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PPSh-41 assault pack

15 Sep 2022, 08:28 AM
#1
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2

Perhaps this is a meaningless topic because there will be no more patches. But lately I've been playing a lot with the Conscript PPSh-41 assault pack. And... it's a very strange ability. I compare it with the MP-40 from the Fire Storm doctrine and this is clearly not in favor of the PPSh-41. It comes at 2 CP as opposed to 0 CP, it doesn't give the frag grenade that the Conscripts need. But it gives a senseless "get down" ability, which is appropriate for the Guard with long-range fire but not for close combat PPSh-41.
15 Sep 2022, 08:46 AM
#2
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1515

I've played with PPSH conscripts from the advanced warfare commander (with the T34 85) and, I agree. They are strange.
One one hand, they are excellent point blank, especially since all cons have hoorah. Medium and long range? Forget about it.
Get down on CQC... strange ability. I have only ever used it to charge with conscripts up to anything and just drop down. Requires some micro but it's not bad overall. Can be decent.

Overall, cons with PPSH are quite strong, but only point blank. The repair kits are nice though. Last time I played it, was against 3x OKW on Rheine in a Custom lobby and I remember having a bunch of cons + T3485s and I used them to repair without having to rely on CEs. CEs repair behind, cons on the frontlines if the moment allows. Overall decent commander
15 Sep 2022, 09:13 AM
#3
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13478 | Subs: 1

Perhaps this is a meaningless topic because there will be no more patches. But lately I've been playing a lot with the Conscript PPSh-41 assault pack. And... it's a very strange ability. I compare it with the MP-40 from the Fire Storm doctrine and this is clearly not in favor of the PPSh-41.

Well different factions work differently.


It comes at 2 CP as opposed to 0 CP,

Conscripts are designed not to have have weapon upgrades Vg are designed to have ST44 thus the difference in CP. At CP 2 MP-40 would simply be useless.


it doesn't give the frag grenade that the Conscripts need.

The frag grenade is actually a nerf for VG who would be OP having both smoke grenade amd flame grenade since they would be to deal with any hmg in garrison.


But it gives a senseless "get down" ability, which is appropriate for the Guard with long-range fire but not for close combat PPSh-41.

Hit the ground is not related to PPSh it an ability available to all conscripts regardless if they are upgraded or not similar to camo/sprint for Ostheer.

In addition the bonus are different for Guards and conscripts.

The used to be to separate abilities that got merged into one but you are right they are a weird mix and they should had not be merge in the first place.
15 Sep 2022, 09:22 AM
#4
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Sep 2022, 09:13 AMVipper

Well different factions work differently.


Conscripts are designed not to have have weapon upgrades Vg are designed to have ST44 thus the difference in CP. At CP 2 MP-40 would simply be useless.


The frag grenade is actually a nerf for VG who would be OP having both smoke grenade amd flame grenade since they would be to deal with any hmg in garrison.


Hit the ground is not related to PPSh it an ability available to all conscripts regardless if they are upgraded or not similar to camo/sprint for Ostheer.

In addition the bonus are different for Guards and conscripts.

The used to be to separate abilities that got merged into one but you are right they are a weird mix and they should had not be merge in the first place.


The point is that PPSh-41s obviously don't cost 2 CP, they don't become quasi-elite infantry (on which the Soviet faction depends) that also comes at 2 CP, it doesn't give them strong bonuses at 2CP. It is worth thinking about changing the ability, it clearly does not deserve a whole ability slot from the commander. It can give PPSh-41 as a non-doctrinal alternative and replace PPSh-41 with DP-27.
15 Sep 2022, 11:12 AM
#5
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13478 | Subs: 1



The point is that PPSh-41s obviously don't cost 2 CP, they don't become quasi-elite infantry (on which the Soviet faction depends) that also comes at 2 CP, it doesn't give them strong bonuses at 2CP.

Actually PPsh has received multiple buffs and if it does not feel like "giving them strong bonuses" that has do with power creep. It even used to be CP 3.


