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The elephant(s) in the room

17 Feb 2014, 19:48 PM
#61
avatar of iTzDusty

Posts: 836 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Feb 2014, 19:36 PMwooof


how about the reward units in ToV? thats extra options you had to pay for. guess thats p2w too.


Do you even remember how broken the hellcat and kangaroo carrier were? You can't keep being condescending to the OP if you start pulling things out of your ass.
17 Feb 2014, 20:06 PM
#62
avatar of Lichtbringer

Posts: 476

@Rogers: You think they stoped with DLC Commanders? :D (I don't think so).

There were questions about solutions:
For a moment lets look at LoL.
-You pay NOTHING for the standard game.
-You can buy everything remotly relevant to gameplay for ingame currency.
-You can buy Skins only for real money, that have no impact on the game.


What do you think, on which game did I spend more money? It's LoL. And I didnot bought any champions, only Skins. Seems to work pretty good.

When I buy a skin in LoL I think: This is a great game, with a fair buisness model, I want to help the devs, and I feel absolutly not bad buying something useless for real money.

When I think about buying something in CoH2: Everything except Commanders is out of question, firstly because its too pricey for what it gives, secondly "you greedy bastards get not a cent more from me, then what I have to pay for your Commander ripoff". Then I think about buying Commanders. When they are not on sale its totally out of Question. For 50% off I will maybe buy 1 or 2 and still feel bad about it.

So we see: The solution is a fair buisness model, where people want to spend money on useless things, instead of a "perceived" unfair buisnessmodel in which people who really like the game will feel forced to buy something and feel bad about it.

Just another example: I actually bought Dow2 Retribution at the Wintersale, AND I bought a Skinpack in addition. And it feels great. (Ok, it was pretty cheap, but its pretty old also, not even supported anymore and and and.)


If we have to keep Commanders (which we have, because they are alreay here) fair offers should be the solution. They just need to make a "multiplayer" pack, which includes everything relevant to multiplayer that will be released in the fututre, and was released already. Make it 15€, and I see many people spending way more money on this, then what you would have otherwise gotten from them. And they are happy. Or ATLEAST bundle up the Old Commanders.
17 Feb 2014, 20:16 PM
#63
avatar of Mad_Hatter

Posts: 134

@Rogers: You think they stoped with DLC Commanders? :D (I don't think so).

There were questions about solutions:
For a moment lets look at LoL.
-You pay NOTHING for the standard game.
-You can buy everything remotly relevant to gameplay for ingame currency.
-You can buy Skins only for real money, that have no impact on the game.


What do you think, on which game did I spend more money? It's LoL. And I didnot bought any champions, only Skins. Seems to work pretty good.

When I buy a skin in LoL I think: This is a great game, with a fair buisness model, I want to help the devs, and I feel absolutly not bad buying something useless for real money.

When I think about buying something in CoH2: Everything except Commanders is out of question, firstly because its too pricey for what it gives, secondly "you greedy bastards get not a cent more from me, then what I have to pay for your Commander ripoff". Then I think about buying Commanders. When they are not on sale its totally out of Question. For 50% off I will maybe buy 1 or 2 and still feel bad about it.

So we see: The solution is a fair buisness model, where people want to spend money on useless things, instead of a "perceived" unfair buisnessmodel in which people who really like the game will feel forced to buy something and feel bad about it.

Just another example: I actually bought Dow2 Retribution at the Wintersale, AND I bought a Skinpack in addition. And it feels great. (Ok, it was pretty cheap, but its pretty old also, not even supported anymore and and and.)


If we have to keep Commanders (which we have, because they are alreay here) fair offers should be the solution. They just need to make a "multiplayer" pack, which includes everything relevant to multiplayer that will be released in the fututre, and was released already. Make it 15€, and I see many people spending way more money on this, then what you would have otherwise gotten from them. And they are happy. Or ATLEAST bundle up the Old Commanders.


