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Why does Overwatch(commander) exist?

4 Dec 2022, 13:40 PM
#81
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13365 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Dec 2022, 09:59 AMLooney


Interesting how you're saying Shock/Guards at 1CP made Sov broken, which I agree on. But what are your thoughts on JLI being 1 CP?

Looking at how they perform. I feel like JLI should arrive at 2 CP, like most other elite infantry call ins.

PLS read what you quoted and what has already been posted:


jump backJump back to quoted post3 Dec 2022, 22:54 PMVipper

....
You are dead wrong about this.

This was clearly proven when Relic in their infinite wisdom moved Shock troops and Guards to CP1 and the Soviet become completely broken.

The same actually applied to both JLI and Pathfinder since the started becoming an issue when their CP was requirement where reduced (JLI from 2 to 1) (Pathfinder from 1 to 0)


jump backJump back to quoted post20 Nov 2022, 11:38 AMVipper

....
The critical kill mechanism should be a timed ability for all 3 unit and units with it should not be spammable.

JLI should not be a CP2 (they actually where and they did not work).

In sort these unit should neither be used as mainline infatry nor should they be "eite" infatry, they should be support unit.
4 Dec 2022, 14:08 PM
#82
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13365 | Subs: 1



As JLI are part of overwatch commander, the total strength of the commander is decided by the abilities and units that are unlocked once it is chosen. The combat performance vs other units decide how the opponent will respond. Once again, picking a short range focused squad is overall win for OKW as most maps are long range focused along with LMG Obers arriving later to completely negate any push as JLI also have vision and other utility.

Why is this obvious? Why should a more expensive and later arriving unit with a LONG RANGE focus lose? Airborne Guards are an AI focused ELITE unit with no utility outside of combat, why should this unit lose to a cheaper scout unit? Which unit should win long range against JLI behind light cover?

Long range cover to cover fight is the optimum setting for JLI performance, using as argument is as nearly as helpful as conducting a test Pioneer vs Infantry sections at point blank. It does not very helpful.


So what am I wrong about?

I have quoted what you are wrong about but let me quote you again.


....
4. It is only 1 CP it is not that much later. CP1 vs CP2 is similar time,

When it comes to call in infatry the difference between CP0, CP1 and CP2 has a massive impact.

Pathfinder become an issue because when they where move to CP 0 and they where able to become the USF mainline infatry.


Unit performance is tied to unit timing, and as I have said several times JLI arrive to early for a unit that can fight mainlines and scale to fight elites. I think I was unclear in my wording when responding to your comment about Pathfinder timing. What I meant to say is it takes about 2.5 mins to 3.5 mins to reach CP1. That means JLI do not arrive much later than Paths, with a dedicated build it is easy to spam JLI. CP2 usually arrives late 5 to early 7 min window(same time gap), so JLI have plenty of time to start vetting before they have to compete with Allied elites.

JLI and especially JLI with scoped G43 are significantly later than Pathfinder and in most games they are used in smaller numbers, especially since JLI have a long cool down.


Yes it was broken when shocks arrived that early, but CP cost wasn't the only issue. If I remember correctly at that time Shocks could still throw smoke and HE with separate cooldowns and Guard LMG had Gren LMG performance.

If there where such issue they also existed at CP2.
What made them broken was the CP 1 difference I think we can establish that.


Instead of nerfing JLI so they would be less spammable, a significantly longer cooldown was given. So performance was known to be an issue but it was never meaningfully address.

Pathfinder are more spam-able than JLI.

JLI where more spam-able and they where nerfed to be less spam-able by removing the infiltration spawn and by having longer cooldown (I did not find a documentation on changing CD although I do remember it to be sorter).

JLI/Pathfinder do not simply need a nerf they need a redesign as support unit.

I am not sure what you arguing with me about I already have said that these unit are badly designed and have made suggestion on how to fix them.
4 Dec 2022, 15:27 PM
#83
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3504 | Subs: 1

You need to have a god like preservation unit skill to callin more than 3 pathfinders without severely hampering your economy. Some people like to go 1 RM + 3 Path, some other 3 Pathfinder directly then 1 more unit later (team weapon or para).
Not sure if 3PF can be called spam.

