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Elite Mod Continues - Version 2.2+

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5 Feb 2014, 22:36 PM
#1
avatar of Kolaris

Posts: 308 | Subs: 1

With Tommy and FatalSaint moving on to bigger and better things, the EliteMod is left in a bit of a limbo. Tommy gave the go-ahead for others to keep it updated, and I'm jumping in to do just that. After the outstanding games of the TFN Elite Mod Tournament I don't see anything obvious that needs adjusting. This update is aimed at squashing bugs in existing changes and letting the community know that Elite Mod can continue if we want it to.

Gamefront Link for Elite Mod v2.4
Mediafire Link for Elite Mod v2.4

I've removed some loose and unnecessary files to lower the file size, you should delete the existing Elite Mod folder from your Company of Heroes directory.

Version 2.4 Changes -


Full Changelog -


Credits -
5 Feb 2014, 22:44 PM
#2
avatar of Kolaris

Posts: 308 | Subs: 1

Going to restart discussion here with some thoughts about changes I'm unsure of.

Cheaper WM T4...I think it's unused only because of how dominant T3 is. I'm not sure if lower costs will help (or if they'll be too helpful in T1 > T4 strats) since you're still competing with a robust T3.

Inspired Assault...it's a tricky ability, and Terror is really strong even with no one using it whatsoever. Do we want to see it keep its drawbacks, or become more of an "any time it's ready ability" like FtF? I'm definitely in favor of the former. I think that fixing its effects on MGs, Mortars, Paks, and Nebels is a good place to start, but I don't know about lowering the Munitions cost.

I still think Snipers need addressing in some way: see Symbiosis vs Aimstrong game 2.

I'm thinking Off-Map artillery may need addressing in some way: see Purlictor vs Symbiosis game 1.

CoH is random and that shouldn't be changed. But everyone here has years of experience with the game, and I think trimming down some of the RNG outliers fits in with the idea of an Elite Mod, just like lowering autocover.
5 Feb 2014, 22:48 PM
#3
avatar of Von Kluge
Patrion 14

Posts: 3548 | Subs: 2

All the best of luck with this project, Tommy's and Fatal's hard work deserves to live a long life.
5 Feb 2014, 22:57 PM
#4
avatar of 12ocky

Posts: 508 | Subs: 1

Ugh I was gonna launch this this weekend FUFUFUFUFUFU. Then again I wouldn't be able to do it without you anyway. So it's all chill. :clap:
5 Feb 2014, 23:27 PM
#5
avatar of 12ocky

Posts: 508 | Subs: 1

Wehr Tier 4
Well compared to Tier 3 yes, it's better to not continue on from Tier 3 onwards because the Tier 4 unit don't offer much more specialties. (except KCH vs sniper and panther for some really hardcore tankbattles with Pershing involved.) Stug outclasses panzer IV by a mile mainly because it scales so much better with veterancy, Puma spam at least equals Ostwind which is unreliable at longer ranges (only superdamage at shorter ranges on open cover). Whilst you can always rely on puma bursts.

So the only way to improve is give Tier 4 some buffs. So it can really stand out from Wehr Tier 3. I refuse big nerfs to Wehr tier 3 because with the new Americans, Wehr Tier 3 is no longer OP. M10 train stops everything it has.

The only thing I would wanna see some changes to is the Puma. (As was noted in the final game on Angoville, it was very gamechanging by itself.) Oh yeah and Bombing Run being able to damage stugs would be nice.


Let me get my notes.

Tier4
* Tier 4 tech cost from 200/50 to 150/50
* Panzer Command cost from 260/50 to 230/50, build time from 165s to 145s
* Stuka AoE accuracy increased to 1x at all ranges
* Stuka Damage against Howitzers increased from 1.0x to 1.25x
* Stuka Damage vs all infantry types from 0.25x to 0.35x
* KCH capping rate from 1 to 1.25
* KCH no longer require vet 1 for panzerfaust
* KCH now have standard M24 grenade (or bundled nade) instead of assault nades
* All US smg's, BARS, hull, coaxial and other 30 cals now have 0.78x accuracy modifier vs heroic armor
* Killing a KCH experience points granted lowered from 4 to 3
* Panzer IV and Ostwind acceleration from 1.2 to 1.5

* Panzer IV AoE damage long from 0.2x to 0.3x, medium from 0.35x to 0.4x
* Ostwind penetration vs garrison cover from 0.25x to 0.75x, accuracy vs garrison cover from 0.25x to 0.3x
* Ostwind damage vs light cover reduced from 0.8x to 0.75x
* Ostwind accuracy vs heavy cover increased from 0.25x to 0.5x
* Ostwind now has a ready aim time of 0.1 seconds
* Ostwind horizontal turret speed from 150 to 120
* Ostwind cooldown from 0.5s to 0.75s
* Ostwind moving cooldown from 1.5x to 1x
* Ostwind max reload from 6s to 5s
* Ostwind long range accuracy from 0.35x to 0.4x
* Ostwind damage vs Greyhound from 0.5 to 0.55x
* Ostwind price from 410/40 to 365/40
(overall, Ostwind vs cover slightly more to the norm, better at long range, some weird burst effects at short range a little bit reduced, cheaper)


* Tank veterancy level 2:
- Panzer IV, Ostwind and Panther now get 0.9x reload
- MG42 TANK turret damage from 4 to 5
6 Feb 2014, 00:22 AM
#6
avatar of Kolaris

Posts: 308 | Subs: 1

The other thing I wanted to mention was maps. They're fair game imo...I can make simple changes, or we could enlist more talented mappers.