I think partially why people (me included) are butt hurt over the dlc commanders is that they made us buy the game and on top of that expect us to pay more for the rest of the content that we didn't get with the initial purchase. If you're going to make every new commander cost money why not just make the game free? Instead of being greedy bitches and trying to get more money from the small player base that your shitstorm of a business model managed to not push away.

I personally refuse to buy any of the new commanders. And if no one else did either they might realize that their system is flawed. But as long as poor sobs are still putting money into elite troop doctrine because its busted and gives them a better chance to win (cause they're too bad to win with default commanders) relic will continue doing what its doing
17 Feb 2014, 20:21 PM
#64
avatar of TZer0

Posts: 180

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Feb 2014, 19:36 PMwooof


how about the reward units in ToV? thats extra options you had to pay for. guess thats p2w too.


Correct.
17 Feb 2014, 20:33 PM
#65
avatar of wooof

Posts: 950 | Subs: 1

so then you think devs should never add anything new to games unless its free just because you dont want to buy it? its not fair that some people can have things you cant just because you dont want to pay for them? does this sound a little entitled and self centered to anyone else? as nice as your idealistic little dream sounds, we all know that will never happen. thats like saying its not fair for anyone to have a better car than you just because you dont want to buy anything more expensive than a civic.

im not even talking about balance here, because you guys have clearly said even if things are balanced its p2w. even "50% wins" is p2w in your eyes, which even an average player without dlc should be able to achieve. hell, even pre ordering is p2w by your definition because you got premium commanders for free that other people no longer get. sorry, but you guys are never going to be happy with those kinds of standards.
17 Feb 2014, 20:40 PM
#66
avatar of TZer0

Posts: 180

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Feb 2014, 20:33 PMwooof
so then you think devs should never add anything new to games unless its free just because you dont want to buy it? its not fair that some people can have things you cant just because you dont want to pay for them? does this sound a little entitled and self centered to anyone else? as nice as your idealistic little dream sounds, we all know that will never happen. thats like saying its not fair for anyone to have a better car than you just because you dont want to buy anything more expensive than a civic.

im not even talking about balance here, because you guys have clearly said even if things are balanced its p2w. even "50% wins" is p2w in your eyes, which even an average player without dlc should be able to achieve. hell, even pre ordering is p2w by your definition because you got premium commanders for free that other people no longer get. sorry, but you guys are never going to be happy with those kinds of standards.


I'd be more than happy to pay for fairly priced skins (a texture is NOT worth 2€), faceplates (a faceplate is NOT worth 2€) and missions (these are okay I think).

Just not commander-DLCs. Stay away from pay-for items giving players variation or an edge in multi-player.

And yes, I can be happy with such standards. It is the only way I can be happy. I can fire up Command & Conquer: Generals: Zero Hour, Planetary Annihilation, Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance (forever) and whatever else. Just not Company of Heroes 2 as it stands now and I want to see that changed.
Neo
17 Feb 2014, 20:45 PM
#67
avatar of Neo

Posts: 471

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Feb 2014, 20:33 PMwooof

even "50% wins" is p2w in your eyes, which even an average player without dlc should be able to achieve.


Wooof, you seem like an intelligent guy. I bet you're just pretending not to understand that when people say "P2W" they mean "pay to have an advantage over the enemy".

I played vs. Tiger Ace many times and won. It's still OP as fuck. If I could play a clone of myself and one of me was playing with TA in its current form and the other was playing Soviet, the German clone would win 99%.

We don't play clones though and someone with skill can still beat someone with less skill who is using P2HAA (pay to have an advantage (tm)). That doesn't change the fact that it's not balanced.

