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14 Feb 2014, 19:29 PM
#301
avatar of WilliG

Posts: 157

Why is the goal to be like SC2 or LoL. I though the goal was to create a community around the game that wants to organize new and interesting events, bring more people that play and enjoy the game into the community to participate in some of the events.

@ Wifi - I Lied.
14 Feb 2014, 19:33 PM
#302
avatar of Inverse
Coder Red Badge

Posts: 1673 | Subs: 5

The goal was never to be like SC2. If Relic came out and said they were going to make CoH2 as it is today, nobody would be frustrated because we would've known what to expect. The frustration stems from being led to believe that the competitive scene was something Relic was focused on, when ultimately it doesn't seem that it was.

Honestly, I'm over it by now. I'll still contribute my opinion because I still have hope that an expansion can make things better, kind of like a reverse Opposing Fronts situation. But it annoys me to hear people ripping on those who are doing nothing but venting their frustration at the way this whole situation was handled, and pointing fingers at the community when the community has nothing to do with it at all.
14 Feb 2014, 19:37 PM
#303
avatar of PingPing

Posts: 329

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2014, 19:33 PMInverse
The goal was never to be like SC2. If Relic came out and said they were going to make CoH2 as it is today, nobody would be frustrated because we would've known what to expect. The frustration stems from being led to believe that the competitive scene was something Relic was focused on, when ultimately it doesn't seem that it was.


This - AND the fact that COH1 is in the unplayable state it's in - basically removing the "well if you don't like COH2 then don't play it" - as simply there's no alternative given COH has been crippled.

Essentially the "existing" (pre-COH2) community is just left feeling pretty lousy about this whole experience - hence the negativity.

COH2 really should have just had a name change - had nothing to do with COH1 and then it'd be judged on its own merit and credits - and "old school" COH1'ers wouldn't be as critical as they are about COH "2".
14 Feb 2014, 19:55 PM
#304
avatar of WilliG

Posts: 157

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2014, 19:33 PMInverse
The goal was never to be like SC2. If Relic came out and said they were going to make CoH2 as it is today, nobody would be frustrated because we would've known what to expect. The frustration stems from being led to believe that the competitive scene was something Relic was focused on, when ultimately it doesn't seem that it was.

Honestly, I'm over it by now. I'll still contribute my opinion because I still have hope that an expansion can make things better, kind of like a reverse Opposing Fronts situation. But it annoys me to hear people ripping on those who are doing nothing but venting their frustration at the way this whole situation was handled, and pointing fingers at the community when the community has nothing to do with it at all.


I'm sorry that you feel slighted by Relic. I know people in the mod community that feel the same way.

The fact of the matter is they are (unfortunate as that may be) a development studio affiliated with a publisher with a goal to turn a profit to invest in more patches and releases while also having profit left over. They have to invest in the areas where they are going to see the most returns. It looks to me that they do care about the competitive scene as they sponsor SNF and are asking to community to come together and present ideas on how they could improve this area.

I don't know what your relation with Relic is/was but unfortunately they're are not an omnipotent studio that can cater to everyone at once.

You're very clear in what you dislike about the game and are very articulate as to your reasoning, but beyond voicing those opinions you can either support the game and the community or continue to state how you feel like you've been slighted, and repeat the same problems you have with the game over and over.
14 Feb 2014, 19:58 PM
#305
avatar of Thrill
Donator 11

Posts: 300

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2014, 19:55 PMWilliG

You're very clear in what you dislike about the game and are very articulate as to your reasoning, but beyond voicing those opinions you can either support the game and the community or continue to state how you feel like you've been slighted, and repeat the same problems you have with the game over and over.


+1000

well put
14 Feb 2014, 20:14 PM
#306
avatar of Razh

Posts: 166

Permanently Banned
Can we have a sub forum for people that play the game?
Seb
14 Feb 2014, 20:22 PM
#307
avatar of Seb
Admin Black Badge

Posts: 3709 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2014, 20:14 PMRazh
Can we have a sub forum for people that play the game?

Don't give me ideas! It would be pretty funny to imagine this forum with a user profile option to turn on "I play the game" and it would show by default only messages from other people playing the game.
14 Feb 2014, 20:23 PM
#308
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4

Okay Inverse, so we both agree that you need a community that wants to play a game competitive - well we have that for CoH 2. Sure it isn't enormous but plenty of people have signed up for tournaments and even more have watched them. There have been tournaments almost non-stop since the game was released, and even before then. (IpKai's beta tournament, WiFi's Gamekeys, Semos, Langres, SNF 5, A_E's current tournament, ESL, WiFi has another tournament in the mix... etc etc).