Balance is to the point that maps play the largest factor, and I'd love to hear opinions on who was the advantage from which starting positions, and if there are small changes that we could do to improve map balance.
6 Feb 2014, 03:25 AM
#7
avatar of 12ocky

Posts: 508 | Subs: 1

Green wall back on Semois would be great
6 Feb 2014, 08:06 AM
#8
avatar of Purlictor

Posts: 393

I think we need to look at grenspam a bit, with the sniperspam nerf and wehr players being able to deny the US player veterancy really well I often feel like it's a bit too strong. Requires more testing though.

Just an idea for maps:

I'd like to see a shotblocker between the south cutoff and middle +10 munis on Langres. This might look weird but it would make the middle a bit easier to hold for US. An alternative would be to open up a gap in the southern middle hedge.

Obviously these are quite big changes but honestly Langres just feels too wehr favored unless the US player plays especially well.

On an unrelated note, I really like kch giving away less vet. Maybe make tank depot cheaper again (300/90) like in beta? This would mean more US tanks so wehr T4 would also be more useful.
6 Feb 2014, 08:48 AM
#9
avatar of EFDreamerBG

Posts: 76

Good that you continue working on it, BUT.. isnt there a specific forum for mods ?
6 Feb 2014, 10:01 AM
#10
avatar of Spanky
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1807 | Subs: 2

Specific forum is meant for coh2 only, no?
6 Feb 2014, 15:02 PM
#11
avatar of Guderian

Posts: 155

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Feb 2014, 23:27 PM12ocky
Wehr Tier 4

* Tank veterancy level 2:
- Panzer IV, Ostwind and Panther now get 0.9x reload
- MG42 TANK turret damage from 4 to 5


Am I correct to understand this as a tank veterancy buff? In such case it should be reverted and done in the other direction - the tank mg gunners should be nerfed. Particularly their suppression.
6 Feb 2014, 15:34 PM
#12
avatar of AvNY

Posts: 862

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Feb 2014, 23:27 PM12ocky

Tier4
* Tier 4 tech cost from 200/50 to 150/50
* Panzer Command cost from 260/50 to 230/50, build time from 165s to 145s
...
* KCH capping rate from 1 to 1.25
* KCH no longer require vet 1 for panzerfaust
* KCH now have standard M24 grenade (or bundled nade) instead of assault nades
* All US smg's, BARS, hull, coaxial and other 30 cals now have 0.78x accuracy modifier vs heroic armor
* Killing a KCH experience points granted lowered from 4 to 3


Taken all together those are some HUGE buffs to KCH. I am wondering if all those little changes taken together won't amount to a huge difference in game play. It isn't as though KCH were rarely seen on the battlefield.

About the only real weakness people complained about was taht they gave so much vet to the riflemen. While it wasn't impossible for riflemen to kill vet0 or 1 KCH, unvetted or low vetted rifelmen always had a hard time killing vet2 and especially vet3 KCH. And if they do manage to kill them I always thought it was a fair reward that they vetted in return.

Is there a way to change the experience points gained based on the veterancy of the unit killed? I think that would be much fairer, but don't know if it is possible to mod. That would even make it worthwhile to try and kill vetted Wehr infantry with riflemen instead of snipers seeming to be the only reasonable counter.

6 Feb 2014, 16:39 PM
#13
avatar of Kolaris

Posts: 308 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Feb 2014, 15:34 PMAvNY


Is there a way to change the experience points gained based on the veterancy of the unit killed? I think that would be much fairer, but don't know if it is possible to mod. That would even make it worthwhile to try and kill vetted Wehr infantry with riflemen instead of snipers seeming to be the only reasonable counter.



This is something I'd campaigned for for a looong time, and yes it's possible. I had suggested a comprehensive mechanic that increased the XP of all vet units of all factions by 10/20/30%, but that's overboard.

It makes sense to me that the reward for killing a unit correspond to the difficulty of killing it. Obviously, since Grens are worth more XP than Volks, and KCH more than Grens.

Vet 2 means you're losing so few models that rewarding Rifles that actually do kill Grens is important.

Current WM XP Values:
1 Volks
2 Grens
2.5 Stormtroopers
4 KCH

What about this:
1 Volks
2 Grens & Stormtroopers
2.5 Vet 2 Grens and Vet 2 Stormtroopers
3 KCH
6 Feb 2014, 16:50 PM
#14
avatar of Budwise
Admin Red  Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2074 | Subs: 2

I think we're starting to veer too far off course imo. Just fix whats broken in the OF factions now instead of totally revamping vanilla factions.

