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Why does Overwatch(commander) exist?

18 Nov 2022, 22:54 PM
#41
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 777 | Subs: 1



Its not like you want to use stock grenadiers, by the time other elites hit the field. Not to mention that its pointless to use them without G43.

On top of that, grenadiers kars don't have exceptionally good close range damage, and the whole DPS of jaegers comes from sniping models.

Point being, if you want to counter jaegers just close the distance which wont allow them to get easy snipes.


if only they had options to defend these jaegers (sturmpios/volksgren STGs) from close range specialized squads
18 Nov 2022, 22:54 PM
#42
avatar of MassaDerek

Posts: 197



On top of that, grenadiers kars don't have exceptionally good close range damage, and the whole DPS of jaegers comes from sniping models.


They literally do, they're quite prone to repeatedly volley fire-sniping models from mid range, let alone up close.Only drawback is the every squad with Gren/Ober Kar98 has small squad size.Cons with 6 Kar98 would be even stronger than they are currently.
19 Nov 2022, 00:41 AM
#43
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 767

Stock grens do not have a great dps profile at any range. Yes, they are competitive early game vs other plain stock mainlines but that's about it.
Also, you get 0.8 RA for a considerably higher cost. So a squad that is able to deal with cons at any range while being like 80% more expensive is nothing to write home about and it is up for debate if close-range engagement with a gang of bums is going to be cost-effective. You what, start the fight get your recon squad to 2 or 1 wounded models in the end to achieve what?
19 Nov 2022, 01:29 AM
#44
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 590

Stock grens do not have a great dps profile at any range. Yes, they are competitive early game vs other plain stock mainlines but that's about it.
Also, you get 0.8 RA for a considerably higher cost. So a squad that is able to deal with cons at any range while being like 80% more expensive is nothing to write home about and it is up for debate if close-range engagement with a gang of bums is going to be cost-effective. You what, start the fight get your recon squad to 2 or 1 wounded models in the end to achieve what?


Gachi and you have the weirdest argument. Compared to Grens they cost 40MP more and vs VGrens it is 15MP more. Where is the 80% coming from?

JLI are 1CP, so them being competing DPS wise while having significantly better RA vs VG is a win. They have stock cloak and first strike gives them a 25% DPS boost. They have vision to make use of their better DPS profile, so when you move in with whatever unit you want they can take shots at you and then sprint to reposition or just straight up retreat and not incur any bleed.
19 Nov 2022, 01:44 AM
#45
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 590



Its not like you want to use stock grenadiers, by the time other elites hit the field. Not to mention that its pointless to use them without G43.

On top of that, grenadiers kars don't have exceptionally good close range damage, and the whole DPS of jaegers comes from sniping models.

Point being, if you want to counter jaegers just close the distance which wont allow them to get easy snipes.


They are CP1, they hit earlier than every other elite unit. They get their G43 at the same time fussies get their G43 and I believe VG get their STGs so what are you talking about. Before weapon upgrades they perform about the same as VG up close and better at range due to their superior RA.

Once again if Serelia is to be believed, Gren Kars do about 6 DPS per gun close range while SVT do 5. They only suck close range as others have said due to their small squad size. Their model snipe is significantly better than Paths as not only do they get a significantly higher threshold, they get .9 cover acc and significantly better far accuracy which is the only number that matters. If the shot hits with 75% or less health it is an instant kill. The .5 green cover damage modifier means nothing as it is a sniper crit.

Can you tell me in a real game situation which short range specialist you would use to counter them? They have vision so they can see you coming, have camo and they have sprint. All Soviet SMG squads are bad choices aside from AssG as they are a mixed model squad and retain around 75% of their DPS when dropping models but that locks you into shitty commanders. USF have the same issue, you will bleed on approach. The best counter is commandos as they can move in close without being detected and can leverage small squad weakness to nades.
19 Nov 2022, 04:01 AM
#46
avatar of MassaDerek

Posts: 197



Can you tell me in a real game situation which short range specialist you would use to counter them?

They have vision so they can see you coming, have camo and they have sprint. All Soviet SMG squads are bad choices aside from AssG as they are a mixed model squad and retain around 75% of their DPS when dropping models but that locks you into shitty commanders. USF have the same issue, you will bleed on approach. The best counter is commandos as they can move in close without being detected and can leverage small squad weakness to nades.