Stop pretending to be stupid please.
17 Feb 2014, 20:50 PM
#68
avatar of PingPing

Posts: 329

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Feb 2014, 20:33 PMwooof
so then you think devs should never add anything new to games unless its free just because you dont want to buy it? its not fair that some people can have things you cant just because you dont want to pay for them? does this sound a little entitled and self centered to anyone else? as nice as your idealistic little dream sounds, we all know that will never happen. thats like saying its not fair for anyone to have a better car than you just because you dont want to buy anything more expensive than a civic.

im not even talking about balance here, because you guys have clearly said even if things are balanced its p2w. even "50% wins" is p2w in your eyes, which even an average player without dlc should be able to achieve. hell, even pre ordering is p2w by your definition because you got premium commanders for free that other people no longer get. sorry, but you guys are never going to be happy with those kinds of standards.


1 - The developers received anywhere from $59-$99 just for the initial "right" to then purchase DLC - of which on DAY 1 there was an abundance of DLC available (not as in the more traditional form of DLC which is created at a later date to extend the life of the game rather than how this looked - that the game itself was just a platform to sell you more stuff).

2 - The DLC being sold directly impacts players - and you as a player have no CHOICE - be it choices made available by paying more for options that are otherwise not available to you in any way shape or form beside PAYING for them.

3 - Continuing from 2 - If you chose NOT to partake in the DLC - you have no CHOICE in the random opponents in match making who DO have that DLC - ie. there's no way to screen your opponents or check a box saying "No Elite Troops" etc - where as in vCoh if you didn't want to play a DLC "commander" - you could see if there was a Brit/PE in the game and elect to play or not. COH2 - no such choice.

4 - These commanders don't bring any extended play to the game - they are typically rehashed allotments of skills that may be more potent than other commanders - or they give you an edge that you can't get as it combines cherry picked abilities from other free commanders.

5 - True value adding DLC is to be found in extending the life of the GAME. More missions etc - this takes work and effort and should be encouraged as it GIVES you, the player, MORE from the game you purchased.

If you can't understand why players feel this is pay 2 win - that's because you elect not to.

If they had simply maintained the "bling" DLC and the extended mission pack DLCs - I don't think there'd be any claim of P2W.
17 Feb 2014, 20:54 PM
#69
avatar of Greeb

Posts: 971



So, with that logic, every single add-on for CoH was pay to win? From what I remember you could play against Brits, even so you had never bought the add-on.


Yes, ToV could be considered like that.

But ToV was released three years after vCoH and was only ONE big expansion. It's understandable that after three years you should invest a little money to actualize the game or extend its lifetime .
17 Feb 2014, 23:21 PM
#70
avatar of TZer0

Posts: 180

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Feb 2014, 20:54 PMGreeb


Yes, ToV could be considered like that.

But ToV was released three years after vCoH and was only ONE big expansion. It's understandable that after three years you should invest a little money to actualize the game or extend its lifetime .


Besides, no one said Company of Heroes 1 wouldn't be pay to win. Unlike Company of Heroes 2.
17 Feb 2014, 23:43 PM
#71
avatar of Greeb

Posts: 971

I wouldn't mind if Relic packed all commanders released till date plus some extra like a german campaign and they'd sold them in summer.
The game would be at least one year old and probably would need some new content to attract new and old players.
It would be P2W equally, but at least it would be a bit more justified.

But selling them one by one since release seems a terrible business policy from the customer's point of view, as you can't always have the satisfaction of having a full game, and also, they're too overpriced.

In short, expansions once a year with an affordable price YES. Overpriced avalanche of single DLCs NO.
18 Feb 2014, 00:22 AM
#72
avatar of cr4wler

Posts: 1164

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Feb 2014, 19:36 PMwooof

how about the reward units in ToV? thats extra options you had to pay for. guess thats p2w too.


i don't think you've ever played vCoH or you wouldn't have to ask that question :-D

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Feb 2014, 20:33 PMwooof

thats like saying its not fair for anyone to have a better car than you just because you dont want to buy anything more expensive than a civic.


no, it's like saying that in a bicycle race nobody else is allowed to use a formula 1 car, just because he has the money for one. thats why there are always rules for competitions/sports. or salary caps.
18 Feb 2014, 00:49 AM
#73
avatar of BabaRoga

Posts: 829

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Feb 2014, 13:46 PMKatitof

That is bad balancing.
As I've said, it gets fixed.