Lets be honest, EliteMod and other COH mods will never really go anywhere. The best we could ever hope for is a polished balance patch that we can hand over to Relic and beg pretty please for them to do one last balance patch to fix sniperspam, stags, etc. The more you guys fuck with it and do shit that isnt needed the less likely this will ever happen and the more likely that all your time is wasted.
6 Feb 2014, 17:10 PM
#15
avatar of Von Kluge
Patrion 14

Posts: 3548 | Subs: 2

For thos of you who want to fix or improve the elite mod, take the advise of vcoh veterans so you do the right job intended to revamp the level of excellence vcoh once had :)
6 Feb 2014, 17:25 PM
#16
avatar of Kolaris

Posts: 308 | Subs: 1

I think we're starting to veer too far off course imo. Just fix whats broken in the OF factions now instead of totally revamping vanilla factions.

Lets be honest, EliteMod and other COH mods will never really go anywhere. The best we could ever hope for is a polished balance patch that we can hand over to Relic and beg pretty please for them to do one last balance patch to fix sniperspam, stags, etc. The more you guys fuck with it and do shit that isnt needed the less likely this will ever happen and the more likely that all your time is wasted.


It's a tough spot since either you stay a hair's breadth away from vanilla and hope it gets "official" use, but it's so similar to vanilla few people have an incentive to play it

Or you add good but unnecessary changes in the hopes of garnering interest

To be honest I'm in favor of the former like you are Budwise, but I felt the mod was already heading towards the latter. If that's what Tommy and the community wanted I had no problem with that.

If we were taking the "balance patch" approach, I think the only real impactful and necessary changes so far are:

1. Rifle Reinforce
2. Sniper anti-spam aura
3. Throw in the bug fixes and gameplay improvements for good measure

At which point you'd move on to OF, likely keeping the # of changes down and consigning them to being UP in 1v1 and ok in 2v2.
6 Feb 2014, 17:29 PM
#17
avatar of Guderian

Posts: 155

Kolaris I understand your point and agree about those changes, but I think we have more important balance issues to work on. Namely - wm t3, wm ht and tonns of OF stuff (if we get into that). KCH are supposed to give away lots of vet - just as its hard to kill them. Someone who goes for unvetted kch and complains about rifle vet - deserves it.

I'd like to focus more on t3 units, since I think each and every one needs small changes. Puma is a bit tricky since from what I've seen it can be a bit random with its damage. Sometimes one burst can headshot multiple rifles on by one, sometimes it does just a little health damage. Is there some crit modifyers for it? The nebel needs a movement speed nerf in my opinion, the damage and vet bonuses are all fine, but should be slower, for now with 2 vet3 nebels you can pretty much fire non stop and never get hit by arty by shift moving after fire. And the Stug... well there goes my personal least favorite unit in the whole damn game. The "go for stugs in any unclear situation" playstyle shouldn't work in my opinion. The way to fix it could be removing supression from tank gunners, or introducing some kind of "antispam" (if its possible for inf units maybe for tanks as well?), but either way something should be done coz its a very cheap, very spammable unit, and shouldn't be a solution against nearly every kind of play US can go. And before you talk about better m10s taking care of it - you introduce one schreck or even better a t2 backtech and no m10 train will accomplish anything. Look at the recent tourney final game 4.
6 Feb 2014, 17:41 PM
#18
avatar of Spanky
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1807 | Subs: 2

I think we're starting to veer too far off course imo. Just fix whats broken in the OF factions now instead of totally revamping vanilla factions.

Lets be honest, EliteMod and other COH mods will never really go anywhere. The best we could ever hope for is a polished balance patch that we can hand over to Relic and beg pretty please for them to do one last balance patch to fix sniperspam, stags, etc. The more you guys fuck with it and do shit that isnt needed the less likely this will ever happen and the more likely that all your time is wasted.


I seriously hope that smoking gun team would consider this mod as the last balance patch and the relic would give them the permission to go forward with it.
6 Feb 2014, 17:57 PM
#19
avatar of Cyru$

Posts: 83

...Lets be honest, EliteMod and other COH mods will never really go anywhere. The best we could ever hope for is a polished balance patch that we can hand over to Relic and beg pretty please for them to do one last balance patch to fix sniperspam, stags, etc...


I don't think this mod should aim to be "official". Imo, this is the perfect platform for tourneys: polished gameplay, less bugs, and fuckin awesome live casting! I think the last tourney proved you wrong, if you think such a succesfull tourney is going nowhere I totally disagree. Anyway I have to agree with you that unnecessary changes = bad changes.

keep it up kolaris, great stuff here.
6 Feb 2014, 19:40 PM
#20
avatar of gunther09
Donator 22

Posts: 510


Lets be honest, EliteMod and other COH mods will never really go anywhere. The best we could ever hope for is a polished balance patch that we can hand over to Relic and beg pretty please for them to do one last balance patch to fix sniperspam, stags, etc. The more you guys fuck with it and do shit that isnt needed the less likely this will ever happen and the more likely that all your time is wasted.

+1
and thank you Kolaris for stepping in here. You have a pretty big trust-aura. That helps. GL!
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