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PPSH x3 Aftermath Update

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27 Feb 2014, 02:25 AM
#141
avatar of FestiveLongJohns
Patrion 15

Posts: 1157 | Subs: 2

So, what your saying is, you need a 60 munition upgrade and an MG to beat a 30 munition upgrade.


Flawed logic. The PPSH is only available in a handful of doctrines and its some of its power needs to be accounted for because of this. The LMG is available to any German player. I don't think its fair to compare to the two 1:1
27 Feb 2014, 02:29 AM
#142
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2779



Flawed logic. The PPSH is only available in a handful of doctrines and its some of its power needs to be accounted for because of this. The LMG is available to any German player. I don't think its fair to compare to the two 1:1


Osttruppen is only available in one doctrine, does it make sense buffing them into Knight Cross level? <444>_<444>
27 Feb 2014, 05:58 AM
#143
avatar of FestiveLongJohns
Patrion 15

Posts: 1157 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Feb 2014, 02:29 AMPorygon


Osttruppen is only available in one doctrine, does it make sense buffing them into Knight Cross level? <444>_<444>


No, but ostruppen fulfill a role within the context of the commander they are in. Comparing ostruppen to conscripts, for example, isn't really worthwhile, because one is a baseline unit and the other fills a very niche role in a single commander.

The PPSH exists within the context of only a few commanders, none of which have any late game call in tanks. Its not fair to compare it to something like the LMG42, which is available regardless of commander. The PPSH offers a strong mid game presence for conscripts that helps them scale into late game, at the cost of heavy call-ins. IMO unique commander abilities deserve to have some added strength because they occupy a slot on your commander load out, which should feel significant and game changing. We're not talking about baseline upgrades, we're talking about game defining abilities only available via commander choice, and for that reason I don't feel like its a valid comparison.
27 Feb 2014, 07:09 AM
#144
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2779



No, but ostruppen fulfill a role within the context of the commander they are in. Comparing ostruppen to conscripts, for example, isn't really worthwhile, because one is a baseline unit and the other fills a very niche role in a single commander.

The PPSH exists within the context of only a few commanders, none of which have any late game call in tanks. Its not fair to compare it to something like the LMG42, which is available regardless of commander. The PPSH offers a strong mid game presence for conscripts that helps them scale into late game, at the cost of heavy call-ins. IMO unique commander abilities deserve to have some added strength because they occupy a slot on your commander load out, which should feel significant and game changing. We're not talking about baseline upgrades, we're talking about game defining abilities only available via commander choice, and for that reason I don't feel like its a valid comparison.


Your logic cannot be apply in the new doctrine. It is arguable the best doctrine of Soviet.
27 Feb 2014, 07:12 AM
#145
avatar of buckers

Posts: 230

ppsh's should take up 1/2 a weapon slot, and have a chance of being dropped when the squad loses a member, then re bought for 10 munis a peice.
27 Feb 2014, 08:10 AM
#146
avatar of FestiveLongJohns
Patrion 15

Posts: 1157 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Feb 2014, 07:09 AMPorygon


Your logic cannot be apply in the new doctrine. It is arguable the best doctrine of Soviet.


Why doesn't it apply? The new doctrine doesn't include Guards or Shocks. That alone is a pretty hefty sacrifice. On top of that, the only call in vehicle is a single T-34-85. I don't see where your coming from, please elaborate.
27 Feb 2014, 09:21 AM
#147
avatar of akula

Posts: 589

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Feb 2014, 07:12 AMbuckers
ppsh's should take up 1/2 a weapon slot, and have a chance of being dropped when the squad loses a member, then re bought for 10 munis a peice.


interesting idea but wouldn't grens be OP with LMG+3 PPSH
27 Feb 2014, 09:22 AM
#148
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Feb 2014, 07:12 AMbuckers
ppsh's should take up 1/2 a weapon slot, and have a chance of being dropped when the squad loses a member, then re bought for 10 munis a peice.

I don't know what 1/2 a slot is, but doctrinal upgrades don't drop just like the g43.
27 Feb 2014, 11:16 AM
#149
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928


I don't know what 1/2 a slot is, but doctrinal upgrades don't drop just like the g43.


Wrong, Guards drop their DP's and PTRS Rifles. One's an upgrade, both are doctrinal.

Personally I like the idea that PPSh can be dropped. Not only because it makes you need to be a bit more careful and pay more attention, but from a historical standpoint the Germans loved to capture and use the PPSh, especially due to their shortage of SMG's against a very SMG heavy Army, the extra fire-power was certainly welcome.

The only problem is I don't know if there is a dropped model for the PPSh, or voice lines, so those would need to be made.
27 Feb 2014, 11:22 AM
#150
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2779



Why doesn't it apply? The new doctrine doesn't include Guards or Shocks. That alone is a pretty hefty sacrifice. On top of that, the only call in vehicle is a single T-34-85. I don't see where your coming from, please elaborate.