Tightrope won a 1v1 match against a JLI/Volks blobber using PPSH Cons, but to be fair the OKW's micro was lagging, he didn't use Volksgrens as meatshields/bodyguards for the JLI so they could pull back using sprint to restart the engagement.Instead he always had his JLI stand their ground close range up against the PPSH cons and lost several engagements in a row as a result.

19 Nov 2022, 08:31 AM
#47
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13365 | Subs: 1



They are CP1, they hit earlier than every other elite unit. They get their G43 at the same time fussies get their G43 and I believe VG get their STGs so what are you talking about. Before weapon upgrades they perform about the same as VG up close and better at range due to their superior RA.

Once again if Serelia is to be believed, Gren Kars do about 6 DPS per gun close range while SVT do 5. They only suck close range as others have said due to their small squad size. Their model snipe is significantly better than Paths as not only do they get a significantly higher threshold, they get .9 cover acc and significantly better far accuracy which is the only number that matters. If the shot hits with 75% or less health it is an instant kill. The .5 green cover damage modifier means nothing as it is a sniper crit.

Can you tell me in a real game situation which short range specialist you would use to counter them? They have vision so they can see you coming, have camo and they have sprint. All Soviet SMG squads are bad choices aside from AssG as they are a mixed model squad and retain around 75% of their DPS when dropping models but that locks you into shitty commanders. USF have the same issue, you will bleed on approach. The best counter is commandos as they can move in close without being detected and can leverage small squad weakness to nades.

serelia Path scoped profile is the wrong weapon.
19 Nov 2022, 11:06 AM
#48
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 590

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Nov 2022, 08:31 AMVipper

serelia Path scoped profile is the wrong weapon.


I know it is wrong, however to my knowledge G43 acc is superior at long range unless I am mistaken. Also Paths crit threshold is lower, they get no cover acc bonus nor garrison bonus. So serelia data has nothing to do with my post about their model snipe being better.( Unless I am wrong about the cover damage)
19 Nov 2022, 14:32 PM
#49
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13365 | Subs: 1



I know it is wrong, however to my knowledge G43 acc is superior at long range unless I am mistaken. Also Paths crit threshold is lower, they get no cover acc bonus nor garrison bonus. So serelia data has nothing to do with my post about their model snipe being better.( Unless I am wrong about the cover damage)


pathfinder_m1garand_scope_mp
DPS 1.8/2.2/2.5/3.3
acc 34.50%/57.50%/92%


jaeger_light_recon_g43
DPS 2.2/2.5/2.7/2.8
acc 57.50%/92%/115%

keep in mind accuracy is capped at 1 (not sure at what point of check)

G43 has lower accuracy penalty vs cover not a bonus.

It has really bad moving accuracy at 0.1.

19 Nov 2022, 15:43 PM
#50
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 590

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Nov 2022, 14:32 PMVipper


pathfinder_m1garand_scope_mp
DPS 1.8/2.2/2.5/3.3
acc 34.50%/57.50%/92%


jaeger_light_recon_g43
DPS 2.2/2.5/2.7/2.8
acc 57.50%/92%/115%

keep in mind accuracy is capped at 1 (not sure at what point of check)

G43 has lower accuracy penalty vs cover not a bonus.

It has really bad moving accuracy at 0.1.



Thanks, do you know off hand what Pathfinder mid range is? JLI is 25 so they start with a narrow range of superior acc from 25-35(40 with Vet).

But the capping only applies to DPS correct. For the sniper critical, DPS is not being calculated only the hit. So the extreme acc G43 has along with generally larger RA of Allied squad means each shot will hit and proper handling of the G43(targeting lower health squads) means each shot will work as a sniper 2.8DPS be damned.

Your right, glass half full vs glass half empty. Compared to most if not all other squads save for IR Obers it is a bonus. Or just a smaller penalty.

The ability to sprint allows an easy work around to reposition faster. All it really means is it is a bad chase squad. OKW has access to Obers or VG to chase while JLI crit.

Personally I don't think they need a massive nerf, they just give a lot for CP1, make it CP2 like the other Elites and were good.

