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An idea I thought of regarding the balance forum

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Vaz
12 Sep 2014, 03:33 AM
#1
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1158

I was thinking it would be fun for coh2.org to feature a kind of balance argument through replay/video for the balance forum. It would work like this:

  • Some troll claims that something OP/UP
  • CoH2.org organizes a custom game between troll and a high ranking player
  • Troll uses OP thing to try and win battles against top player
  • If troll refuses, thread is deleted and temp ban issued
  • If troll fails in-game thread is locked
  • If troll succeeds thread stays open for further discussion



Obviously this isn't something that can be done for every thread, but it would be fun to just pick one or two a week and do it. This isn't about whether the person can beat the high ranker (like actually win the custom game), this is about whether the unit actually tips battles unfairly and even a high ranking player can't beat it. Obviously if the defender is a high ranker it may not be entertaining.

Afterwards a replay and video cuts can be uploaded to the thread to either prove wrong or support thought.
29 Jul 2014, 12:16 PM by siuking666:
T34/76 is NOT a joke on my hands; Maybe on your hands you make it suck shit? but on me, No. I can kill a stug with a little micro, go toe to toe with a Panzer 4. Is it a joke? LOL T34/85 is apparently a very good tank. But no one says it "one hit wipe" or elefant penetration; up to a point i think this little medium tank just have too much health and too much firepower with that fuel cost.
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braciszek
12 Sep 2014, 03:41 AM
#2
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053

Showing a playercard matters, too. You need to be able to determine if the poster even plays the game.
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Vaz
12 Sep 2014, 03:44 AM
#3
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1158

I find it kind of funny you say that with yours set to private. I guess your not starting many balance threads though.
29 Jul 2014, 12:16 PM by siuking666:
T34/76 is NOT a joke on my hands; Maybe on your hands you make it suck shit? but on me, No. I can kill a stug with a little micro, go toe to toe with a Panzer 4. Is it a joke? LOL T34/85 is apparently a very good tank. But no one says it "one hit wipe" or elefant penetration; up to a point i think this little medium tank just have too much health and too much firepower with that fuel cost.
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ZombieRommel
12 Sep 2014, 04:31 AM
#4
avatar of ZombieRommel

Posts: 91

I like this idea but I think the thread should remain open regardless of outcome and replay + highlights should be uploaded for analysis.

Too often players will sling out wild accusations about what actually goes on in-game without any supporting evidence. Showing evidence would at the very least make discussions more interesting.

I'm also not sure how you'd do this with late game units, because a top player could theoretically beat out a scrubby whiner long before a late game unit ever surfaced.

But it is frustrating when you're reading a balance thread and the original poster is throwing out wild accusations that you know are untrue, and you can tell he is probably super terrible at the game.

BTW, are you EliteVaz from CoH1?
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Bulgakov
12 Sep 2014, 04:40 AM
#5
avatar of Bulgakov

Posts: 987

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2014, 03:33 AMVaz
this is about whether the unit actually tips battles unfairly and even a high ranking player can't beat it.


There is no such unit that makes it possible to beat a high-raanking player if you ae considerably worse than him at the game.


Not a bad idea, BUUUUT even with the OP stuff, very few players can beat the top players. Even if you made them more OP, they'd find it hard. How about the same idea but matching the players against another player of similar skill?


Remember, the OP things only tip the balance a little. There's nothing in the game now which is an auto-win button. Mostly they just tip the balance 3-5%. (Or just make the game incredibly unfun to play, Maxim VonMaxim)

You'd need more than 3-5% to beat Jesulin, Barton, Cruzz, etc. Everyone would lose to the pr0s, so with your method, nothing would ever be OP. I say bring back the old Pgrens and Flamer HT then put this method in action! :D


Let's keep it constructive
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JohnnyB
12 Sep 2014, 05:30 AM
#6
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2014, 04:40 AMBulgakov



Not a bad idea, BUUUUT even with the OP stuff, very few players can beat the top players. Even if you made them more OP, they'd find it hard. How about the same idea but matching the players against another player of similar skill?



Exactly. What is the definition of OP unit? It's a unit that, let alone your skill, gives you a non-deserved upper-hand in the fight against your opponent (the opponent being of equal skill or very close in skill), fight which would be otherwise lost.

Secondly, related to the third point "If troll succeeds, thread stays open for further discussion", it's wrong judgement. If "troll" succeeds, than the unit should be modified. Period.

One single game it's not enough, sometimes even best players can have a bad day. There should be at list 3 games, and then a game between top 10 players.

Several tests must be made, in order to take the right decision. BUT: This is what Relic should do before "balancing" the game through patches. NOT US!!
BeefSurge wrote:
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
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Cannonade
12 Sep 2014, 06:17 AM
#7
avatar of Cannonade

Posts: 752

"I can kick your ass, so I'm right".