Don't ever think having

- best cons upgrade
- Maphack
- best all around tank callin

Is a sacrifice.

If you can't play without those gimmick elite inf, really please l2p.
27 Feb 2014, 11:37 AM
#151
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

That's funny considering germans have 2 of those options from the get-go without needing a doctrine (gren LMG42, P4). On top of that, they have stock Prgens which fill the roles of shocks/guards depending on upgrade.

The soviet stock army isn't as solid as the german stock army. Both in terms of the actual units and in terms if teching costs. When choosing a doctrine as soviets, you are always sacrificing something.



27 Feb 2014, 11:49 AM
#152
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17896 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Feb 2014, 11:22 AMPorygon


Don't ever think having

- best cons upgrade
- Maphack
- best all around tank callin

Is a sacrifice.

If you can't play without those gimmick elite inf, realty please l2p.

And what do you give up for it?
-off map strikes(inc arty, bombings)
-mark vehicle which is one of the most useful abilities in other just as good doctrine
-heavy tanks
-on map arty
-elite infantry

Also can't forget that best all around tank call-in(which is as strong as P4) comes as late as heavy doctrinal armor and german T4 armor, making it average at best, but still hands down better choice then pathetic tier units.
27 Feb 2014, 13:46 PM
#153
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561



Wrong, Guards drop their DP's and PTRS Rifles. One's an upgrade, both are doctrinal.

Personally I like the idea that PPSh can be dropped. Not only because it makes you need to be a bit more careful and pay more attention, but from a historical standpoint the Germans loved to capture and use the PPSh, especially due to their shortage of SMG's against a very SMG heavy Army, the extra fire-power was certainly welcome.

The only problem is I don't know if there is a dropped model for the PPSh, or voice lines, so those would need to be made.

That's actually a bit different. Guards are a call-in infantry, so while they are doctrinal their upgrades are not. In fact they are odd in that their stock weapons (the ptrs rifles) are droppable which is probably an effect of them being changed in development. It seems like they were meant to be upgradable like in the campaign.

As for the PPSHs dropping, it would be greatly unfair to do this as long as the G43s don't. As well as hard to do since they use the same ones as the shocks.
27 Feb 2014, 14:25 PM
#154
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2779

I did study economy before but I still think that opportunity cost theory is a bullshit.

Yeah you make choice, you give up something, but don't forget your choice makes you gain another thing.
Assume all choice give you same quantity of gains, then why need to think about what you have forgone. The net gain is the same whatever your choice. It's all about the half glass of water theory. Think positive.

You didn't choose Guards magic gun, then get some freaking mines.
You didn't choose Shocks, then get two or three PPSH cons and do the same job.
27 Feb 2014, 17:29 PM
#155
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Feb 2014, 07:12 AMbuckers
ppsh's should take up 1/2 a weapon slot, and have a chance of being dropped when the squad loses a member, then re bought for 10 munis a peice.


Well, then let the G-43 can also be dropped. Always wanted for their shock troops 2-3 SVT-40/G-43
27 Feb 2014, 17:40 PM
#156
avatar of Cardboard Tank

Posts: 978

+ 1 for Ppsh having a chance of being dropped.
27 Feb 2014, 19:21 PM
#157
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

+1 for G43 rifles having a chance of being dropped.
27 Feb 2014, 20:21 PM
#158
avatar of FestiveLongJohns
Patrion 15

Posts: 1157 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Feb 2014, 11:22 AMPorygon


Don't ever think having

- best cons upgrade
- Maphack
- best all around tank callin

Is a sacrifice.

If you can't play without those gimmick elite inf, really please l2p.


How are shocks and guards gimmicky? They are a core part of the Soviet army... You keep making points as if all of these units and abilities are in a vacuum. And I'm not saying that I can't play w/o elite inf, in fact the Warfare doctrine is one of my favorites for obvious reasons. The L2P argument doesn't really help make your point.
27 Feb 2014, 20:23 PM
#159
avatar of Cardboard Tank

Posts: 978

Ppsh definitely, G43 - I´m not sure about that. So far G43s haven´t caused any balance troubles. The Ppsh on the other hand has. Also the Ppsh among Germans was way more common than the G43 among Russians.
27 Feb 2014, 20:32 PM
#160
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17896 | Subs: 8

Ppsh definitely, G43 - I´m not sure about that. So far G43s haven´t caused any balance troubles. The Ppsh on the other hand has. Also the Ppsh among Germans was way more common than the G43 among Russians.


You either are consistent or not.

No double standards.
Either you agree to both dropping, or none.

And the only balance issue ppsh caused is to shake out german players from the delusion that no matter what, conscripts aren't a threat.

PPSh is still ONLY close range upgrade and still have less dps then LMG.

We had for almost half year single player ppsh that never was an issue and was MUCH STRONGER then current tripple one, that alone gives ppsh QQ absolutely 0 rational base.
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