If your conspiracy theory would be true, then all DLC commanders would be OP and then nerfed.

They are not. Only 2 were most evident cases and both are getting more hefty nerfs soon to get them in line, because that is the ultimate point-having all commanders in line with each other, so they offer more options, not better ones.

The only cases of OP commanders come from bad or ignored feedback on beta forums I assume, since I don't believe beta players didn't noticed how much bs TA was.

Also, even if the new commanders will be perfectly balanced on day 1 since their release, they will still 'break balance' for you, because they might bring in something you havent faced before and you won't know how to deal with it at first, but that doesn't mean the commander is OP, it just means meta got expanded and you need to adjust.
That is of course a perfect situation, since there will most likely always be some balance concerns with new commanders, some will be op, some will be up, some will be fine, give it time and all will be just as strong.


It is not balancing issue if guys on balancing server continuously point to the fact that commander/unit is OP as hell but it gets released anyway. In one case I am aware of, unit even got buffed before being released for sale.

You even had Dev say that final decision is not in their hands entirely and that they have to co-ordinate with marketing department etc.

Finally, please stop assuming that people and myself complain about DLC and OP units just because we are noobs.
There are many much better players than yourself that call these units OP and P2W.

If you do not see correlation between nerfs to DLC units and 'people learning to deal with them' then there is nothing else I can say really.

I am very well aware that people come up with strategies to deal with units but you conveniently keep ignoring the fact that players find the ways to abuse unit more effectively at the same time.

Both strategies evolve simultaneously, and OP unit will stay OP unit.

I learned to deal vs Kangaroo carrier, but my entire gameplan consisted of trying to survive Roo spam.
I call that OP, you can call it whatever you wish
18 Feb 2014, 22:48 PM
#74
avatar of TZer0

Posts: 180

The new commanders being free is a step in the right direction (but one of them has some seemingly broken stuff).

I wonder if they'll ever take it all the way and make the rest of the commanders free...
18 Feb 2014, 22:52 PM
#75
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17909 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Feb 2014, 22:48 PMTZer0
The new commanders being free is a step in the right direction (but one of them has some seemingly broken stuff).

I wonder if they'll ever take it all the way and make the rest of the commanders free...


Apparently you are greatly uninformed.

The commanders are free for 5 days only because CoH2 won event.
18 Feb 2014, 22:58 PM
#76
avatar of Greeb

Posts: 971

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Feb 2014, 22:52 PMKatitof


Apparently you are greatly uninformed.

The commanders are free for 5 days only because CoH2 won event.


You're mistaken. The commanders are yours forever, but you have only 5 days to download them.
Once downloaded you can always use them.

Noun confirmed that in a couple of threads.
18 Feb 2014, 23:06 PM
#77
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17909 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Feb 2014, 22:58 PMGreeb


You're mistaken. The commanders are yours forever, but you have only 5 days to download them.
Once downloaded you can always use them.

Noun confirmed that in a couple of threads.

Thats what I meant. Could use better wording(its internet after all, if it can be misunderstood, it will be).
18 Feb 2014, 23:16 PM
#78
avatar of TZer0

Posts: 180

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Feb 2014, 22:58 PMGreeb


You're mistaken. The commanders are yours forever, but you have only 5 days to download them.
Once downloaded you can always use them.

Noun confirmed that in a couple of threads.

I consider this almost the only thing worse than paid commander DLCs. I mean, it could've been paid and timed!

Edit: I've been doubly misinformed, it seems that it returns to the standard-grade badness of paid DLC after this period.
19 Feb 2014, 01:17 AM
#79
avatar of van Voort
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3552 | Subs: 2

Dem

Ferdinands can garisson in buildings now?


19 Feb 2014, 01:33 AM
#80
avatar of WiFiDi
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3293

I'm gonna let people interpret this as they will, more fun that way! :)
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