Login

russian armor

Patch Notes Discussion (Dec. 10th)

PAGES (12)down
12 Dec 2013, 08:39 AM
#121
avatar of Aradan

Posts: 993



Conscripts have never been "useless" nor are they now. If they are useless to you, you are doing something wrong.

For 240 mp you'll get a solid basline Infantry unit that can be upgraded to soft counter pretty much everything and does excellent service when it comes to flanking manoeuvres.


Yes, before patch. Try them versus G43.
Now i use conscripts for taking Ost superb support weapons.
12 Dec 2013, 08:43 AM
#122
avatar of Turtle

Posts: 401

Apparently PGrens do wonders against anything, their high damage and reduced building buffs means they don't even need to throw grenades into buildings now, they just walk up and fire into the windows.

I laugh at all the people whining about PPSHs being everywhere. They will, but it's countered by the MG42 buff they all wanted, and by a tweaking of how PPSHs work.

Don't want to be overrun by conscripts with PPSHs? Use the MG42 safe in the knowlege that the Soviet player won't have the munitions to toss those petrol bombs, if they do, it's one less PPSH equipped unit for bit.

As I've said in other threads, while stats don't lie, people are just as easily able to lie to themselves and others using stats.

PPSHs will still be effective, they'll just be used in different ways to access that effectiveness.
12 Dec 2013, 08:57 AM
#123
avatar of GustavGans

Posts: 747

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2013, 08:43 AMTurtle
Apparently PGrens do wonders against anything, their high damage and reduced building buffs means they don't even need to throw grenades into buildings now, they just walk up and fire into the windows.

I laugh at all the people whining about PPSHs being everywhere. They will, but it's countered by the MG42 buff they all wanted, and by a tweaking of how PPSHs work.

Don't want to be overrun by conscripts with PPSHs? Use the MG42 safe in the knowlege that the Soviet player won't have the munitions to toss those petrol bombs, if they do, it's one less PPSH equipped unit for bit.

As I've said in other threads, while stats don't lie, people are just as easily able to lie to themselves and others using stats.

PPSHs will still be effective, they'll just be used in different ways to access that effectiveness.


I have yet to play the Germans post patch. But I'm also pretty sure that the building cover and mg42 changes will compensate for the earlier and cheaper ppsh.
12 Dec 2013, 09:32 AM
#124
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
When applying just a flat 50% or 25% accuracy modifier to the listed DPS stats, to roughly portray the penalties effect atleast proportionally (couldnt figure how to change the accuracy field in the spreadsheet itself to let it do all the work), the results are:

Vanilla Cons:
Stationary: 15.24 / 9.55 / 3.85
Moving----: 7.62 / 4.77 / 1.93

PPSH Cons:
Stationary: 23.79 / 13.95 / 4.12
Moving----: 15.3 / 8.87 / 2.45

So a moving PPSH Con unit has roughly the same effective DPS as a stationary Vanilla Con unit.

Its obvious that any unit with an accuracy penalty from movement, will be more effective when standing still. However to get the most use out of PPSH, you want to be in close, which requires moving to get there.

The reduced FOTM penalty in conjunction with the PPSHs much higher DPS than Mosin, helps cover the difference pretty well.

Basically means a moving PPSH Con squad retains roughly the same DPS a stationary Vanilla Con squad would have, but about twice as much DPS as a moving Vanilla Con squad would have.

(The actual DPS numbers probably aren't accurate, cos the accuracy modifier would need to be inserted somewhere deeper into the DPS formula than I am able to, but they should still atleast proportionately portray the difference in stationary and moving DPS of the two setups)
(Inb4 random haters find something wrong with it and have a field day being jackasses, when they dont even attempt to contribute anything remotely factual themselves)
12 Dec 2013, 09:36 AM
#125
avatar of c r u C e

Posts: 525



Conscripts have never been "useless" nor are they now. If they are useless to you, you are doing something wrong.

