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ISU-152

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26 Apr 2014, 15:11 PM
#61
avatar of sluzbenik

Posts: 875

I posted a replay of 3 ISUs vs two Elefants. Lost one ISU. So much infantry death now, I really dislike the AI of tanks this patch. The ISU is bad, but actually everything wrecks infantry late...Why bother with a vetting system for infantry now, seriously...

26 Apr 2014, 15:48 PM
#62
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

Katitof, first of all your attitude is a little rich.

My personality is also quite rich hur hurr :)

There was a good period when conspam was just about unbeatable, and Shocks were basically invincible terminator squads. The March Deployment that Soviet players looooooove to complain about was specifically directed at the fact that the game mechanics rewarded blobbing and charging into entrenched positions (== Soviet mid and late game). Have we already forgotten?

There was also a good period when TA was batshit OP, instant vet3 spam, MGs were unflankable unless you attacked it from all directions, gren killed everything and anything, P4 had similar impact to IS-2, 4 minute FHT with tank durability and KV-8 firepower, starfe spam with opels on fuel points, pgren blobbing and so on and so forth. Have you forgotten?

But more importantly, how does that impact current balance in any way? Its not past anymore, it doesn't matter what we had 4 days ago and you say that things that happened months ago are some kind of excuse or justification.

You didn't played soviets in match deployment, did you? There was a lot of complaining, because it was just. Germans had all the advantages, better infantry, better tanks, everyone sane acknowledged that, devs and their statistics including. Both factions blobbed and neither can do so now, I don't really see what your point is.

Balance happens, things change, adapt.
Don't live in the past or you will always have something to complain about. Factions are pretty equal now with minor things to adjust, but neither is unbeatable in any stage of the game anymore.

Second, you still haven't gotten past the two wrongs make a right school of thought. Is there anybody here defending the Tiger Ace? I play both factions, I thought it was BS when it first rolled out... and your point is what, exactly?

You're going in circles here chasing your own tail.
I have no idea what point you're trying to make.
People complained about elephant since forever and it was buffed even harder.
Now ISU is on its level of impact and it suddenly is a problem?



Finally, the problem is not that you can't attack an ISU from the front with armor. The problem is that you can't attack an ISU from the front with armor OR infantry, and it can 1-shot a pak from beyond the pak's range. The Elefant does not have those characteristics, and the OPness of the initial TA is completely beside the point, for God's sake it's been nerfed for longer than it was OP.


So flank it? Elephant also can't be attacked frontally, because infantry will do nothing to it and vehicles will blow up.

Stop thinking that you can just a-move head on against soviet heavies, these is past, keep up with the present.
Scout, flank, ambush.

If that still doesn't give you the picture of what you need to do, then go build an elephant and see what soviets do in response, then do exactly the same against ISU.
26 Apr 2014, 15:57 PM
#63
avatar of MoerserKarL
Donator 22

Posts: 1108

hes getting nerft next patch
26 Apr 2014, 16:09 PM
#64
avatar of geist

Posts: 79

Thing is: You can ignore Elephant because zero AI potential. Try ignoring an ISU.
26 Apr 2014, 16:09 PM
#65
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2691 | Subs: 1

I would love it if relic gave it some time. This is the first patch where German armor can't just lolblitz up to Soviet armor and kill it. I think the Germans just need some time to adapt to facing ISU152s.

Try Howitzers, elephants, overwhelming armored assaults, or smaller clever flanking assaults.

You know, the thing soviets have been using to counter Elephants for the last year.

For team games: Elephant + tiger > everything.
26 Apr 2014, 16:10 PM
#66
avatar of Ginnungagap

Posts: 324 | Subs: 2

I will be talking mainly about 2v2, because the Elefant and ISU152 are not really viable for 1v1. (The last time i used or saw an elefant somewhat competitive in 1v1 was in the good old SU85 days)

The ISU152. The main concept of instagibbing squads from 100 range is very bad. It removed the option of retreat and makes the survival of squads completely RNG dependent. The only units that matter at that point are tanks or artillery. Infantry and support weapons become obsolete.

There are many ways to address this problem, but i would like to see the AI decreased first. Even though it's a big howitzer and from a realistic standpoint it feels right to destroy everything, the gameplay suffers. Similar to sniper spam, you are forced to get the hardcounter / Elefant to fight it efficiently.

And yes, i would say flanking an ISU152 (or Elefant) with tanks is not a reliable option against competent players.
26 Apr 2014, 16:15 PM
#67
avatar of geist

Posts: 79

This. It destroys the match, especially if there is more than 1 god unit. (I would't mind if ISU and Elephant were removed)
26 Apr 2014, 16:16 PM
#68
avatar of DarthBong420

Posts: 381

@ Katitof you say don't live in the past with old patches, but, in the same reply talk about the elephant and tiger ace being op in previous patches. Also complaining about the elephant is pointless without admitting it is the same issue as Germans players have with the ISU. Double standards much?
26 Apr 2014, 16:19 PM
#69
avatar of the_onion_man
Patrion 14

Posts: 115

Aerohank, in the past I have made the point again and again that the T34 was not worth it for the cost, and hadn't been for some time. I am very happy to see it buffed.

