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State of the balance according to Imperial Dane

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18 Jul 2014, 19:39 PM
#21
avatar of MJM1987

Posts: 13

i agree with most of what he said appart from everything about OKW. Panthers do better vs inf for example than luchs?, simply not true. Also volks scale quite well and don't need any buffs. And ubersoldaten aren't fine they are bloody op, even if they come out late. only thing i do agree with is that fuseliers need a slight nerf.
18 Jul 2014, 19:43 PM
#22
avatar of ilGetUSomDay

Posts: 612


True, but Vet Rifles / M3 / WC51 can do the same, it's just part of the game. You're still sinking more into those Grenadiers than you would if you had your own T1 Scout Cars.



But the Jackson has a huge range advantage as well, if exploited properly the Panzer IV shouldn't get close. The Jackson should be supported as well since it lacks AI abilities.



while I would never use troop training early vs USF, that gren squad will win 2v1 fights against Soviet stuff. The only time it could back fire is if a sniper was out early.

As for the Jackson, SU-85 also out ranges quite a few tanks, Does that mean it never gets flanked or killed? P4s can get close on many of the maps due to lay out or true line of sight. My point is while the Jackson is a great TD, it is hard to keep hold of your advantages late game vs Ostheer or OKW, and I think the main problem is their tanks. This is also assuming some of the early game of US gets toned down.
18 Jul 2014, 19:44 PM
#23
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4

Dane is a decent player, a great caster but is one of the most blatantly biased players. At some points in alpha testing OKW was ungodly overpowered and he still wanted to buff them. He also thought that the 100 range elefant needed a buff, literally called it useless.

Anyways, as I was saying, I respect dane as a person, player, and caster but his balance opinions are far from objective, nor should most of them be taken seriously.
18 Jul 2014, 19:46 PM
#24
avatar of coh2player

Posts: 1571

Some things, such as:

He advocates giving the volks a LMG or STG44 upgrade in addition to their panzershreck.

5 man LMG34 with panzershreck squad...That's a strong core infantry unit right there (would need an increase in manpower price to compensate). Why would obersolaten be made anymore then..?
18 Jul 2014, 19:48 PM
#25
avatar of Napalm

Posts: 1588 | Subs: 2

Some things, such as:

Why would obersolaten be made anymore then..?


Because at Vet 5 they should have jet packs and a automatic grenade launcher.
18 Jul 2014, 19:52 PM
#26
avatar of TheMightyCthulu

Posts: 127

I think it's pretty clear Maxims need a nerf of some sort, dunno how anyone could disagree with him on that.
18 Jul 2014, 19:55 PM
#27
avatar of ilGetUSomDay

Posts: 612

I think it's pretty clear Maxims need a nerf of some sort, dunno how anyone could disagree with him on that.


I dont think any one is disagreeing with him so far
18 Jul 2014, 20:00 PM
#28
avatar of OZtheWiZARD

Posts: 1439

I'd say his analysis and understanding of the game is waaay better than a lot of the balance forum heroes here.
He made some odd comments but I do agree on MG42, Volks and much more.
Also I agree that US late game is really strong but majority of players can't utilize it well.
Wermaht needs some love as this has been carried over from pre expansion era.
Dpn't necessarily think Maxim over performs it's rather MG that is not up to its standards.
PzII is in a weird tier. It comes way too late to be fully effective and at that point in the game it's better to save fuel and go Obersoldaten.
Volks loose to every infantry in the game (maybe except to Cons at max range) and in the late game they are only a shreck carriers and having only one and no way to cripple a vehicle doesn't make them and good at AT neither. I get the combined arms thing but if you invest heavily in volks you are limiting your AI. Grenades are giving them a bit of edge sometimes but it's not hard to dodge them and OKW can't really spam them neither.

People complain about Obersoldaten but they are 2 shooted by a Sherman or T-34.

Kugel it's too clunky. HP boost it got helps but even in the early game it can be focus fired so easily. Plus terrible patching on top of that.

OKW AA trcuk can't even safely retreat from an AT gun without using a smoke. AT gun will always get it. That's really all you ahve to do to counter this unit. Get a ZiS and just right click it. Don't worry about infantry. You got 6 men squads.

Stuka is a funny one. People say it's OP but I don't think you get your money worth when getting one. 100 fuel investment that is good at destroying units or punishing really bad players. Single light tank can hunt it down.

So in the end I agree on his opinion that OKW is too specialized. I understand that's the way it is but when you design army in this way you have to make sure EVERY unit is useful and comes at the right time.

By no means OKW is a weak faction. It's strong but only in a "set" frame. When you go beyond this frame you get mediocre units that are overpriced.
Plus going the same BO every game will get boring after a while.
18 Jul 2014, 20:33 PM
#29
avatar of Mr.Deeds

Posts: 105

I'm guessing he is an Oberkommando player since his opinion on the other 3 factions ranged from ok to good while his OKW analysis is so completely off it is laughable.
18 Jul 2014, 20:55 PM
#30
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4899

I'm guessing he is an Oberkommando player since his opinion on the other 3 factions ranged from ok to good while his OKW analysis is so completely off it is laughable.