For 240 mp you'll get a solid basline Infantry unit that can be upgraded to soft counter pretty much everything and does excellent service when it comes to flanking manoeuvres.

Please play with them before making comments that they are "baseline" and they soft counter everything...before patch I wasn't using them incorrectly
Pre-patch PPsh made them decent,now they are just bad...
12 Dec 2013, 09:42 AM
#126
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
j O k E r: So what exactly is your problem with Cons now, after patch?
12 Dec 2013, 10:08 AM
#127
avatar of c r u C e

Posts: 525

Nullist:I think it's obvious...
12 Dec 2013, 10:30 AM
#128
avatar of Turtle

Posts: 401

PPSHs are Commander specific, and even if the cost is relatively small, is still a cost that prevents usage of munitions for other purposes.

Buffed MG42 will help keep conscripts, and any other infantry, from getting close enough.

PGrens are still potent as ever, and have both raw DPS and abilities to keep Cons at bay.

LMG still retains its killing power at combat ranges, enabling it to drop enemy squad members, reducing the DPS of the enemy squad and making it retreat earlier. The aforementioned MG42 buff also helps with LMG synergy.

Just pointing out the counters here. I don't think the situation is bad, especially since it's only been over a day since the patch was released.

Meanwhile, the animation cancellation's effect on command lag seems have had a positive effect which tends to benefit the larger Soviet squads. The tank scatter while moving nerf definitively boosts the effectiveness of infantry against unprepared tanks, which benefits Soviets more, even though Shrek PGrens will also make good use of the change.

If you only look at the DPS on a commander specific weapon upgrade, you fail to see the whole picture. If you only see the lower base strength of vanilla cons, you miss all the other support options.
12 Dec 2013, 10:36 AM
#129
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
Nullist:I think it's obvious...


No, Im genuinely asking you to explain abit what you mean.

What exactly is your problem with Cons now, after patch?

Pleas just answer that normally. Its not an unreasonable question.
12 Dec 2013, 10:40 AM
#130
avatar of GustavGans

Posts: 747


Please play with them before making comments that they are "baseline" and they soft counter everything...before patch I wasn't using them incorrectly
Pre-patch PPsh made them decent,now they are just bad...


My standard soviet build includes at least 3x cons and I have yet to find someone that doesn't use them because of their "uselesness".

At-nades can cripple every german vehicle up to t3 reliably, molotovs work perfect both against infantry and weapon teams, oorraah makes flanking a lot easier, in the late game you can use them to reinforce your weapon teams, so so yes they are basline soviet infantry and yes they can softcounter a lot of stuff.

Don't send cons head on into a firefight with upgraded or superior infantry. If you have trouble dealing with G43's just go here
12 Dec 2013, 11:18 AM
#131
avatar of c r u C e

Posts: 525



My standard soviet build includes at least 3x cons and I have yet to find someone that doesn't use them because of their "uselesness".

At-nades can cripple every german vehicle up to t3 reliably, molotovs work perfect both against infantry and weapon teams, oorraah makes flanking a lot easier, in the late game you can use them to reinforce your weapon teams, so so yes they are basline soviet infantry and yes they can softcounter a lot of stuff.

Don't send cons head on into a firefight with upgraded or superior infantry. If you have trouble dealing with G43's just go here


My standard built WAS 5xCons then Shocks but that doesn't matter here...
Before if microed correctly,they would've put a good fight against LMGGrens,PGrens and G43Grens...Now whatever you do,they are minced meat...
12 Dec 2013, 11:26 AM
#132
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
My standard built WAS 5xCons then Shocks but that doesn't matter here... Before if microed correctly,they would've put a good fight against LMGGrens,PGrens and G43Grens...Now whatever you do,they are minced meat...
I dont understand how you base this.
According to listed changes atleast, nothing has been done to Cons, PGrens, LMGs and only change to G43 is its now equivalent of of 1CP in old system.