Seems pretty clear to me that at least a portion of this community wants competitive play and cares about it.

Furthermore we have Relic's support in trying to grow said community. Developer support + community that wants competitive play = winning? I'd certainly think so. I really don't see the problem here. Just because you, and a handful of vCoH players, don't want to play COH 2 competitively doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of us out there that enjoy playing/watching the game in the competitive sense.

Even more than that, I'd think that if you truly cared about COH 2 and its future that you'd put effort forth in trying to improve the game instead of just beating the same dead horse on the forums all the time. Relic is working extremely closely with the community to improve the game for everyone (casual players and competitive players alike).

Finally, the whole argument that vCoH was this immensely, deep game that is super fun to play because wow. Such deep. Much tactics. while COH 2 is boring because it is shallow just doesn't really add up. As I've said before CoH 2 has tons of mechanics that increase the tactical and strategic depth of the game, and some that hinder it. But even Guderian admitted that for years 90% of vCoH games were rifle spam with BARS vs terror. Man... must have been just the most refreshing and diverse metagame ever to exist. =/

Quick edit: I'm not trying to say vCOH wasn't a deep game, only that the level of depth is often exaggerated.
14 Feb 2014, 20:31 PM
#309
avatar of WilliG

Posts: 157

+1 for doge

oh and I agree with your post for the most part.
14 Feb 2014, 20:44 PM
#310
avatar of Kolaris

Posts: 308 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2014, 20:23 PMCieZ
Even more than that, I'd think that if you truly cared about COH 2 and its future that you'd put effort forth in trying to improve the game instead of just beating the same dead horse on the forums all the time. Relic is working extremely closely with the community to improve the game for everyone (casual players and competitive players alike).


I think that's where we'd disagree immensely. Inverse and others have been in close contact with Relic and put in a lot of time behind the scenes trying to improve CoH2's future, and they aren't seeing the results. Their frustration is natural.
14 Feb 2014, 20:45 PM
#311
avatar of PingPing

Posts: 329

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2014, 20:22 PMSeb

Don't give me ideas! It would be pretty funny to imagine this forum with a user profile option to turn on "I play the game" and it would show by default only messages from other people playing the game.


It'd be a small sub forum...LOL
14 Feb 2014, 20:48 PM
#312
avatar of pionr

Posts: 44

So, Relic went from 3 developers + 1 community guy to 3 developers + 3 community managers. Interesting !

14 Feb 2014, 21:05 PM
#313
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2014, 20:44 PMKolaris


I think that's where we'd disagree immensely. Inverse and others have been in close contact with Relic and put in a lot of time behind the scenes trying to improve CoH2's future, and they aren't seeing the results. Their frustrating is natural.


I've been a part of the balance beta for quite a long time now, and I've seen suggestions of my own, as well as plenty of others active in the beta get implemented or at least tested. We're also generally in direct contact with different members of Relic's staff and get to voice our opinions/concerns to them.

Sure they don't listen to everything we say, they don't test everything we say and sometimes we have bad ideas (as would anyone) but they're definitely listening to the entire community and trying to work very closely with us.
ntd
14 Feb 2014, 21:21 PM
#314
avatar of ntd
Admin Black Badge

Posts: 790 | Subs: 2

The balance beta forums is one thing, the forums that we have here on coh2.org are a totally different matter with handpicked people talking directly with Relic since well before the game was released, in fact since the Alpha. When you get promised both publicly and privately things that don't happen for a year and a half and they continually ignore gameplay/balance advice, it's no wonder most of the people involved in the early balance/gameplay discussions have given up.
14 Feb 2014, 21:52 PM
#315
avatar of Rogers

Posts: 1210 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2014, 20:22 PMSeb

Don't give me ideas! It would be pretty funny to imagine this forum with a user profile option to turn on "I play the game" and it would show by default only messages from other people playing the game.


haha I completely agree. The amount of people not playing and just bitching is reaching over 90000
14 Feb 2014, 22:13 PM
#316
avatar of 5thSSPzWiking

Posts: 135

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2014, 21:52 PMRogers


haha I completely agree. The amount of people not playing and just bitching is reaching over 90000

well if the current state of the game was fixed people would play and not bitch.
14 Feb 2014, 22:23 PM
#317
avatar of wuff

Posts: 1527 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2014, 18:47 PMInverse
Two of the popular user-defined tags on Steam are "DLC whoring" and "Pay 2 Win". Not to mention the 1.8 Metacritic user rating from over 5000 reviews.


