, all in the hope of saving for 'that one unit' which they think should win them the game. Be it an ISU, a Tiger ace, a King Tiger. Whatever it is, it's not worth it.


Scavanging does not provide the amount of resources needed. Non-fuel base AT it's easy to be counterplayed by balistic weapons and even by tanks! Forward base it's a very high risk investment.


Scavenging is not your only cource of income. It's just another one of the many ways in which OKW fuel 'penalties' turn out to make them one of the more easily managed armies in the whole game. Converting to push things out sooner, scavenging to make the most of allied (and enemy) losses. It all adds up, and coupled with their cheap tech and some shockingly cheap units, means that calling them fuel 'starved' is a joke.

1. Forward buildings emplacement wich greatly expose them to AT and balistic fire. A forward T2 means many times a death sentence. A forward T4 is benefic and risky in the same time due to reasons stated above. On the other hand, if you want to be efficient, you are OBLIGED to put AT LEAST T4 forward.
2. Lack of enough AT middle game. In comparison, pzgrens + pak40 are more efficient than volks + raketen. And Ostheer doesn't have a fuel penalty! You can't be flexible, you need a puma beside those just to keep the pace.
3. Please count the number of tanks OKW build in a game. If someone tells me that 1 KT plus raketen plus volks can keep pace with a couple of zis guns, 4-5 T34s and an IS2 (just for example) I would tell him to think again.
4. Mines. Does anyone use mines with OKW? Maybe, but you have to reduce other upgrades for infantry and don't use off-map arty. Any mine planted will hold you back related to other investemnts that you need to do.
5. Lack of a serious medium tank. Puma is ok, no doubt, but it's not a tank, it's a tank replacement. It's thin and requires alot of micro.



Uuuuug. I can't even be bothered with this tripe. L2P.
22 Sep 2014, 12:05 PM
#32
avatar of Greeb

Posts: 971

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2014, 11:38 AMJohnnyB

5. Lack of a serious medium tank. Puma is ok, no doubt, but it's not a tank, it's a tank replacement. It's thin and requires alot of micro.


Pressing the smoke button each time you're in a pinch is now called micro?? :huh:

In hands of a good player, puma is nearly invulnerable unless it doesn't hit a mine.
22 Sep 2014, 12:06 PM
#33
avatar of The amazing Chandler

Posts: 1355

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2014, 04:37 AMDerBaer
I actually think the KT is fine. It's a big investment, unlike the other super heavies, and it has to get up close. When focussed, it goes down very fast.


I am not so sure about that, i had 2 ZISs and 1 SU 85 firing on it but the KT just didn't give a sh.. !
Everybody complaining about the ISU but no one says anything about the KT. It is freaking Strong, almost (if not for sure) a win Unit.
22 Sep 2014, 12:35 PM
#34
avatar of Burts

Posts: 1702

OKW is the best faction hands down. Best tanks, best infantry, best doctrinal infantry, just hands down the best.
22 Sep 2014, 12:50 PM
#35
avatar of Steiner500

Posts: 183

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2014, 04:15 AMNinjaWJ
What do you guys think? Are the OKW the best all-around faction at the moment?


They have a great late game presence with KT and Jagdtiger, plus Obersoldaten. I think they had a weak early game a couple patches ago, but the recent patches changed that. With the Kubel buffs and Volks buffs, OKW seem to be a great faction from early to the late game.

Yes,

In 2v2/3v3/4v4 it is the strongest faction.
Especially in connection with some Ostheer Commanders.
For Example: OKW + Luftcommander. The Power is incredible.
22 Sep 2014, 13:05 PM
#36
avatar of capiqua
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 985 | Subs: 2

Relic always looking for new strategies. The Forward buildings emplacement is much benefit. You save yourself the time to displace to the units of the normal base to the place where to fight.

In maps 1v1 is little, but 4v4 maps when units (no OWK) arrive on the fighting. OBW has defenses and the infantry is fully reinforced.
22 Sep 2014, 13:05 PM
#37
avatar of GustavGans

Posts: 747



I am not so sure about that, i had 2 ZISs and 1 SU 85 firing on it but the KT just didn't give a sh.. !
Everybody complaining about the ISU but no one says anything about the KT. It is freaking Strong, almost (if not for sure) a win Unit.


Don't even bother trying to take out a KT from the front. The only chance to take it out is to get behind it. A good player will use his KT defensively thus making it very hard to pull off a flanking manoeuvre.

Speaking from 2v2+ experience, Artillery is absolutely mandatory if you wan't to beat solid OKW play.

Overall the are probably the best faction because every unit is actually useful.

In my opinion the other factions need a buff rather than OKW needing a nerf.
22 Sep 2014, 13:08 PM
#38
avatar of broodwarjc

Posts: 798

Does OKW have some of the best stuff? Yes. Does it have to work to get it? Yes. Is this thread devolving into OKW is so OP they should be nerfed out of the game? Not quite, but it is getting there...
22 Sep 2014, 13:12 PM
#39
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053

The price of a unit does not justify unit superiority.

An OKW player of equal skill to an Allied opponent will win every time.

The other factions cannot compete. Not even Ostheer vs. OKW...

The OKW faction is simply designed from selfish desire. This isnt a shrinking, 1944 German army. Its hell with a German insignia.
22 Sep 2014, 13:21 PM
#40
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1



Uuuuug. I can't even be bothered with this tripe. L2P.


Please try some 1v1 with OKW.

To Pewnage: I realy appreciate your point of view, I will not deny that it's room for improvement in my OKW play, but I am sure I made some valid points there, as long as while playing soviets things feel much easier in matches that involve higher ranks that I met while playing with OKW, and I don't really think this is because I am such a good soviet player.

To all: As Broodwar stated it, is this tread transforming into OKW is so OP?
I have to tell you that I was in soviet and USF shoes also, though OKW is my first choice. I met some good OKW players that beat me, but I hadn't used B4 or katiushas in those cases, nor ISU 152. What if I had?

I think that if you have a little experience in what to do against OKW and watch some high level replays, fighting against it wouldn't be such problematic anymore.

1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Livestreams

unknown 2
South Africa 1
Canada 3
unknown 1

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • U.S. Forces flag shadics ARG.
  • U.S. Forces flag TüMe
  • Ostheer flag The101stAirBorne
  • Ostheer flag Clororaa
uploaded by TüMe

Board Info

222 users are online: 222 guests
8 posts in the last 24h
162 posts in the last week
760 posts in the last month
Registered members: 37471
Welcome our newest member, FEEDme
Most online: 1221 users on 25 Feb 2020, 12:03 PM