It is worth thinking about changing the ability, it clearly does not deserve a whole ability slot from the commander. It can give PPSh-41 as a non-doctrinal alternative and replace PPSh-41 with DP-27.

LMG(smg) for conscript would be bad for a number reason:

Conscripts are already a very cost efficient unit, any more buff and one will not see Penal again.

Concentrate DPS on unit with high entity count give the advantage of being able to fight for long time with little DPS drop.

Combination of abilities like sand bags and ourh with lmg would make conscript even stronger.

It would mess the dynamic design of relative positioning of fight since both side would prefer static firefight in cover.

The only change imo need are separating the two abilities (goes for camo/sprint also) and change the ability to provide 6 PPsh while adjusting DPS.
15 Sep 2022, 11:42 AM
#6
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3112 | Subs: 2

The commander slot is screwed up. Hit the dirt was never worth the risk, especially not when your opponent has long range rifle grenades and bundles and your Conscript squad was never good in long range engagements in the first place. The bonuses this ability provides are fairly weak. I think balance team either did not have any better ideas or were not allowed to do more with the commander slot, so they just bundled two subpar abilities together into one, not really caring that there is no synergy and therefore not much increased value.
I liked the PPSh upgrade a couple of years ago, although it had its weaknesses. I think the reason why it is quite bad now is not really the upgrade itself or changes to Axis factions, but the map pool and Soviet changes. Speaking for 2v2 and 3v3, of the maps with short ranged engagements are gone. At the same time, Conscripts were very bad in the late game back then, so there was still an upgrade when getting them. Now the PPSh competes with the 7 men upgrade that Cons urgently needed for their late game. The lack of a real grenade also hurts the PPSh upgrade.
15 Sep 2022, 12:04 PM
#7
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2

The commander slot is screwed up. Hit the dirt was never worth the risk, especially not when your opponent has long range rifle grenades and bundles and your Conscript squad was never good in long range engagements in the first place. The bonuses this ability provides are fairly weak. I think balance team either did not have any better ideas or were not allowed to do more with the commander slot, so they just bundled two subpar abilities together into one, not really caring that there is no synergy and therefore not much increased value.
I liked the PPSh upgrade a couple of years ago, although it had its weaknesses. I think the reason why it is quite bad now is not really the upgrade itself or changes to Axis factions, but the map pool and Soviet changes. Speaking for 2v2 and 3v3, of the maps with short ranged engagements are gone. At the same time, Conscripts were very bad in the late game back then, so there was still an upgrade when getting them. Now the PPSh competes with the 7 men upgrade that Cons urgently needed for their late game. The lack of a real grenade also hurts the PPSh upgrade.


Well now it's definitely not worth it to be in 2CP it is, in the current situation it's only suitable as 0CP or as British Assault Section. I'm afraid it won't change anyway. Are patches planned at all? Or just wait for СoH3?
15 Sep 2022, 12:39 PM
#8
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

What really pisses me off, is the fact that Penals don't get anything from it, unlike weapon crate in airborn.

On top of that Soviet Reserve army doesn't even make sense. It has PPSH and supply drop. Supply drop allows you to kinda skip T2 and go for T1, but you also forced to go cons, to utilise ppsh. So you either end up with useless command ability if you go for cons+t2 or t1 penal + supply drop.
15 Sep 2022, 12:40 PM
#9
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3112 | Subs: 2

Well now it's definitely not worth it to be in 2CP it is, in the current situation it's only suitable as 0CP or as British Assault Section. I'm afraid it won't change anyway. Are patches planned at all? Or just wait for СoH3?

Not that I'd be any official, but there is nothing planned for CoH2 anymore. Would be highly strange behaviour to divert attention to the previous entry when the next iteration is coming out in 2 months (and obviously still needs a lot of work).

2CP timing is like ~6-7 minutes. Not hugely mistimed in my opinion. The timing of the upgrade also has nothing to do if they should be come almost an elite unit or not. Current Conscripts get their 7 men upgrade even later, this doesn't mean they should out-do all other infantry on the field including elites.
6-7 minutes is fairly normal for weapon upgrades to come unlock.