Put JLI at Path level and CP0 and they're going to be fine, Soviet and Brit have easy counter already fielded vs OKW and USF issue vs them is an USF internal problem that can be solved by buffing Riflemen to their correct level.

Thus I'm not sure it would solve the situation with Overwatch which is batshit OP anyway.

4 Dec 2022, 17:52 PM
#84
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 643

Sounds like you could just build 3-4 jli and have a 100% win rate
4 Dec 2022, 23:12 PM
#85
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13365 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Dec 2022, 17:52 PMKoRneY
Sounds like you could just build 3-4 jli and have a 100% win rate

One would need to own OKW and play OKW first.
5 Dec 2022, 13:31 PM
#86
avatar of Looney
Patrion 14

Posts: 444

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Dec 2022, 13:40 PMVipper

JLI should not be a CP2 (they actually where and they did not work).

In sort these unit should neither be used as mainline infatry nor should they be "eite" infatry, they should be support unit.


I mean Pathfinders are definitly support units, thus 1 CP would be nice. I guess the reasoning was that the balance team wanted to give a second mainline starter option to USF. Sadly Cav Rifles couldn't be 0 CP, cause of reasons of course. USF's other mainline is not cost effective with the current mappool.

But how are JLI support units? Thanks to their ambush ability and RA they for sure feel like elite infantry. The JLI werh variant for example, is 2 CP and it works. Could you explain to me why the 2CP JLI did not work for OKW?
5 Dec 2022, 14:52 PM
#87
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13365 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Dec 2022, 13:31 PMLooney


I mean Pathfinders are definitly support units, thus 1 CP would be nice. I guess the reasoning was that the balance team wanted to give a second mainline starter option to USF. Sadly Cav Rifles couldn't be 0 CP, cause of reasons of course. USF's other mainline is not cost effective with the current mappool.

Pathfinder are not support units since in their current implementation they substitute mainline infatry and no there where not meant to be "second mainline infatry". (units like ostruppen and PFuss are meant to act as mainline infatry)

Cav riflemen could not be move to CP 0 because the WC51/Cave riflemen combo provides too much wipe out potential too early.

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Dec 2022, 13:31 PMLooney

But how are JLI support units? Thanks to their ambush ability and RA they for sure feel like elite infantry. The JLI werh variant for example, is 2 CP and it works. Could you explain to me why the 2CP JLI did not work for OKW?

OKW JLI and Ostheer C. JLI are completely different units. (the otheer version used to be CP3).

Jli received a number of buffs and changes.

They used to available to scavenger only a doctrine that is simply poor and they where not very cost efficient at 300 manpower.

The first time they where changed they become available to Overwatch (that also received the Lefh) and received a number of buffs. At that point the where broken since OKW could instantly produce them by using infiltration spawn and could apply lots of pressure.

Then the received a number of nerf including:
Jaeger Light Infantry

Cost increased from 250 manpower to 280
Deployment cooldown increased to 100 seconds.
G43 upgrade cost increased from 45 to 60

Infiltration Spawn Removed

Veterancy 5 -20% received accuracy modifier removed.


Point here is not if one should characterize this units "mainline" or "elite" the point is that critical kill mechanism should not be available to units that make the core of an army.
5 Dec 2022, 15:49 PM
#88
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1502

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Dec 2022, 13:31 PMLooney


I mean Pathfinders are definitly support units, thus 1 CP would be nice. I guess the reasoning was that the balance team wanted to give a second mainline starter option to USF. Sadly Cav Rifles couldn't be 0 CP, cause of reasons of course. USF's other mainline is not cost effective with the current mappool.

But how are JLI support units? Thanks to their ambush ability and RA they for sure feel like elite infantry. The JLI werh variant for example, is 2 CP and it works. Could you explain to me why the 2CP JLI did not work for OKW?