I ask again, please explain what you mean when you say you have problems with Cons after this patch?

Are you trying to say there was some ninja nerf we dont know about?

Its possible, since the patch notes where very incomplete.

Or what are you trying to say spefically?
12 Dec 2013, 11:27 AM
#133
avatar of GustavGans

Posts: 747



My standard built WAS 5xCons then Shocks but that doesn't matter here...
Before if microed correctly,they would've put a good fight against LMGGrens,PGrens and G43Grens...Now whatever you do,they are minced meat...


I still fail to see your issue. As far as I know cons have not been nerfed, grens have not been buffed also g43s and lmgs remained unchanged.

So did you always go with a ppsh commander pre patch?
12 Dec 2013, 11:34 AM
#134
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1148

I agree cons feel a lot weaker now, I think its mostly down to early G43s.

I very rarley used Ppsh before patch, so its not that.


Do not underestimate penals now, they are very good to have against G43 grens.
12 Dec 2013, 11:46 AM
#135
avatar of c r u C e

Posts: 525

@Nullist I am talking about the PPsh nerf,sorry if I didn't made that clear...
The PPsh's are used by Conscripts so as I was saying Conscripts are weaker with this change/nerf whatever
@Gustav Most of times yes,I chose a commander with PPsh :)
Played two matches in which Conscripts were minced meat against (almost)everything that had infantry written on it :)...
They were before too but it was a lot more survivable when thay had decent damage
12 Dec 2013, 11:49 AM
#136
avatar of SmokazCOH

Posts: 177

Huge dislike for PPSH nerf! This was way too harsh, and the wrong solution. Bring it back to decent status and up the price to 30.
12 Dec 2013, 11:54 AM
#137
avatar of c r u C e

Posts: 525

Huge dislike for PPSH nerf! This was way too harsh, and the wrong solution. Bring it back to decent status and up the price to 30.

Yes I don't understand this either,I never had trouble equipping Conscripts with PPsh's...This "change" gives a slight advantage for Soviets early game,but mid to late game this upgrade doesn't even make a difference so it's pretty usseles...
12 Dec 2013, 12:20 PM
#138
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
@Nullist I am talking about the PPsh nerf,sorry if I didn't made that clear...
The PPsh's are used by Conscripts so as I was saying Conscripts are weaker with this change/nerf whatever


Ok, I see, thanks for clarification. Well, if you want to talk about specifically PPSHs then it would have helped if you had said so specifically earlier. When you say "Cons feel weak" its not at all the same thing as saying "Cons with PPSH feel weak". Know whatI mean? It helps to be as specific as possible.

If you read this thread, you might have missed the posts that Wooof made which show the old and new stats, and also his observation that PPSH where basically incorrectly still operating with Single Player stats, rather than Multi Player ones.

I attempted to elaborate on his post with some calculations on the new PPSH here:
http://www.coh2.org/topic/11822/patch-notes-discussion-dec.-10th/post/104934

Basically PPSHs where pretty grossly overperforming before, so its probably quite a shock for someone who was used to taking advantage of that, compared to what they are now when they have the proper Multiplayer stats.

As I tried to demonstrate in my calculations, what you can expect from the new PPSHs is roughly the following:
-A Moving PPSH Con will do roughly the same DPS as a Stationary Vanilla Con
-A Moving PPSH Con will do roughly twice the DPS of a Moving Vanilla Con.
-A Stationary PPSH squad will do roughly 60%ish more DPS than a Stationary Vanilla Con.

So as I stated earlier, this incentives PPSH Cons as a more mobile DPS platform than Vanilla Cons, since they are as good when moving when compared to a stationary one, and twice as good when compared to a moving one. When stationary, they have 60% more DPS, which is substantial, but its really the PPSH double DPS when moving that stands out, over moving Vanilla Cons.