If there ever were a patch, there's two options: Either - as you suggested - remake them into a specialized call-in like squad or 0 CP upgrade, or keep the current timing and design with adjustments to make it really worth picking over the 7 men upgrade.
15 Sep 2022, 12:41 PM
#10
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1515



Well now it's definitely not worth it to be in 2CP it is, in the current situation it's only suitable as 0CP or as British Assault Section. I'm afraid it won't change anyway. Are patches planned at all? Or just wait for СoH3?


Nobody knows. If COH3 is a success, then maybe some legacy updates for people that won't play COH3 until it's polished out. You can count that there is no way in hell that a game as complex as COH3 (most nowadays games are much more complex than 15 years ago, so 99% of AAA games are released in somewhat buggy states, impossible to account for all setups/configurations) will be bug free and polished in terms of balance/performance/compatibility. So far the gameplay/mechanics/overall feel is, IMHO, on a high note, so I will probably buy the game to support Relic, but unless it's a big success, that they can put some funds aside for COH2 maintenance, don't count on further updates.
Maybe, and that's a big maybe, some extremely small balance hotfixes.

Cons, being generally close range units, wouldn't profit much from the DP MG. PPSH is not really that bad, even at 2CP. In teamgames, unless it's a map like Ettelbruck, you won't really go for it.
One thing I've seen done successfully though, in 3v3 was this:
Double mortar + PPSH cons. Mortar smokes for cons to close in. Rinse and repeat the whole game (also advanced WF commander) until T3485s.
15 Sep 2022, 12:45 PM
#11
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 599



Well now it's definitely not worth it to be in 2CP it is, in the current situation it's only suitable as 0CP or as British Assault Section. I'm afraid it won't change anyway. Are patches planned at all? Or just wait for СoH3?


Maybe CP1 but at start of game it is way to strong. They are significantly cheaper to make and reinforce with access to AT nades/sandbags and sprint. They also have the bonus of being a mixed model squad so even on approach with oorah! if they lose a model or 2 they will retain more than 80% of their DPS. As others have stated the main issue is map design favors long range squads and 7man cons are so good.

Tightrope has a video from commander patch, they can take on VG with STG consistently and even beat AssGrens unless they get the 6man upgrade.

Depending on game situation, at CP2 you might have a VET2 Con or close to it. Upgrading that squad first will give you a unit that on a per model basis would hit significantly harder than any Soviet CP2 unit due to the 40% acc.
15 Sep 2022, 12:48 PM
#12
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2


Not that I'd be any official, but there is nothing planned for CoH2 anymore. Would be highly strange behaviour to divert attention to the previous entry when the next iteration is coming out in 2 months (and obviously still needs a lot of work).

2CP timing is like ~6-7 minutes. Not hugely mistimed in my opinion. The timing of the upgrade also has nothing to do if they should be come almost an elite unit or not. Current Conscripts get their 7 men upgrade even later, this doesn't mean they should out-do all other infantry on the field including elites.
6-7 minutes is fairly normal for weapon upgrades to come unlock.

If there ever were a patch, there's two options: Either - as you suggested - remake them into a specialized call-in like squad or 0 CP upgrade, or keep the current timing and design with adjustments to make it really worth picking over the 7 men upgrade.


2CP is a lot when it comes to the opening game against OKW. Sturm Pioneers and Volkgrenadiers who have access to the STG-44 at the start are quite dominant against the Soviets.
15 Sep 2022, 13:25 PM
#13
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 599



Cons, being generally close range units, wouldn't profit much from the DP MG. PPSH is not really that bad, even at 2CP. In teamgames, unless it's a map like Ettelbruck, you won't really go for it.
One thing I've seen done successfully though, in 3v3 was this:
Double mortar + PPSH cons. Mortar smokes for cons to close in. Rinse and repeat the whole game (also advanced WF commander) until T3485s.