Pathfinders should not have been 0CP, but then again. Until 6 months ago, I've been playing 90% of Heavy Cavalry and 5% Airborne/Infantry. I did manage to reach rank 1 on multiple occasions for a couple of days, but after switching to pathfinders on large, open maps... the difference. How much easier it is playing against OST in 3v3s.... Example.
Take Across the Rhine.
There are a couple of MG42 positions like the top building or bottom behind the green tank covers, which are impossible to dislodge without mortar smoke (and building a mortar as USF is shooting yourself in the foot, especially since REs are combat useless early on).
So you have the Rear echelon and a rifleman against a pioneer and an MG42. Echelon can't fight a pioneer, even behind green cover. Tested it out plenty of times. In the beginning of the game, you can literally rush a pioneer over neutral cover, up to the green cover where the Rear Echelon is (eg behind the tank) and still win the fight with 2 pioneers remaining (something you can't do against sections or combat engineers, other starting units). And the MG42 needs a split second of a burst to suppress, unless you're running over yellow crater cover. You have a gren coming, and your second rifle. So it's a gren + pio + MG42 against 2 rifles and a RE.
In reality, it's 2 rifles and an equivalent of a single rifle model (so 2.2 rifles) against a gren, pio and an MG42 which if it suppresses, you're done.
Your options are:
Sit behind green cover and allow the potential sniper to hammer away at you (eg, double pio + MG42 into sniper builds vs USF on such maps), or the MG42 (42 pio sight).
Or
Split all your units and pray to God you guessed correctly that you sent the RE to the MG42 arc and your rifles are outside of the arc. You then have to pray that grens have poor RNG and they don't instantly connect those 16 dmg shots and take down your rifles on approach.
All of that disappears with Pathfinders. You don't have to guess, you are not "out-sighted" by pios, you don't depend on RNG/luck to flank the wide-as-fu*k arc MG42. Life is much easier.
Come lategame, you won't get shredded by grens, because you can outblob the gren blobs with paratroopers.
Obers as well.
Life is much easier if you go for pathfinders in teamgames.
But why do you need to go for pathfinders unless you want to play an uphill battle and suffer and bleed a lot more?

A) Map design + MG42 arc width
- Plenty of maps where a single MG42 is enough to practically cover an entire segment of a map. This is abhorrently obvious in 3v3s, which are basically 1v1s on a much smaller map/lane.
In 1v1, you send your RE to cap, another rifle to cap something else, and the third rifle to flank as needed. You can't do that in a 3v3. Why? Because you are not an omnipotent God. What if you're microing your rifles against an MG42 and the 3rd unit you sent to perhaps help your teammate's VP lane gets swarmed. Much larger population, and you're never really safe. I do play across 2 lanes. Always. My VP lane in 3v3 + the neighboring, allied one. Lost track of how many units I've lost to help/flank the allied VP lane only to get wrecked by some bundle nade for the split second I wasn't looking. Or even worse, a spio behind a sight blocker that wipes in 3 seconds point blank. So in the end, you try to focus on your lane, and only when you secure it, you send troops elsewhere. Hence why perhaps, without sight, most of your units can get fu**ed by a single MG42. Map design (Redball, Rhine, Whiteball... most 3v3+ maps).

B) Grens cost 240 MP but are worth at least 270. 300mp + 60m with the LMG. Sure they are a 4 man squad, but they can charge REs which are behind green cover, and win. Try to charge pioneers behind green cover with rifles to displace them quickly. Of course, why would you charge pioneers behind green cover? Well, rifles suck long range, and the pioneer-rifle combat, with both of them behind green cover will last for centuries. Rifles will win with 5 models standing, but to take down one model... months, maybe years.
Long range units can sit behind any cover and hammer away. Units like rifles need to close in to be effective.
MG42, with the current ROF, effectiveness of inc.rounds, and the suppression, combined with the pio sight, should have had a small arc, not the big one. Vickers has sh** suppression, and a wide arc on it is justified, especially since early on, they don't have real vision bonuses unless you tech early pyrotechnics and delay UC/heal. And that's one unit max, whereas double pio is quite common in 2v2+.

