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russian armor

3 minutes 221 is obscene

22 Jan 2023, 21:36 PM
#1
avatar of Tom_BR

Posts: 76

I would just like to share this opinion. I hope the genius who thought it was cool to give this bonus to OKW with 3 minutes of gameplay suffers a lot. When you from a bad USF or UKF have your 4th squadron and you don't even have a cure for troops yet, shit like that appears. I've already lost count of how many early game matches won were saved just because this shit appeared 3 minutes into the game. Top balancing.
22 Jan 2023, 22:01 PM
#2
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2792 | Subs: 4

The 221 has about as much armor as a Kubel and the damage is nothing special at vet 0 even up close... so please tell me what makes this thing so unfair compared to M3, Universal Carrier and WC-51
22 Jan 2023, 22:47 PM
#3
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1502

The 221 has about as much armor as a Kubel and the damage is nothing special at vet 0 even up close... so please tell me what makes this thing so unfair compared to M3, Universal Carrier and WC-51


While it's far from OP. It is cancerous on some maps (wide open, with plenty of road, especially in 6-8 maps).
UC, M3 and WC51 don't have utility beyond the early game. Well, WC51 had, but it was nerfed to the ground (the whole commander was). The 221 also has what no other LV has: "Get-Out-Of-Jail-Card" Smoke, and 3 shot HP with vet. Making it a great resource generator later on in the game that can't be easily destroyed.
I would also argue that 221 is great at chasing down retreating squads early on, something the UC or M3 or WC51 can't do, due to the MG rotation lock. I've seen, on large maps, 221 chase down a 4 man retreating squad (50% hp overall) and wipe them. Recently a brit ally retreated from bottom VP on Rhine 3v3, 221 chased from the VP, almost to the base, and got a wipe on a 3 model retreat with 70% hp (nasty since a lot of red cover on that map).

The saving grace for 221, is that it's doctrinal. The problem is, it's doctrinal in a completely broken commander (heat + commander upg). So overall, it is definitely bad design. Not OP or anything. It's not like, when you field it, you immediately get an advantage. But it good hands, 221 is really strong. Much stronger than WC51 or M3, and has much more utility than other LVs. Overall, 221 is brutal against brits and USF on some maps.


But then again. 72.5 sight range KT exists, with suppression and HEAT shells. So I only hope that Relic leaves the COH3 balance in their own hands. 221 is fine. Really strong and useful, but not OP.
22 Jan 2023, 23:43 PM
#4
avatar of Tom_BR

Posts: 76

My only complaint is that he enters the game too early. completely incompatible. there's nothing that can stop him. there's no time or having bazzoka or PIAT to counter. just upgrade to have more LVL CP and problem solved.
22 Jan 2023, 23:51 PM
#5
avatar of Inept

Posts: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jan 2023, 23:43 PMTom_BR
My only complaint is that he enters the game too early. completely incompatible. there's nothing that can stop him. there's no time or having bazzoka or PIAT to counter. just upgrade to have more LVL CP and problem solved.


Small arms kill it, smgs destroy it
23 Jan 2023, 00:21 AM
#6
avatar of Tom_BR

Posts: 76

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jan 2023, 23:51 PMInept


Small arms kill it, smgs destroy it


yes but you need to keep 2 to 3 squads focused on shooting him only. It still takes too long and your opponent will simply back off, notice and come back with him. and you lost valuable MP and Time in this game. MG doesn't come into play after 3 minutes with USF, even so a player with a minimum of intelligence will not stand still in front of the machine gun with a light vehicle. he is fast, he has smoke, he gains a lot of HP with the upgrade and Vet. with 3 minutes USF there is absolutely nothing to stop you. Best of all, he's running after the retreating troops and killing them all.
23 Jan 2023, 01:47 AM
#7
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2792 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jan 2023, 00:21 AMTom_BR


yes but you need to keep 2 to 3 squads focused on shooting him only.


Then... do just that? Either blob your squads together early, or simply retreat everything (and not with 10% HP left) and wait until you have LT or Captain at minute 3-4. The LT can upgrade to a bazooka and the captain can rush out an AT gun super fast with supervise ability
23 Jan 2023, 03:16 AM
#8
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 857

The 221 also has what no other LV has: "Get-Out-Of-Jail-Card" Smoke


What about the Flak HT? M20? AEC? Or did you mean superlight :clap:?
23 Jan 2023, 09:16 AM
#9
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 807

didn't expect seeing this thread. Complete L2P issue, small arms fire damage the 221. Use cover or blob up to focus fire it. 221 damage is nothing special.

