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poll: call in vehicles as a design choice

poll: call in vehicles as a design choice - where do you stand on them?
Option Distribution Votes
8%
46%
8%
30%
7%
Total votes: 71
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
A_E
21 Dec 2022, 10:26 AM
#1
avatar of A_E
Lead Caster Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2422 | Subs: 6

poll: call in vehicles as a design choice - where do you stand on them?
I am trying to gather feedback on call in vehicles as a design choice for CoH3. Nothing official for Relic, I just might make a video on the topic.

Context: CoH3 currently looks set to heavily rely on call in vehicles, for example double light tank call in, double stug call in, or tiger call in for DAK. The Panzer IV infantry tank and Sherman EZ8 for Wehr and US (as seen in many pre alpha games). CoH2 had many, many, balance patches to mitigate the prominence of call in vehicles. However anecdotally many players seem to enjoy using them.

Whilst I'm sure they'll be balancing these carefully in January before launch, I just want to get an understanding of where people's attitudes lie currently.

Vote on the below with from very accepting to very against. These are generalist statements that I think covers the spectrum on this topic, please vote for the one that most represents you.
21 Dec 2022, 11:57 AM
#2
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1029 | Subs: 1

Call-ins system is competently fine. Its just need adjustments.

Delay upon unlock. In other words, say you stale your CP for quite some time, allowing you to instantly pick call-in unlock. This is where the problem comes from, such approach allow you to pretty much have a "panic button" considering you have enough resources.

What should be done - make cool down upon call-in unlock. It shouldn't necessary be equal to re-charge timer, but say at least half of it.
CoH2 did it right with 0CP call-ins like paths\ass.engis and so on, basically it they had "production" timer, but it worked only after the game start.

Imo this production timer should always be applied after you unlocked call-in, to mitigate instant panic usage.

Or something else could be done. Maybe call-in units should arrive after a delay which will represent their production time? Or just commander buttons should act like a simple unit order from building?

What I personally dont want to see, is, CoH2 style, unit inclusion in tech buildings, like P4J for wehr.
21 Dec 2022, 12:19 PM
#3
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2982 | Subs: 2

Call-ins system is competently fine. Its just need adjustments.

Delay upon unlock. In other words, say you stale your CP for quite some time, allowing you to instantly pick call-in unlock. This is where the problem comes from, such approach allow you to pretty much have a "panic button" considering you have enough resources.

What should be done - make cool down upon call-in unlock. It shouldn't necessary be equal to re-charge timer, but say at least half of it.
CoH2 did it right with 0CP call-ins like paths\ass.engis and so on, basically it they had "production" timer, but it worked only after the game start.

Imo this production timer should always be applied after you unlocked call-in, to mitigate instant panic usage.

Or something else could be done. Maybe call-in units should arrive after a delay which will represent their production time? Or just commander buttons should act like a simple unit order from building?

Definitely there needs to be some kind of delay.
One major problem with call in units in CoH2 was that they allowed tech skipping. If you didn't use call ins back then, you were always one tank behind. This made the meta and gameplay very boring, especially in smaller modes where power spikes matter more.
They somehow need to be bound to tech, but at this point it does not really matter if they are build in a building or called in from off map, beside the building delay.

What I personally dont want to see, is, CoH2 style, unit inclusion in tech buildings, like P4J for wehr.

Why is that?



What call ins could do though is to shift economy needs. That's apparently already Relic's design, since the call-in tanks in VulcanHD's video did cost manpower, but not fuel.
You could then build e.g. more LVs early on instead of infantry, generate less bleed and re-invest the saved MP into the vehicle call-in. Or, conversely, play more infantry heavy if infantry call-ins cost less MP and more mun or fuel.
It could also still work in the late game, when you realize you're out of one resource and can shift costs that way.
21 Dec 2022, 12:57 PM
#4
avatar of Spanky
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1820 | Subs: 2

I probably only had problem with coh2 call in vehicles when they had their moment in a patch which made their timing/power spike too good and it was annoying to play against(like valentine etc).

Now, I have never felt call ins are a bad thing, it gives the game some more flavor. You can build more strategies around this kind of play if you wish. It all comes down to balance.

What I don't like to see, is a double tank call in's. Single tank only and price them accordingly.

Also I do agree that a timing should be set, but not upon death, 3-5 minute cool down after calling in would make it harder to "spam" one certain tank.

So my final view: Price them accordingly of their power spike, make sure the timing is not too early (for heavier armor) and a 3-5 minute cool down after calling them in.