I am going to hard disagree with this. DP upgrade would be even better than the SVT upgrade for cons. At VET0 cons would do about 11.6 DPS at max range with over 50% of the DPS concentrated in one model and a 4/5 model buffer before needing to retreat. They also get the efficiency buff of LMG focus fire that could cause RNG to swing their way on approaching units. They would be even better than Grens as cons would be able to pick any spot on the map and make green cover. As an OST you would never take that battle unless you have your own green cover in the area/OKW would be fucked the moment DPs come on line.

Now comparing them to Penals max range- At Vet0 cons would do 11.6 DPS while Penals would do 10.8 DPS. As cons can tech AT nade they don't have the LV weakness along with sprint to relocate and sandbags to preserve MP. I would assume Cons would vet faster due to AT nade/flame nade boosting exp generation a bit.

Now at VET2 cons would do about 17.7 DPS where it would take until VET3 Penals to outclass them and it wouldn't be by much. Serelia has Penals doing about 20.6 which is using the old 30% acc at Vet3. I know its rough but subtracting 10% would drop it to 18.5. Aside from early bullying, there would be no point to Penals.

I used Serelia Guards Infantry numbers for DP DPS, for some reason Airborne Guards have a different starting acc compared to Guards so one is a mistake not sure which. Technically the Cons number is a little low as the get 40% acc not 30 with VEt

EDIT: Just realized that the DP is an upgrade for cons at all ranges not just long range LOL. Man their base gun is shitty.
15 Sep 2022, 14:39 PM
#14
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1515



I am going to hard disagree with this. DP upgrade would be even better than the SVT upgrade for cons. At VET0 cons would do about 11.6 DPS at max range with over 50% of the DPS concentrated in one model and a 4/5 model buffer before needing to retreat. They also get the efficiency buff of LMG focus fire that could cause RNG to swing their way on approaching units. They would be even better than Grens as cons would be able to pick any spot on the map and make green cover. As an OST you would never take that battle unless you have your own green cover in the area/OKW would be fucked the moment DPs come on line.

Now comparing them to Penals max range- At Vet0 cons would do 11.6 DPS while Penals would do 10.8 DPS. As cons can tech AT nade they don't have the LV weakness along with sprint to relocate and sandbags to preserve MP. I would assume Cons would vet faster due to AT nade/flame nade boosting exp generation a bit.

Now at VET2 cons would do about 17.7 DPS where it would take until VET3 Penals to outclass them and it wouldn't be by much. Serelia has Penals doing about 20.6 which is using the old 30% acc at Vet3. I know its rough but subtracting 10% would drop it to 18.5. Aside from early bullying, there would be no point to Penals.

I used Serelia Guards Infantry numbers for DP DPS, for some reason Airborne Guards have a different starting acc compared to Guards so one is a mistake not sure which. Technically the Cons number is a little low as the get 40% acc not 30 with VEt

EDIT: Just realized that the DP is an upgrade for cons at all ranges not just long range LOL. Man their base gun is shitty.

Ofc their base gun is shi**y. I've seen grens close in to close range against cons to be in yellow cover and win. Still, I wouldn't go for DP. It would have to come with certain drawbacks as a pure DP upgrade on them would be OP. So all in all, that DP upgrade would probably cripple them in some way. Cons as a whole would certainly not profit from them unless Relic decides to straight up buff cons.
15 Sep 2022, 15:14 PM
#15
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3112 | Subs: 2

2CP is a lot when it comes to the opening game against OKW. Sturm Pioneers and Volkgrenadiers who have access to the STG-44 at the start are quite dominant against the Soviets.

Current Soviets are already good enough to counter that (or endure it until they get their T7). The PPSh upgrade is supposed to give you an earlier power spike than you'd otherwise have. This can be timed as wanted. It could be the ability for a PPSh call in squad at the start or the current 2 CP upgrade or anything in between or later. All options are fine, but they all have to be tuned a bit differently. If e.g. 0 CP PPSh on Conscripts are the way to go, we talk about a different squad than what the 2 CP PPSh Conscript should be.