I couldn't believe how easier it was to play COH2 with USF, especially since I don't play COH2 much. I've got around 1800-2000 games in close to 10 years of COH2. 1500 USF games competitively and around 200 AI skirmishes and around 300 custom games on same maps/rules like ranked, but not. So first couple of years it was AI training, then WFA came out around 2015, started with USF, continued. So 1500 games in 7 years. 6 years of USF, mostly with heavy cav or infantry. With the community made balance patches, it became more difficult to play USF in teamgames. The strength of rifles waned, OST mainlines got buffed so they don't suffer early game. And the USF late game wasn't buffed to compensate. So you have a faction that is meh early, meh mid. Weak late.

Unless you go for airborne.
Then you don't have to suffer early.
Mid game you can win with paras and barfinders + AAHT (and dodge AT with extra vision).
And late game you have P47s to help out with the dives.
And if the OKW player goes for the HEAT shells + 72.5 sight KT + frontal MG suppression. You can bet your ass you will need a Hail Mary with AT offmap to destroy it.

You could also go a full circle and say: Game was being balanced between Soviet vs Ostheer. So as Ostheer was getting needed buffs for Soviets, and USF was getting nerfs because they ra*ed grens even harder than conscripts at close range, nothing was compensated. On the top of my head, the nerfs that stuck out the most:
Pak howi nerf. Nothing gained in return (6 man squad is not a buff, not with 1.25 RA, basically a nerf for the more compulsive people that want their squads at full HP).
Rifle smoke loss. "To foster combined arms".... with what other units? Rear echelon? I'd understand if USF had stock elite, but that was just a piss poor reason to nerf rifles.

People say "Spios are overloaded with jobs".
REs are not?
Plant tank traps for cover against long range axis infantry. Place mines in case of dives, so at least you slow down tanks. Run with blobs to use smoke against MGs, schwerer or whatever else. That's not an overloaded job? Not to mention they are useless in combat throughout the game. Spios get useless in combat after minute 16 unless with shrecks. And they do have the concussive. People are afraid to buff REs because they might get blobbed. I mean, unless it's not some mega uber buff, if you lose to RE blobs, you deserve a loss. It would be like a soviet player with 3 katyushas complaining about ober blobs.

All in all.
Use paths if you don't want to suffer.
I learned that recently. Makes the life so much easier. Don't get me wrong. Paths are extremely weak against LV plays, and you have to hug your ally that has some snares/AT. But overall, it's a blessing, especially since OKW players don't like using Puma/Luchs and a lot of OST players don't know how to use the 222 (double 222 sh*ts down pathfinder's throat with extreme prejudice).
I used to suffer in a lot of open games, but no more.

5 Dec 2022, 16:33 PM
#90
avatar of Looney
Patrion 14

Posts: 444

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Dec 2022, 14:52 PMVipper

Pathfinder are not support units since in their current implementation they substitute mainline infatry and no there where not meant to be "second mainline infatry". (units like ostruppen and PFuss are meant to act as mainline infatry)

Cav riflemen could not be move to CP 0 because the WC51/Cave riflemen combo provides too much wipe out potential too early.


OKW JLI and Ostheer C. JLI are completely different units. (the otheer version used to be CP3).

Jli received a number of buffs and changes.

They used to available to scavenger only a doctrine that is simply poor and they where not very cost efficient at 300 manpower.

The first time they where changed they become available to Overwatch (that also received the Lefh) and received a number of buffs. At that point the where broken since OKW could instantly produce them by using infiltration spawn and could apply lots of pressure.

Then the received a number of nerf including:
Jaeger Light Infantry

Cost increased from 250 manpower to 280
Deployment cooldown increased to 100 seconds.
G43 upgrade cost increased from 45 to 60

Infiltration Spawn Removed

Veterancy 5 -20% received accuracy modifier removed.


Point here is not if one should characterize this units "mainline" or "elite" the point is that critical kill mechanism should not be available to units that make the core of an army.


Yes, you're talking about changing their roles right? I feel like paths are a great unit for 1 CP. 2 rifles into an officer into Path is a valid build. But imo JLI function more like "elite" units thanks to the ambush skill and therefore I think 2cp is a much more reasonable timing for them.