For 10 Muni, I think thats pretty good. Double DPS when moving compared to Vanilla moving, the same moving DPS when compared to a stationary Vanilla, and 60% more when stationary.

Hope that helps you adapt to the change!

Noteably, in parallel to this change, Shocks are now CP1, which is twice as early as before. Their armor makes a mockery of small arms, and their overall PPSH output is greater since they all carry one, rather than just the two that PPSH Cons have. Im not certain, but I think they have always had the same 25% moving accuracy modifier as the new (balanced to Multiplayer) PPSHs have. So they are very good when mobile. Not as much DPS as PGrens, but substantially better armored.

If you preferred PPSH and assault infantry style play before the change, you might want to have a Shock or two in the mix for some more staying power, since now they are earlier too.

(Assuming I got the proportions right. Im not a math genius by a long shot, just trying my best to provide some info.l
12 Dec 2013, 12:25 PM
#139
avatar of OZtheWiZARD

Posts: 1439

So I played few games, number of them being 1v1, almost exclusively as German.
As far as MG42 goes can we all say the unit is in a good place now? Stops everything going frontally unless outnumbers or units going from external sides of the arc? No more Hoorah- molotov madness. Garrison changes helps Germans a lot I think and I am glad to see "the building wars" over.
G43 is to potent to come out so early. Who cares about LMG now if you can get so much better all around weapon and you don't have to stand still to use it. I always loved G43 but you had to play a bit safe as it came out latter in the game but now you can have it almost at the same time you'll get your LMG.

The other thing I've noticed is how effective German mortar is against buildings now with its turbo rate of fire. I know its supposed to have lower accuracy then Soviet one but I really can't see the difference. I think this is something balance team could look at next. I have been using both German and Soviet mortars on attacking and receiving end as well and the difference between these two units in practical use is overwhelming. German seems like dead accurate, auto firing machine gun while Soviet's one struggle to hit everything and you have to wait like a minute between shots (exaggeration for description purpose only, does not represent actual in game stats). I know you get Vet1 ability that changes the unit later but I don't think this is strong enough justification for that of a different in effectiveness between these units. I got this feeling that the only Soviet mortar worth using right now is the 120mm one because when investing in the standard one you may not get your money back. Have no solid idea how to fix this. Maybe increase its stats, make it better but re-work Vet1 ability so its less powerful?

I had a chance to play against Soviet Industry as well. It was 1v1 but hard to tell as this was a strange experience. I know for a fact that SI is not as strong as it used to be but was nerf strong enough? Really hard to tell. I do share Nullist's feeling that profit or shall we say marketing team was involved in balance discussion because the changes done to both doctrines (SI and ET)are strange to say at least.
I managed to win this one but I am afraid I was simply much better then my opponent. On the plus side you can be prepared for T-70 now. I saw commander in my opponents pull before game started and luck of infantry kind of told me he/she is going for it (I didn't know that you can check it now) so I kind of played safe saving munition and teching for AT guns but as I said the game was quite unusual and I suspect my opponent didn't know exactely what to do. He tried to cheese me with T-70 base rape but I got amunition saved up for Panzerfausts and med bunker up and running so I just circle strafed Grenadiers in base and retreated two more squad to double Faust this T-70 :) Good times :) I bet he didn't expect this coming:)
12 Dec 2013, 12:27 PM
#140
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1148

At this stage Im feeling super happy with myself than I was never a big Ppsh guy, and dont have to adapt to life without them.
PAGES (12)down
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • U.S. Forces flag shadics ARG.
  • U.S. Forces flag TüMe
  • Ostheer flag The101stAirBorne
  • Ostheer flag Clororaa
uploaded by TüMe

Board Info

325 users are online: 1 member and 324 guests
capiqua
10 posts in the last 24h
132 posts in the last week
852 posts in the last month
Registered members: 37680
Welcome our newest member, pansy3
Most online: 1221 users on 25 Feb 2020, 12:03 PM