We all know most of those reviews are not legitimate.
14 Feb 2014, 22:25 PM
#318
avatar of Basilone

Posts: 1939 | Subs: 2

This thread is a huge slap in the face to all the casters that spent thousands of hours making content for this franchise and then you blame them for CoH2's shortcomings instead of analyzing why the game hasn't been much of a hit in the the competitive scene, or maybe trying to appease some of the problems with the core game instead of just changing the balance which at this point shouldn't be a priority.

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2014, 16:44 PMCieZ
Finally a quick plea to Inverse, and others, that haven't touched COH 2 in upwards of 6 months yet delude themselves into thinking they understand the state of the game - please play some CoH 2 before assuming things. The game now is WAY different (and way better) than it was back in the open beta/early release. The game is fun to play, takes more skill than most want to admit (because it is easier to cry RNG/pay2win than admit your own losses), and is beautiful to watch.

And in your case it is easier to take credit for being some super leet badass CoH2 pro, instead of just facing the facts that the game isn't nearly as competitive as its predecessor. Less strategic depth + lower skill ceiling = fewer high caliber players. So do what you always do and accuse me and Inverse and whoever else shares a similar opinion of being nostalgic elitist cavemen noobs that wants CoH2 to fail, but the reality is it would just make our day if CoH2 became the proper sequel we were expecting (and were told) it would be.

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2014, 22:23 PMwuff


We all know most of those reviews are not legitimate.


Well the campaign was absolutely horrendous, and since it is becoming increasingly apparent that this game was intended to be a single player blockbuster rather than a highly competitive esports title, those reviews sure are legitimate.
14 Feb 2014, 22:34 PM
#319
avatar of MajorBloodnok
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 314

Posts: 10627 | Subs: 9

I am probably wrong, but to me,something of Noun's fine opening post points to the elephant in the room. i.e. the arch-caster for CoH: Harlequin.

Harlequin - Terrence O'Brien - had no sides; he always transmitted as a genuinely enthusiastic person - clearly highly intelligent -who never portrayed a toxic element. He sprung out of nowhere into C0HO, took the initial toxic hits- 'Who are you?' - in his stride- and proceeded to gather support where 'Tales of Heroes' had left off.He was innovative with his casts- no fear of webcams - he was -crucially- entertaining and positive, so that those who followed him, will not forget "Bazooka Joe" or "Panzerschrek Johann".Nor indeed,Harlequin's passion for Calliopes!

I recall Imperial Dane begging for a game of his to be cast by Harlequin- I recall Inverse ( the GR Admin for CoHO (who took over from Hill Home), who damns CohO now) taking part in a Harlequin leet tournament, with others like Nystrom. And this was after Inverse had cast his first educational cast re Langres on CoHO. And I recall Krebs subsequent pathetic attempts to emulate Harlequin's style, with mis-pronunciation of German words. Except it never came off(for me), bcs the copy was so bald

When CoHO was sadly dismantled. Harlequin attempted to belatedly learn vCoH, whilst growing DOW Retribution. He had the support of people like Budwise Reborn and Nosliw Reborn. But the good ole boys from GR.org were out there, sniping hard and viciously. I think even their jaundiced view on life would have been overcome, but sadly, commercial opportunities led elsewhere and seduced Hsrlequin away.

After he had gone, Bridger -another premium caster - who returned with Rogers, to put out some lovely vCoH training casts - lamented the loss of opportunity to cast with Harlequin

I never, ever heard a tribute to Harlequin from SNF

SNF currently have 4,338 followers.Harlequin stopped 3 years ago with 2,998 followers. Go figure.

PS Both Krebs and Basilone were CoH) noobs,who tried to recreate a self-justifying back-history to exculpate themselves with the good ole boys,but that is another story.....
14 Feb 2014, 22:35 PM
#320
avatar of wuff

Posts: 1527 | Subs: 1

This thread is a huge slap in the face to all the casters that spent thousands of hours making content for this franchise and then you blame them for CoH2's shortcomings instead of analyzing why the game hasn't been much of a hit in the the competitive scene, or maybe trying to appease some of the problems with the core game instead of just changing the balance which at this point shouldn't be a priority.


And in your case it is easier to take credit for being some super leet badass CoH2 pro, instead of just facing the facts that the game isn't nearly as competitive as its predecessor. Less strategic depth + lower skill ceiling = fewer high caliber players. So do what you always do and accuse me and Inverse and whoever else shares a similar opinion of being nostalgic elitist cavemen noobs that wants CoH2 to fail, but the reality is it would just make our day if CoH2 became the proper sequel we were expecting (and were told) it would be.



Well the campaign was absolutely horrendous, and since it is becoming increasingly apparent that this game was intended to be a single player blockbuster rather than a highly competitive esports title, those reviews sure are legitimate.


No they're not, read them.

I have spoken to the metacritics parent company, they were well aware of the issue though no action was taken.
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