Meaning apart from their timing, I think both units crit ability is fine. People need a reason to build JLI/paths and the crit is a big part of that.

I would suggest to change the timing, so they're not working as "mainlines" anymore.

But again, why would 2cp JLI not work exactly?
5 Dec 2022, 16:37 PM
#91
avatar of Looney
Patrion 14

Posts: 444


All in all.
Use paths if you don't want to suffer.



I feel the passion in your post :thumbsup:

It's honestly sometimes frustrating to play USF rifles and when you play paths the vision makes USF a lot more viable. I feel like in the current game, vision wins games.
5 Dec 2022, 16:47 PM
#92
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 643

USF always needed a jeep just like soviets got an m3. With all three allied factions getting access to scout tools mg42 could have had slight tweaks to setup time and suppression to be slightly faster/weaker for a faster paced game
5 Dec 2022, 17:00 PM
#93
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2926 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Dec 2022, 16:33 PMLooney


Yes, you're talking about changing their roles right? I feel like paths are a great unit for 1 CP. 2 rifles into an officer into Path is a valid build. But imo JLI function more like "elite" units thanks to the ambush skill and therefore I think 2cp is a much more reasonable timing for them.

Paths have been 1 CP before and no one build them. The main problem was and still is that USF is strongly funneled into building Riflemen. At the same time, building the officers takes ages, too. This usually forces you to build 3 Riflemen to keep map presence, 2 Rifles into an officer is possible, but usually not advisable.
You'll probably reach 1 CP at 3-4 min, which often coincides with the time you'd roughly get an officer and having no free MP to spare. Unlocking Paths at 1 CP was bad, because most viable builds will already have 3 Riflemen out there. If you build Paths next, you'll delay the officer and thereby a potential support weapon and you LV timing. If you build the officer first and then Paths, you will usually not have the MP to get a support weapon.
Also, having 3 Rifles, an officer and Pathfinders will also strain your MP economy a lot. 5 combat infantry squads is only advisable in special builds.

Other factions can afford having >1CP infantry due to multiple openings (early MGs or light vehicles like Kubel and UC). But not USF.

Making Pathfinders CP0 was a very good idea, but badly executed within the frame work of USF.
5 Dec 2022, 17:03 PM
#94
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13365 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Dec 2022, 16:33 PMLooney


Yes, you're talking about changing their roles right? I feel like paths are a great unit for 1 CP. 2 rifles into an officer into Path is a valid build. But imo JLI function more like "elite" units thanks to the ambush skill and therefore I think 2cp is a much more reasonable timing for them.

Meaning apart from their timing, I think both units crit ability is fine. People need a reason to build JLI/paths and the crit is a big part of that.

I would suggest to change the timing, so they're not working as "mainlines" anymore.

But again, why would 2cp JLI not work exactly?

If the selling point of JLI is damage the simply compete with other OKW infatry like Ober/Fall.

The reason for building units should be because they bring something else to the table and not just damage.

Would moving JLI to CP 2 some how make "work"?
That change would reduce the number of JLI one could field and make less attractive as they would not work less time in "infatry" phase of the game.

It would more like a "Relic type" fix, resulting in moving the unit to obscurity, maybe building 1 during a game.

Imo redesign these units would be a far better solution.

I have not suggested to remove the critical kill but making it a "timed ability" would help in many ways.

6 Dec 2022, 17:53 PM
#95
avatar of Looney
Patrion 14

Posts: 444

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Dec 2022, 17:03 PMVipper

If the selling point of JLI is damage the simply compete with other OKW infatry like Ober/Fall.

The reason for building units should be because they bring something else to the table and not just damage.

Would moving JLI to CP 2 some how make "work"?
That change would reduce the number of JLI one could field and make less attractive as they would not work less time in "infatry" phase of the game.

It would more like a "Relic type" fix, resulting in moving the unit to obscurity, maybe building 1 during a game.

Imo redesign these units would be a far better solution.