He plays all factions, but I feel like his expectations + poor experience with OKW has ruined his view of them. OKW is so weirdly designed, imo they suffer from Panzer Elite syndrome. That is to say whenever I play them, I feel like they have a lot of options, but not any options I actually need. Yeah I got like 7 light vehicles, 4 infantry types, and 3 heavy tanks, but what I need is either out of reach or simply not part of the faction.
18 Jul 2014, 21:03 PM
#31
avatar of Mr.Deeds

Posts: 105

The Puma is really good. High speed, high range, good penetration and comes out early.
The Half Track when supported is damn good. High damage output and suppression? To make it so it doesn't need set up time is retarded.
the Jagdpanzer is better than an SU 85.
Volks are about equivalent to Conscripts in terms of flexibility and late game usage.

He didn't even mention Walking Stuka or Obers. They also get one of the best mortar type weapons in the game.
18 Jul 2014, 21:16 PM
#32
avatar of MajorBloodnok
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 314

Posts: 10626 | Subs: 9

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Jul 2014, 19:44 PMCieZ
Dane is a decent player, a great caster but is one of the most blatantly biased players. At some points in alpha testing OKW was ungodly overpowered and he still wanted to buff them. He also thought that the 100 range elefant needed a buff, literally called it useless.


I do not think we have to go any further.:)

Anyways, as I was saying, I respect dane as a person, player, and caster but his balance opinions are far from objective, nor should most of them be taken seriously.


Dane has over-egged the pudding for far too long.

"Propaganda cast" means it what it says: Dane is promulgating the Ostheer/OKW despite historical facts to the contrary. Very occasionally -and not often enough - he drew back,and made a wimpish vid of the Britz in vCoH, which was sometimes amusing,bcs he has an intellect,when he does not choose to misuse it. But I would be surprised if there were many Dane vids in favour of US victory, outside his excellent Monday novice casts. And where they are, generally results in Dane heaping huge sh1t on the hapless German player,

You cannot rate him for everything, since he has a peculiar aversion to Snipers. Yet Snipers are,for many, an integral part of the Wehr Strat.

Dane has an agenda: you may not like it. I have grown to deplore it,bcs I see more and more where he wants to go. He may pretend it is a joke - but it is not.



18 Jul 2014, 21:34 PM
#33
avatar of VetLolcake

Posts: 342

Permanently Banned
Dane is 100% correct.
18 Jul 2014, 21:38 PM
#34
avatar of MajorBloodnok
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 314

Posts: 10626 | Subs: 9

Dane is 100% correct.


Thank you :)

You make my point for me, better than I ever could .
18 Jul 2014, 21:40 PM
#35
avatar of The_Courier

Posts: 665

I don't agree with his assessment of the OKW at all. It is definitely among the top factions in the game, certainly stronger overall than Ostheer or Soviets; the only thing that makes so they aren't overpowered is their relatively poor early game, that's actually not that poor, and of course the resource penalty. Their units are almost always among the best in the game, and a good player can use that advantage and run with it. Once US early game is nerfed, I wouldn't be surprised if OKW becomes the best faction, in all game modes, for good players.

I mean, people bitch about Volks, but that's only because they lose to Rifles a bit too much. A core infantry that's durable, has a good grenade, gets incredible vet bonuses and shrecks is not underpowered at all, and the faction already has so much elite ranged infantryalready, adding an LMG42 would be ridiculous overkill. It's more than enough that Panzerfusiliers, Falls, Jaegers and Obers are all capable of putting out massive DPS at mid or long range. The faction also gets very strong units like the Puma, Raketenwerfer and support gun, as well as powerful doctrinal units.

About teching: I'm actually in favor of normalizing all faction's teching costs with Ostheer's. I feel that they tech at the right pace, it's the other factions, mostly the WFA ones, that just tech too fast and can bring out shit like the US AAHT or the Puma way too early.
18 Jul 2014, 21:43 PM
#36
avatar of VetLolcake

Posts: 342

Permanently Banned
Dane is an Honest caster. Yet when i make the same points everyone attacks me. THANKS COH.ORG
18 Jul 2014, 21:45 PM
#37
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4899

I don't know if I'd call OKW strong or weak. It's a weird faction, they're easy to break, but if you fail to break them, they become unbreakable. In early-mid game, OKW rides a fine line between victory and failure. One mistake and it's over.

I feel like when I lose a Conscript squad, that's a mistake, but oh well. If I lose Volks, well shit they were pretty important. If I lose a T-70, that really sucks. But if I lose a Luchs or Puma? Fuck fuck fuck!
18 Jul 2014, 21:56 PM
#38
avatar of TychoCelchuuu
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 1620 | Subs: 2

Having heard about balance from ImperialDane I think we need to hear from DemocraticRepublicanYankee and SovietRussian. Unfortunately none of these people exist.
18 Jul 2014, 21:58 PM
#39
avatar of coh2player

Posts: 1571

^^

I see them as a strong infantry faction but with weaker armored assets (in the aggregate) like the USA. The ost and the soviets have better armor, inferior infantry.
18 Jul 2014, 22:11 PM
#40
avatar of VetLolcake

Posts: 342

Permanently Banned
The issues dane mentioned should have been addressed prior to WFA.

Relic should also have identified US terminator infantry blobs in beta and acted upon it. MG42 STAND NO CHANCE against these armadas that instantly melt them.

US AA truck is Trololol.

and as mentioned OH simply is crap and too expensive to tech up

Maxim is simply enough said. and ISU 152 and IS2 need to be addressed.

Tiger should be reverted back to wher eit was.
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