21 Dec 2022, 13:03 PM
#5
avatar of SquishyMuffin

Posts: 32

Technically, can add to diversity of strategies as a kind of relief unit or a snowball effect on your army. So I'm neutral with slight preference for them existing. A minor note could be that for new players or casual ones, it's easier UI-wise to find the non-doctrinal unit.
21 Dec 2022, 13:25 PM
#6
avatar of |GB| The Lnt.599

Posts: 321 | Subs: 1

Absolutely against call in vehicles. Not that i dont like additional unique units, i love unit diversity. But I sincerely believe they should be locked into tech structure to atleast solve timing issues. Literally every call in vehicle had to be locked into techstructure to not make them broken in some way and overshadow other doctrines which rely less on call ins. Sometimes it wasnt even needed because the unit itself was necessarily strong, but the timing at which it could arrive was insane. This together with a non-tech investment would give the player insane momentum.

Also call in vehicles resulted in imo frustrating games where u have the enemy on the ropes, but then because they they didnt spent any resources on tech, they call in an IS-2 or some mediums, just because they farmed cp's for getting rekt. Call in vehicles should not be a safe net for a players mistake to delay the inevitable.
21 Dec 2022, 16:36 PM
#7
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1509

Just don't make COH3 the same wannabe-e-sport-title like COH2.

Call-ins are fine. Neither good nor bad. They are just.... there.
There aren't really a lot of issues concerning the balancing around it. I mean, you either press a button and they pop out, or you wait for a minute more. Like that minute matters.

Absolutely against call in vehicles. Not that i dont like additional unique units, i love unit diversity. But I sincerely believe they should be locked into tech structure to atleast solve timing issues. Literally every call in vehicle had to be locked into techstructure to not make them broken in some way and overshadow other doctrines which rely less on call ins. Sometimes it wasnt even needed because the unit itself was necessarily strong, but the timing at which it could arrive was insane. This together with a non-tech investment would give the player insane momentum.

Also call in vehicles resulted in imo frustrating games where u have the enemy on the ropes, but then because they they didnt spent any resources on tech, they call in an IS-2 or some mediums, just because they farmed cp's for getting rekt. Call in vehicles should not be a safe net for a players mistake to delay the inevitable.


Well yeah. I mean, there is a big difference between a call-in without tech, and a call-in locked behind tech. No vehicle/unit should be outside of tech. Even infantry callins.
21 Dec 2022, 19:01 PM
#8
avatar of Musafir

Posts: 28

I like Call-in Vehicles but it should be like COH 1 style. There should be no Fuel requirements, only with Manpower you can call it. As for example when a US player needs Caliope to destroy enemy defenses and at the same time he needs to counter enemy tanks. So in this case he had only 1 options left, Call Caliope and blob AT guns/AT infantry which is clearly not a good game. Call-in should be with MP only but with good balances. Also there should Limitation in numbers. unlike if you have plenty of pop-cap left you can call unlimited Caliope. it should 2-3, doesn't matter how much pop-cap you have.
21 Dec 2022, 19:11 PM
#9
avatar of Musafir

Posts: 28

Also popcap should be increased/decreased according to the map control. In COH 2 there are 100 popcap from beginning. And when you pushed a player to his base, taking most of map control, he would be still trying to counter you with his Call-in blobs. And sometimes he wins because you're good player, you have good skill but you dont have skill to blob. This is one of the reasons that in COH 2 blob is dangerous. Also players follow meta bcoz of this.
Meta is for Arcade Strategy game not tactical strategy game like COH. If the community thinks that COH should be like DOTA, AOE etc then do whatever you want
21 Dec 2022, 20:19 PM
#10
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2848 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Dec 2022, 19:01 PMMusafir


jump backJump back to quoted post21 Dec 2022, 19:11 PMMusafir


CoH1 diehard fan spotted :snfPeter:

22 Dec 2022, 02:29 AM
#11
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1029 | Subs: 1


Why is that?


Because it just looks off. I am more of fan of allowing players to play how ever they want to begin with and commanders are supposed to create this diversion. It doesn't imply that you should be able to call-in Tiger by staling and having only T1.

But if call-ins had mechanic of production like any other regular unit, in other words by clicking on the icon of a call-in you just start building it off map, then they could be balanced around that. Say if you have T4 build, your tiger will take minute and half to build, if you don't have T4 build then it will take around 2 or 3 minutes to build. Players should be motivated and rewarded for teching, but teching shouldn't be forced in their throats.

On top of that, call-in system in vCoH despite being even more busted then in CoH2 worked completely fine after all balance changes. There was some questionable call-ins but over-all vCoH had\has more generic balance problems in the core factions, while doctrines work almost flawlessly.

CoH2 on the other hand, with linear CP unlocks, which is also required no efford from player to begin with, besides just clicking on commander portrait led to all the problems in a first place.

As for player being rewarded by loosing units and just staling, its a problem sure, but it have nothing to do with call-ins in general and should be addressed separately. In my mind, players shouldn't even receive CP by loosing units.

Point being, there are an open field of ways to make call-ins less frustrating and more competitive, yet, without using "CoH2 way", which ended up making game more competitive, for the cost of being less fun and with rock solid meta and ways to play each faction.