20 Nov 2022, 11:38 AM
#51
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13365 | Subs: 1



Thanks, do you know off hand what Pathfinder mid range is? JLI is 25 so they start with a narrow range of superior acc from 25-35(40 with Vet).

But the capping only applies to DPS correct. For the sniper critical, DPS is not being calculated only the hit. So the extreme acc G43 has along with generally larger RA of Allied squad means each shot will hit and proper handling of the G43(targeting lower health squads) means each shot will work as a sniper 2.8DPS be damned.

Your right, glass half full vs glass half empty. Compared to most if not all other squads save for IR Obers it is a bonus. Or just a smaller penalty.

The ability to sprint allows an easy work around to reposition faster. All it really means is it is a bad chase squad. OKW has access to Obers or VG to chase while JLI crit.

Personally I don't think they need a massive nerf, they just give a lot for CP1, make it CP2 like the other Elites and were good.


The same at
pathfinder_m1garand_scope_mp
jaeger_light_recon_g43

Near/Mid/FAR 0/25/35

The better DPS of Carbine actually means that is fires faster (around 18%) since both weapon do the same damage.

Pathfinders also get 2 carbine (with reckon getting one).

Allied squads do not have larger Target size:
conscript_squad_mp Target size: 1.09
volksgrenadier_mp Target size: 1
riflemen_squad_mp Target size: 0.97
grenadiers_mp Target size: 0.91
tommy_squad_mp Target size: 0.85

The critical kill mechanism should be a timed ability for all 3 unit and units with it should not be spammable.
20 Nov 2022, 19:46 PM
#52
avatar of Grim

Posts: 1058

tbf the OKW faction as a whole seem to have been given a very lenient sense of balance once they are in team games.

Overwatch simply compounds that further.
21 Nov 2022, 01:34 AM
#53
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 590

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Nov 2022, 11:38 AMVipper

The same at
pathfinder_m1garand_scope_mp
jaeger_light_recon_g43

Near/Mid/FAR 0/25/35

The better DPS of Carbine actually means that is fires faster (around 18%) since both weapon do the same damage.

Pathfinders also get 2 carbine (with reckon getting one).

Allied squads do not have larger Target size:
conscript_squad_mp Target size: 1.09
volksgrenadier_mp Target size: 1
riflemen_squad_mp Target size: 0.97
grenadiers_mp Target size: 0.91
tommy_squad_mp Target size: 0.85

The critical kill mechanism should be a timed ability for all 3 unit and units with it should not be spammable.


Luckily, these units also compete against Elite units which usually have better Target sizes. Didn't use Obers as they arrive significantly later.

For PG/JLI .8
JCS .91
Falls .83

Using the mid range acc provided, Paths have good chance to hit with sniper crit

PG/JLI .46
JCS .52
Falls .48

However, once light cover is applied their performance drops significantly

PG/JLI .23
JCS .26
Falls .24

So about 1/4 shots to get that sniper crit going, as light cover is abundant at all phases of the game these numbers are the ones that matter most.

Now for the elites JLI compete against

Rangers/Commandos .73 combined both as there is only a .01 difference between the two
Shocks/Guards(Variants)/Paras/Penals .97 They are all between .95-1 so close enough

Midrange acc of .92 vs those target sizes

R/C .67
ST... .89

and applying light cover

R/C .6
ST... .8

So the one G43 outperforms the two Pathfinder snipers even in the worse scenario for the G43 which is going against Rangers/Commandos. Adding the fact that they fire about 20% faster as you stated would mean they are even as a worst case scenario for the G43.

At long range it is even worse as Pathfinders have between a 37-42% chance to hit elite axis units behind light cover. Where as JLI vs R/C have a little better than 75% chance to hit and around/over 100% chance to hit the other stated elites. The allied squads having 1 or 2 more models does not justify this difference in performance which becomes larger as both squads vet(Paths getting 25% acc and JLI getting 40%)

It also should be stated that none of the JLI numbers take into account first strike bonus and numbers are assuming that both units are meeting there threshold for the sniper crit which is easier for JLI.

In the end I do agree, neither should be spammable or at the very least like you said making the sniper crit a timed ability would solve some of the issue.
21 Nov 2022, 15:30 PM
#54
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13365 | Subs: 1

...