I have not suggested to remove the critical kill but making it a "timed ability" would help in many ways.



What I mean is with the current damage (ambush) they do feel like elite infantry, thus making them 2CP would be a better solution imo.

Only being able to build fewer of them sounds great! Every other faction works the same, you get 3-4 mainlines, an elite unit on top and/or replace wiped mainlines with more elite units. So no, OKW would not only get 1 per game thanks to that change.

And I didn't mean the selling point is exclusively dmg for JLI/paths. Compared to Obers/Falls JLI have much more utility in the shape of Flares, Sprint, Booby traps, Salvage and Field first aid.

I don't think the solution would be the timed ability. Not sure how it would exactly work but it sounds like it would just add unnecessary micro. Better to keep the units intact and change the timing.
6 Dec 2022, 18:06 PM
#96
avatar of Looney
Patrion 14

Posts: 444


Paths have been 1 CP before and no one build them. The main problem was and still is that USF is strongly funneled into building Riflemen. At the same time, building the officers takes ages, too. This usually forces you to build 3 Riflemen to keep map presence, 2 Rifles into an officer is possible, but usually not advisable.
You'll probably reach 1 CP at 3-4 min, which often coincides with the time you'd roughly get an officer and having no free MP to spare. Unlocking Paths at 1 CP was bad, because most viable builds will already have 3 Riflemen out there. If you build Paths next, you'll delay the officer and thereby a potential support weapon and you LV timing. If you build the officer first and then Paths, you will usually not have the MP to get a support weapon.
Also, having 3 Rifles, an officer and Pathfinders will also strain your MP economy a lot. 5 combat infantry squads is only advisable in special builds.

Other factions can afford having >1CP infantry due to multiple openings (early MGs or light vehicles like Kubel and UC). But not USF.

Making Pathfinders CP0 was a very good idea, but badly executed within the frame work of USF.


Yeah the officer build times feel really slow. USF got one of the most awkward timings compared to the other factions. Teching just feels more fluid whenever I play another faction.

I guess it's not without reason that the team changed it to 0 cp.
6 Dec 2022, 20:06 PM
#97
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13365 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Dec 2022, 17:53 PMLooney


What I mean is with the current damage (ambush) they do feel like elite infantry, thus making them 2CP would be a better solution imo.

When they used to be CP 2 at least they could infiltrate and be used to counter snipers. Now they have lost that (and although they can still counter snipers) at CP2 the enemy sniper would have a bigger window of opportunity.

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Dec 2022, 17:53 PMLooney

Only being able to build fewer of them sounds great! Every other faction works the same, you get 3-4 mainlines, an elite unit on top and/or replace wiped mainlines with more elite units. So no, OKW would not only get 1 per game thanks to that change.

No, faction do not work the same and OKW do not have early access to HMG so they usually spam more infantry than other factions.

I suggest for you next game with OKW you wait until CP2 to call in JLI and see how ti work for you
jump backJump back to quoted post6 Dec 2022, 17:53 PMLooney

And I didn't mean the selling point is exclusively dmg for JLI/paths. Compared to Obers/Falls JLI have much more utility in the shape of Flares, Sprint, Booby traps, Salvage and Field first aid.

JLI do not get flares
Sprint has limited use for long range unit with no normal grenades or snare
Booby traps are also available to Ober
Salvage is also available to other infatry
First aid kit is no bad but medic kits are also available

What they really bring to the table is the camo/extra sight.

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Dec 2022, 17:53 PMLooney

I don't think the solution would be the timed ability. Not sure how it would exactly work but it sounds like it would just add unnecessary micro. Better to keep the units intact and change the timing.

Pressing a button is the less micro than using a grenade.

Some of the benefits of being a timed ability are:
Player become aware of the existence of critical kill mechanism
Player are require to make a tactical decision when to use that ability
Balancing become easier since on has more tools at his disposal to fine the unit
Spam these units become less effective

These units should have lower cost and Pop than mainline infatry so that they can fit in the build and decent enough performance without being OP. Imo adding a timed ability is a good way to achieve that.
7 Dec 2022, 11:42 AM
#98
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2926 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Dec 2022, 20:06 PMVipper

No, faction do not work the same and OKW do not have early access to HMG so they usually spam more infantry than other factions.