Yeah, I don't think so.
"You are competitive if play to win and make efforts to improve." -Basilone
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Lucas Troy
12 Sep 2014, 06:19 AM
#8
avatar of Lucas Troy

Posts: 508

Maybe we should just have a special balance forum where only people in the top 200 can post, but everyone else can view? I think that'd be interesting, actually. Keep the other forum, of course.



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Kallipolan
12 Sep 2014, 10:15 AM
#9
avatar of Kallipolan

Posts: 196

Yeah, I do wish more people would take into account the way that the game differs based on the skill level you are match-made at. Player Cards are important for this reason, they give context for what someone is saying about balance. Sometimes, I just kind of laugh when someone at rank 3500 posts a thread about X being OP. Not out of elitism (I totally respect that everyone plays at their own level, god knows I suck at lots of other games), but because I feel like someone at that level should understand that their experience of the game doesn't reflect how the game is best played.

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2014, 06:19 AMLucas Troy
Maybe we should just have a special balance forum where only people in the top 200 can post, but everyone else can view? I think that'd be interesting, actually. Keep the other forum, of course.



I really like this idea. Maybe this forum could also have a strict policy of requiring citations i.e. if you talk about how X unit is OP OMG RELIC FIX PLS, you have to provide at least 3 replays that demonstrate how and why X is OP.
Playercard of Kallie

1v1: P2v2: P3v3: None4v4: None
1v1: P2v2: None3v3: None4v4: None
1v1: P2v2: None3v3: None4v4: None
1v1: P2v2: None3v3: None4v4: None


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Katitof
12 Sep 2014, 11:10 AM
#10
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17891 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2014, 06:17 AMCannonade
"I can kick your ass, so I'm right".

Yeah, I don't think so.


Regardless of the outcome duels like that wouldn't be a bad idea.

If anything, they would show is if the one who is crying about imbalance even have a clue on how to play the game.

Come on, don't tell me you wouldn't want to see sierra, lolcake, ssheini featured in mini tournament.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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Cannonade
12 Sep 2014, 11:52 AM
#11
avatar of Cannonade

Posts: 752

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2014, 11:10 AMKatitof


Regardless of the outcome duels like that wouldn't be a bad idea.

If anything, they would show is if the one who is crying about imbalance even have a clue on how to play the game.

Come on, don't tell me you wouldn't want to see sierra, lolcake, ssheini featured in mini tournament.


Dev have often lost matches to community players, even though its granted to assume they know the game and its stats better than any of us.

That alone is sufficient to eliminate the notion of "I beat you therefore Im right".

If I fight you IRL and beat you till you cry for mercy, does that make my opinion right?
If you think so, lets do it, you and me. Loser leaves CoH2.org forever.

We can make a poll for which streamer livecasts it (Id prefer Sib myself)

My army experience vs your supermarket shopping cart pushing experience!

Yes/No?
"You are competitive if play to win and make efforts to improve." -Basilone
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ludd3emm
12 Sep 2014, 12:38 PM
#12
avatar of ludd3emm

Posts: 292

I would like to challenge Vetlolcake and Sierra. I'm going to play Axis against them.

:megusta:
Ade, mein liebes Schätzelein
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Siberian
12 Sep 2014, 12:51 PM
#13
avatar of Siberian

Posts: 545 | Subs: 3

AM I GOING TO GET TO HOST A FIGHT TO THE DEATH!? Kreygasm


[twitch=www.twitch.tv/]chapter_id=SiberianGT[/twitch]
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Pedro_Jedi
12 Sep 2014, 13:32 PM
#14
avatar of Pedro_Jedi

Posts: 543

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2014, 11:10 AMKatitof

Come on, don't tell me you wouldn't want to see sierra, lolcake, ssheini featured in mini tournament.


+1000

I'd like to add Acelolcake, Vetlolcake's twisted twin
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zarok47
12 Sep 2014, 13:47 PM
#15
avatar of zarok47

Posts: 587

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2014, 11:52 AMCannonade


Dev have often lost matches to community players, even though its granted to assume they know the game and its stats better than any of us.

That alone is sufficient to eliminate the notion of "I beat you therefore Im right".

If I fight you IRL and beat you till you cry for mercy, does that make my opinion right?
If you think so, lets do it, you and me. Loser leaves CoH2.org forever.

We can make a poll for which streamer livecasts it (Id prefer Sib myself)

My army experience vs your supermarket shopping cart pushing experience!

Yes/No?


I would pay to see that fight.
jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2018, 15:21 PMFelixTHM

Being bad at the game isn't something balance patches can fix.
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