Howitzers are basically unviable 1v1. "Overwhelming armored assaults" and "small clever flanking" will fail if the ISU has any support and/or if the battle takes place on maps like Minsk or Stalingrad. That leaves the Elefant... remind me why it's OK for Soviet players to insist that it's acceptable to require a doctrinal counter, especially after all the griping about having to use a doctrinal counter?
26 Apr 2014, 16:22 PM
#70
avatar of DarthBong420

Posts: 381


Howitzers are basically unviable 1v1. "Overwhelming armored assaults" and "small clever flanking" will fail if the ISU has any support and/or if the battle takes place on maps like Minsk or Stalingrad. That leaves the Elefant... remind me why it's OK for Soviet players to insist that it's acceptable to require a doctrinal counter, especially after all the griping about having to use a doctrinal counter?



+1

26 Apr 2014, 16:57 PM
#71
avatar of JohanSchwarz

Posts: 409

...remind me why it's OK for Soviet players to insist that it's acceptable to require a doctrinal counter, especially after all the griping about having to use a doctrinal counter?


Because the vast majority of the vocal community is built upon factional fanboy-ism and political hatred rather than the actual game.
26 Apr 2014, 16:58 PM
#72
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

You' re complaing to be bound to doctrine if soviets bring ISU?
I say you have nothing to complain. You have great late-game AI and AT units free from doctrine (Brrumbar, Panther, PGrens).
What soviets have? Su85. Sounds like a joke when compare to Panthers, PGrens nad Brrumbar. We need to chose commander which allows us to bring some AI/AT forces. Germans can pick up whatever doctrine they want becasue there be panther and brrumbar always.
Soviet are bind to doctrine. We have to pick up IS2, KV-2 or T34-85 but still they wont handle Panthers/Tigers + PGrens. And there comes ISU which solves most problems with lack of AI or AT power.
In late game germans can easily win by combining Panthers/Tiger and PGrens (sometime even panthers spam is enough) while soviets need to make army of a various units. Now when ISU is buffed we also can make 2-3 units army. Deal with that.
___________
We even have to chose commander to get AT inf!!
26 Apr 2014, 17:00 PM
#73
avatar of akosi

Posts: 1734

Permanently Banned

from skilled Soviet players (StC).





26 Apr 2014, 17:06 PM
#74
avatar of Kronosaur0s

Posts: 1688

^Lol
26 Apr 2014, 17:46 PM
#75
avatar of the_onion_man
Patrion 14

Posts: 115

Aerohank you are confusing army design with balance problems.
26 Apr 2014, 17:55 PM
#76
avatar of Burts

Posts: 1702

Flank it lollollloololoolollololo, just like soviets have to flank the elephant.

But seriously, the ISU-152 is fine. Just needs a slight anti infantry nerf. It should be as effective againts inf as the old IS-2. The occasionall squad wipe or two, but only when axis infatry are bunched up.
26 Apr 2014, 17:57 PM
#77
avatar of tokarev

Posts: 307

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Apr 2014, 10:05 AMAbdul


lol u are enjoying this


I just destroyed an elephant with my vet 2 isu and mark vehicle and button


So you are saying that you killed an unsupported elephant with ISU152 and a blob of DP-28 guards?

It sounds like uneven fight.
Neo
26 Apr 2014, 18:05 PM
#78
avatar of Neo

Posts: 471

I will be talking mainly about 2v2, because the Elefant and ISU152 are not really viable for 1v1. (The last time i used or saw an elefant somewhat competitive in 1v1 was in the good old SU85 days)

The ISU152. The main concept of instagibbing squads from 100 range is very bad. It removed the option of retreat and makes the survival of squads completely RNG dependent. The only units that matter at that point are tanks or artillery. Infantry and support weapons become obsolete.

There are many ways to address this problem, but i would like to see the AI decreased first. Even though it's a big howitzer and from a realistic standpoint it feels right to destroy everything, the gameplay suffers. Similar to sniper spam, you are forced to get the hardcounter / Elefant to fight it efficiently.

And yes, i would say flanking an ISU152 (or Elefant) with tanks is not a reliable option against competent players.


This. AI performance needs to be mediocre at best on the ISU. Instagibbing from 100 range does not belong in this game.

26 Apr 2014, 18:10 PM
#79
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

@ Katitof you say don't live in the past with old patches, but, in the same reply talk about the elephant and tiger ace being op in previous patches. Also complaining about the elephant is pointless without admitting it is the same issue as Germans players have with the ISU. Double standards much?


If you'd manage to get to the end of that line you'd noticed that I said that it does not matter at all what used to be, because only present matters.
26 Apr 2014, 18:11 PM
#80
avatar of Sully

Posts: 390 | Subs: 2

Reasonable players seem to be in agreement here.

It's pretty simple. Great anti-tank, great anti-infantry, and extreme range. Pick two.
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