None of the these theoretical examples can provide any meaningful way of comparing JLI with Pathfinder for a number of reasons:

1) Half the squads you mention have no reason to keep fighting long distance and will simply close in
2) Pathfinder are CP and can become mainline infatry JLI not so much
3) USF including Pathfinders have access to BARs that can spread damage to entities allowing easier criticals
4) Pathfinder earlier timing and lower XP value allow to vet much faster
...
In sort Pathfinder are a problematic units anyway regardless of the performance of JLI.



In the end I do agree, neither should be spammable or at the very least like you said making the sniper crit a timed ability would solve some of the issue.

Nice to see that we agree.
21 Nov 2022, 17:47 PM
#55
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 767



Gachi and you have the weirdest argument. Compared to Grens they cost 40MP more and vs VGrens it is 15MP more. Where is the 80% coming from?

JLI are 1CP, so them being competing DPS wise while having significantly better RA vs VG is a win. They have stock cloak and first strike gives them a 25% DPS boost. They have vision to make use of their better DPS profile, so when you move in with whatever unit you want they can take shots at you and then sprint to reposition or just straight up retreat and not incur any bleed.

It was an answer to the argument that k98s "exceptionally good close range damage" so I came up with a hypothetical simple cqc engagement with a squad of cons (a.k.a gang of bums).

I still think that the JLIs are not the problem but the doctrine is. Overwatch has too much of good stuff.
For example "Scavenge" is not near the top yet it has JLIs. If JLIs were so great, that doctrine would have been meta as well.
Yes, it is one of the best units in the game but I would not call it OP, not in a million years.
21 Nov 2022, 20:34 PM
#56
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 590


It was an answer to the argument that k98s "exceptionally good close range damage" so I came up with a hypothetical simple cqc engagement with a squad of cons (a.k.a gang of bums).

I still think that the JLIs are not the problem but the doctrine is. Overwatch has too much of good stuff.
For example "Scavenge" is not near the top yet it has JLIs. If JLIs were so great, that doctrine would have been meta as well.
Yes, it is one of the best units in the game but I would not call it OP, not in a million years.


But I never said JLI were OP. All I am saying is that they are better than some people are giving them credit for such as Gachi. If you reread the posts he was the one who started with "exceptionally good close range damage" line of talking, all I stated was that they do better than SVT and the other available units such as VG and PF. As all three axis units can start upgrading at the same time is is a fair comparison between the 3. It would be asinine to expect them to do any more damage than they do close range. They are a great unit that synergizes well with Obers and the rest of the Overwatch commander as we seem to agree.

The other issue that you never addressed is the cost, where did you get that they were 80% more expensive? If you are talking reinforce cost Cons are the only unit that JLI would face that take the model losses without heavily impacting the players MP economy. Penals/Rifles/Tommies will all bleed hard and consistently.
22 Nov 2022, 21:52 PM
#57
avatar of Pedro_Jedi

Posts: 543

JLI should have the threshold for critslowered to 40% health, like Paths. Also, they should lose the sprint. With these 2 adjustments, they'd be way more balanced
23 Nov 2022, 14:25 PM
#58
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13365 | Subs: 1

JLI should have the threshold for critslowered to 40% health, like Paths. Also, they should lose the sprint. With these 2 adjustments, they'd be way more balanced

In sort Pathfinder should get 2 for free and OKW should pay 60 munition (and tech cost) for one, yes that sounds "way more balanced".
23 Nov 2022, 17:02 PM
#59
avatar of OKSpitfire

Posts: 126

JLI should have the threshold for critslowered to 40% health, like Paths. Also, they should lose the sprint. With these 2 adjustments, they'd be way more balanced


I'm probably going to get roasted for this but are JLI really that OP? Klement made a good point about Scavenge, I think the Overwatch doc just has too much good stuff in it, like most of the other meta doctrines.
23 Nov 2022, 23:58 PM
#60
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 777 | Subs: 1



I'm probably going to get roasted for this but are JLI really that OP? Klement made a good point about Scavenge, I think the Overwatch doc just has too much good stuff in it, like most of the other meta doctrines.


they are really good, its really not uncommon for them to be considered overpowered. I'm sure someone will point you their strengths and mention that you can still make obers later
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