Also, isn't the StG44 upgrade also tied to an OKW truck being set up? But even if not, realistically, the first upgrade will be affordable around minute 4 because you don't have the muni for it. Afterwards, you generate enough muni for one upgrade roughly every 2 minutes. OKW won't have StGs for that long before you can upgrade PPSh.

The issue in my eyes is that they neither offer enough of an early spike nor a much different playstyle or options to forgo the strong 7 men upgrade. On current rather open maps, 7 men Conscripts are the better choice. And even on maps with more close range focus, there is a decent chance that 7 men Conscripts will do fine enough and you can pick a different commander, especially because PPSh Conscripts overlap with Shock Troops at this point.
15 Sep 2022, 22:58 PM
#16
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 658

Back when the game first came out in 2013 Hit The Dirt was a Godly ability. You could activate it at any time, it made you immune to suppression. Run close to MG-42, activate hit the dirt and then dps down the MG-42.

The ability was nerfed into the ground and then combined with PPSH which makes no sense in its current state.

The Current iteration of Hit The Dirt should be the Vet 1 ability for Conscripts replacing Tripwire Flare.

PPSH should be added to Combat Engineers as an alternative to the Flame Thrower making them similar to 4 man Royal Engineer/Sapper squads in terms of DPS (not very high) but enough to be noticable kind of like Pioneers.

The PPSH commander slot should be replaced with anything else.



16 Sep 2022, 14:12 PM
#17
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 786 | Subs: 1

Back when the game first came out in 2013 Hit The Dirt was a Godly ability. You could activate it at any time, it made you immune to suppression. Run close to MG-42, activate hit the dirt and then dps down the MG-42.





you can technically still do the same idea, just that you need two squads (one to distract it via hit the dirt)


I think that the ability should get a sort of buff, maybe removing the -20% accuracy penalty (or buffing the RA to -20% instead of -10%) if the squad is in green cover
19 Sep 2022, 15:56 PM
#18
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1333

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Sep 2022, 09:13 AMVipper

The frag grenade is actually a nerf for VG who would be OP having both smoke grenade amd flame grenade since they would be to deal with any hmg in garrison.


I would use the term "sidegrade". Nerf implies that there is no positive to having a burst damage nade instead of DoT, which I'm sure you will agree is not the case. Of course, not being able to deal with garrisoned HMGs as easily is a negative. A strength balanced out by a weakness; a sidegrade.
21 Sep 2022, 08:19 AM
#19
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 786 | Subs: 1



I would use the term "sidegrade". Nerf implies that there is no positive to having a burst damage nade instead of DoT, which I'm sure you will agree is not the case. Of course, not being able to deal with garrisoned HMGs as easily is a negative. A strength balanced out by a weakness; a sidegrade.


this isn't exactly an issue of the frag grenade being shitty, but rather "why do the Germans get a quick throwing, standard grenade range molotov, against low suppression/small firing arc machine guns?"

you trade DoT for instant burst, which is completely fitting for a squad that will be up in the enemy's face (and grenades still do reasonably good even vs garrisons, if you are close enough to throw an incendiary, you might as well dance around the building)
21 Sep 2022, 09:14 AM
#20
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13478 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Sep 2022, 08:19 AMKatukov


this isn't exactly an issue of the frag grenade being shitty, but rather "why do the Germans get a quick throwing, standard grenade range molotov, against low suppression/small firing arc machine guns?"

or in other word why the grass greener on the other side of the fence.

Why is that MP-40 VG will lose 20%/40% of the close DPS when they lose their first 2 entity while the ppsh conscripts will only lose 7%/14%?

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Sep 2022, 08:19 AMKatukov

you trade DoT for instant burst, which is completely fitting for a squad that will be up in the enemy's face (and grenades still do reasonably good even vs garrisons, if you are close enough to throw an incendiary, you might as well dance around the building)

Isn't ourah more fitting for an SMG troops that allow them to get faster in the face of the enemy.

Would you rather have MP-40 VG having sprint and keep their incendiary grenades?

Mp-40 VG are simply not op and neither are PPsh conscripts UP.
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