Well and there shouldn't be any double unit call-ins that for sure.
22 Dec 2022, 04:08 AM
#12
avatar of d0ggY
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 823 | Subs: 3

Calling in stuff because you just missplayed is so rewarding for the other player who has to repair and then get's dived. (i hope i could bring over the sarcasm well!)

Tank Call ins have to be tied to tech and have to have a certain cost. "Battlegroups" like we had with Panthers in CoH1, or t34/85s and okw p4's should just outright be removed
22 Dec 2022, 12:30 PM
#13
avatar of Musafir

Posts: 28





CoH1 diehard fan spotted :snfPeter:

I know this poll is about Vehicle Call-ins but just said my opinion. And i also know that the Current Community hates COH 1, and i dont think there will be any good game like COH 1 in future. And for this reason most of the old COH streamers/Veterans abandoned playing COH when COH 2 came out. I could have written some of their names here, but i dont think it would be good idea to mention their names in this particular forum.
23 Dec 2022, 11:31 AM
#14
avatar of capiqua
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 985 | Subs: 2

As in general there are two large groups of users. My idea would be to place two options of call-in in:

-Build behind tech (normal cost).
-Call-in on the screen with extra cost to call them (battlegropus 20% extra cost and +CP)




example 1:
I want to get a 200MP inf unit, and I do it through tech, which is a normal cost.
it would be 200MP and 0CP

example2:
I want rush and I use via battlegroup (it's the same unit as example 1), but with a 20% extra cost and +1CP
it would be 250MP and +1CP

example3:
I want rush and I use via battlegroup, I want a tiger (600MP 150FU 20pop), but with a 20% extra cost and +3CP
would be 720MP 180 and 23CP


you do not take the numbers are indicative, take the idea.
It can also be a 30% tiger would be 750MP 188FU and 23CP

That is, I have those two options with each unit call-in
With the idea of having 2 callin options Coh3 we follow the trail of coh1 and coh2.
23 Dec 2022, 12:06 PM
#15
avatar of Kieselberg

Posts: 266

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Dec 2022, 04:08 AMd0ggY
Calling in stuff because you just missplayed is so rewarding for the other player who has to repair and then get's dived. (i hope i could bring over the sarcasm well!)

Tank Call ins have to be tied to tech and have to have a certain cost. "Battlegroups" like we had with Panthers in CoH1, or t34/85s and okw p4's should just outright be removed


Battlegroups are actually a nice way to balance stuff out. You cant stall for just one unit. You have to take everything, which takes more careful planning.

It will kill panic button call ins, since it will cost way more.
8 Jan 2023, 22:42 PM
#16
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 769

I remember this particular horror very well, as we had a similar situation in 2015 with coh 2. The only commanders that were being used back then were the ones with call-in tanks. Tier 3 and tier 4 were never built because it was considered suicidal to do so.

It made coh 2 a boring ass game back then. Tie call-ins to tech tiers but give them something unique to make them worth it.
9 Jan 2023, 08:14 AM
#17
avatar of scratchedpaintjob
Donator 11

Posts: 1021 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Dec 2022, 19:01 PMMusafir
I like Call-in Vehicles but it should be like COH 1 style. There should be no Fuel requirements, only with Manpower you can call it.


I think that is an important point. The high manpower costs in vcoh meant that call-ins were more costly i feel. In Coh 2 the fuel cost rarely stopped me from getting a call-in, which is why pressing the panic button in form of a call-in was pretty much always the right choice, because there was still enough MP for reinforcements and such.
9 Jan 2023, 10:39 AM
#18
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1190

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Dec 2022, 19:01 PMMusafir
I like Call-in Vehicles but it should be like COH 1 style. There should be no Fuel requirements, only with Manpower you can call it. As for example when a US player needs Caliope to destroy enemy defenses and at the same time he needs to counter enemy tanks. So in this case he had only 1 options left, Call Caliope and blob AT guns/AT infantry which is clearly not a good game. Call-in should be with MP only but with good balances. Also there should Limitation in numbers. unlike if you have plenty of pop-cap left you can call unlimited Caliope. it should 2-3, doesn't matter how much pop-cap you have.


Tiger Ace was free back in the day of COH2's life... it did no go well for its enemy.
9 Jan 2023, 14:38 PM
#19
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1011



Tiger Ace was free back in the day of COH2's life... it did no go well for its enemy.


Thankfully nobody's advocating for free callins here.
9 Jan 2023, 17:16 PM
#20
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3538 | Subs: 1

Call-ins issue in Coh2 is a problem with Coh2 mechanism or lack of mechanism balancing the game.
Poor army tech implementation
Poor mapping implementation
Poor Commander implementation

Hopefully from what we've already seen from Coh3 those points have already been tackled and improved to be more Coh1 alike.
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