OKW does have the Kubelwagen that let's you replace at least 1 infantry unit in the early game with a non-bleeding vehicle, which in turn usually opens up the space for getting more elite squads later on in the game.

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Dec 2022, 20:06 PMVipper
JLI do not get flares
Sprint has limited use for long range unit with no normal grenades or snare
Booby traps are also available to Ober
Salvage is also available to other infatry
First aid kit is no bad but medic kits are also available

What they really bring to the table is the camo/extra sight.

Just because other squads have it does not mean they don't bring anything to the table. You can skip other units and still have those abilities like the booby trap in your line up. The sprint is also decent to dodge Soviet and USF close range squads, much cheaper than losing an expensive model and retreating. In the Scavenge Doctrine, it also combines with the infiltration grenades if I am not mistaken to flank and attack support weapons.

I agree that their camo and sight is their biggest plus and I also add the snipe crit to it. 3 JLI squads were basically not counterable with infantry back when they were 0CP and you could spam them.
7 Dec 2022, 12:33 PM
#99
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13365 | Subs: 1


OKW does have the Kubelwagen that let's you replace at least 1 infantry unit in the early game with a non-bleeding vehicle, which in turn usually opens up the space for getting more elite squads later on in the game.

Do you agree with the point that "faction do not work the same"?


Just because other squads have it does not mean they don't bring anything to the table. You can skip other units and still have those abilities like the booby trap in your line up. The sprint is also decent to dodge Soviet and USF close range squads, much cheaper than losing an expensive model and retreating. In the Scavenge Doctrine, it also combines with the infiltration grenades if I am not mistaken to flank and attack support weapons.

I agree that their camo and sight is their biggest plus and I also add the snipe crit to it. 3 JLI squads were basically not counterable with infantry back when they were 0CP and you could spam them.

I never claimed that JLI do not bring anything to the table, this is what I wrote:

"The reason for building units should be because they bring something else to the table and not just damage."

If two units has abilities that already available one will chose the one that is more cost efficient, if two units have different abilities the choice because less obvious and might depend on a number of reason like maps, enemy build and so on.

JLI where CP 2 (and where not really used) and if they go back to CP 2 they simply compete with Fall and ober.

If in your opinion moving them to CP2 is good solution instead of redesigning them as support unit feel free to explain your reasons.
8 Dec 2022, 11:08 AM
#100
avatar of Hannibal
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jump backJump back to quoted post7 Dec 2022, 12:33 PMVipper

Do you agree with the point that "faction do not work the same"?

My point was clearly towards the second half of your statement: OKW can build a Kubelwagen (even two if you want to stretch it) to avoid spamming infantry and keep resources and population available to build elites. They have both options: Spam Volks or delay with Kubel and get more elites later.

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Dec 2022, 12:33 PMVipper
I never claimed that JLI do not bring anything to the table, this is what I wrote:

"The reason for building units should be because they bring something else to the table and not just damage."

If two units has abilities that already available one will chose the one that is more cost efficient, if two units have different abilities the choice because less obvious and might depend on a number of reason like maps, enemy build and so on.

JLI where CP 2 (and where not really used) and if they go back to CP 2 they simply compete with Fall and ober.

If in your opinion moving them to CP2 is good solution instead of redesigning them as support unit feel free to explain your reasons.

You're stretching what I have posted. I did not make a statement about changing JLI timing, nor about you saying JLI did not have utility at all.
In my opinion you understated the value of their current abilities. I have to correct though that they were spammed after a patch when JLI were lowered from CP2 to CP1 (not CP0 as I originally said) alongside a multitude of buffs.


Back to the main topic:
I think overwatch is fine overall. It was a horrible commander back when flares were auto-placed at every territory point. This was in my opinion the biggest nerf to the commander. The sector assault should be tuned down though and made cheaper. Even with AA it is hard to counter, because there are so many planes.
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