If you know a 221 is on the field, avoid having low HP squads and late retreats in the early game.
23 Jan 2023, 10:16 AM
#10
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13375 | Subs: 1



While it's far from OP. It is cancerous on some maps (wide open, with plenty of road, especially in 6-8 maps).
UC, M3 and WC51 don't have utility beyond the early game. Well, WC51 had, but it was nerfed to the ground (the whole commander was).

You are factually wrong.

M3 has spot and can cap
WC51 has 155mm Artillery Barrage,Mark Target
UC with MG has suppress/spot and can defend HMG very effectively.


The 221 also has what no other LV has: "Get-Out-Of-Jail-Card" Smoke, and 3 shot HP with vet. Making it a great resource generator later on in the game that can't be easily destroyed.

see post 8


I would also argue that 221 is great at chasing down retreating squads early on, something the UC or M3 or WC51 can't do, due to the MG rotation lock. I've seen, on large maps, 221 chase down a 4 man retreating squad (50% hp overall) and wipe them. Recently a brit ally retreated from bottom VP on Rhine 3v3, 221 chased from the VP, almost to the base, and got a wipe on a 3 model retreat with 70% hp (nasty since a lot of red cover on that map).

Now you are glorifying a unique feature for no apparent reason, actually M3 and WC51 can perform better at chasing since the passengers can fire on retreating squad. Since flamer suffer little penalty on retreat squad flamer CE are great it.


The saving grace for 221, is that it's doctrinal. The problem is, it's doctrinal in a completely broken commander (heat + commander upg). So overall, it is definitely bad design. Not OP or anything. It's not like, when you field it, you immediately get an advantage. But it good hands, 221 is really strong. Much stronger than WC51 or M3, and has much more utility than other LVs. Overall, 221 is brutal against brits and USF on some maps.

But then again. 72.5 sight range KT exists, with suppression and HEAT shells. So I only hope that Relic leaves the COH3 balance in their own hands. 221 is fine. Really strong and useful, but not OP.

And now ranting of topic.

(edited a typo)
23 Jan 2023, 10:19 AM
#11
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 857

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jan 2023, 10:16 AMVipper
WC with MG has suppress


wat

since when?
23 Jan 2023, 10:22 AM
#12
23 Jan 2023, 10:30 AM
#13
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13375 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jan 2023, 21:36 PMTom_BR
I would just like to share this opinion. I hope the genius who thought it was cool to give this bonus to OKW with 3 minutes of gameplay suffers a lot. When you from a bad USF or UKF have your 4th squadron and you don't even have a cure for troops yet, shit like that appears. I've already lost count of how many early game matches won were saved just because this shit appeared 3 minutes into the game. Top balancing.

UC,M3,WC51 all can counter the 221.

In addition low accuracy/High ROF weapon like SMG and some carbines (like stens/Rear Echelon) are good vs it.
23 Jan 2023, 10:35 AM
#14
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 857

23 Jan 2023, 12:09 PM
#15
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13375 | Subs: 1



WC =/= UC

thanks for pointing out a typo
23 Jan 2023, 12:13 PM
#16
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1806 | Subs: 3

The 221 is almost required in 4v4.

OKW gets stomped into the dirt by Brits. They have great infantry that arrive fast, MGs, and the UC. You have NO COUNTER AT ALL for MGs and the UC.

You need a counter to the Soviets clown car and sniper. Again as OKW you have none.

You can either make every faction the same (boring) or deal with some slightly annoying units. It is that simple.
23 Jan 2023, 15:30 PM
#17
avatar of Tom_BR

Posts: 76

when OKW brings the 221st to the front, usually you from the USF are doing your 3rd rifleman squad. in this case you have to cancel, do wc 51 and still have ammo and wait another 40 seconds until he completes the upgrade for the .50 to be ready. Honestly, that alone has already lost another 2 minutes being crushed by 221, any advantage you have achieved at the beginning of the game with USF against an OKW that draws the magic card 221 is lost (assuming your opponent didn't make several irreversible mistakes like losing a squad less than 5 minutes into the game) I just think since OKW has Kubbel with 0 CP , why give a 221 with 0CP too? This would give some time to react properly without losing half the map waiting for something to be ready to counter 221

(I mean only x1 or x2 games)
23 Jan 2023, 17:50 PM
#18
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1502



What about the Flak HT? M20? AEC? Or did you mean superlight :clap:?


I meant in combination. As far as I'm aware (take with a grain of salt as I don't play COH2 much), LVs either get an HP boost with vet, or they get/have smoke dispenser.



Then... do just that? Either blob your squads together early, or simply retreat everything (and not with 10% HP left) and wait until you have LT or Captain at minute 3-4. The LT can upgrade to a bazooka and the captain can rush out an AT gun super fast with supervise ability


Well, it's all well and good, but who do you shoot at when the 221 dives in to displace you from cover, and spios charge in with volks or whatever. 221, which will get repaired and not bleed, or the volk/spio which can bleed, but then the 221 will risk nothing diving all the way up to the base.
Hell, last game, paths + echelon behind green cover were destroyed by a charging spio over neutral cover (charge was about 4 seconds before spios got point blank). Hence why 221 is really good vs USF, especially vs pathfinders. Of course, most people forget that you can use the 221 to drive up (and kubel) and win any engagement early on with OKW. So it's easier vs forgetful people.

That's why UC, kubel, M3, and all other super LVs should literally have paper thin armour and more decent offensive abilities if they lack utility. 2 frontal, and 1 rear armor. Only problem would be the 6 man cons. Since every shot will most likely penetrate, having 6 rifles firing at a decent rate is much stronger than pathfinders for example with the slow firing snipers, and the meh firing carbines. Or Sections, with higher damage but lower ROF.

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jan 2023, 12:13 PMRosbone
The 221 is almost required in 4v4.

OKW gets stomped into the dirt by Brits. They have great infantry that arrive fast, MGs, and the UC. You have NO COUNTER AT ALL for MGs and the UC.

You need a counter to the Soviets clown car and sniper. Again as OKW you have none.

You can either make every faction the same (boring) or deal with some slightly annoying units. It is that simple.


True. I've yet to see a high rank OKW player not play elite armoured and go for the fast 221 in 3v3. Brits can stomp OKW early on, before the likes of JLI, ISGs and such, purely by placing the sections behind cover on most lane-y maps. 221 completely negates that. Mainly because even though there is a huge tank wreck, and the kubel is driving straight at it, the sections will run around :D like the kubel will phase through the wreckage and drive over them.
Still, there should have been better designs than this. UC is stupid, but at least OKW has t0 raketen and spios with MGs to melt the UC if caught out of position (and raketen is never a bad investment, especially since you can retreat it if you're forgetful).
I haven't seen the M3 clown car action in 3v3 for a year now. Mostly because everyone plays either fussies or elite(221) so the clown car is pointless. You either get the min 0 snare, or you get the LV that can pressure the M3. And if you can force the soviet player to upgrade the penals with PTRS, then you're winning the lane most certainly.
Have never seen the WC51 in teamgames, at all. It's in a mega nerfed 1v1 commander, which will never work in 2v2+ unless the enemy is incompetent.

So all in all, there is a pattern of bad design/balance. Nothing OP or UP, just bad design
23 Jan 2023, 17:52 PM
#19
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 857



I meant in combination. As far as I'm aware (take with a grain of salt as I don't play COH2 much), LVs either get an HP boost with vet, or they get/have smoke dispenser.


Aha. Well, I'm very certain you would be right about that.
23 Jan 2023, 21:39 PM
#20
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13375 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jan 2023, 15:30 PMTom_BR
when OKW brings the 221st to the front, usually you from the USF are doing your 3rd rifleman squad. in this case you have to cancel, do wc 51 and still have ammo and wait another 40 seconds until he completes the upgrade for the .50 to be ready. Honestly, that alone has already lost another 2 minutes being crushed by 221, any advantage you have achieved at the beginning of the game with USF against an OKW that draws the magic card 221 is lost (assuming your opponent didn't make several irreversible mistakes like losing a squad less than 5 minutes into the game) I just think since OKW has Kubbel with 0 CP , why give a 221 with 0CP too? This would give some time to react properly without losing half the map waiting for something to be ready to counter 221

(I mean only x1 or x2 games)

In order to get a 3 minute 221 one needs to produce a SWS truck after the second VG.

What would be the point of building a 221 after CP1 (or CP2) if one could get kubel much earlier with no tech or fuel cost?
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