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russian armor

since we are adding prototype tanks in game

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4 Oct 2022, 11:28 AM
#301
avatar of OrangePest

Posts: 568 | Subs: 1

I hope when the first coh3 expansion comes out it adds a soviet faction. And there be another mega thread about people complaining about authenticity.
4 Oct 2022, 14:00 PM
#302
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197



Just for the record 20 x 0 is 0. Wich is the contribution of some niche units such as the st to the war. Same as the bp namely 0.

it has an interesting history you said, thats subjective.
It contributed next to nothing. It was insignificant or rather irrelevant in the war. Statisticly speaking there is no real difference between that and a prototype.

The criteria of it needs to have fired a shot in a battle (wich is the argument being made) is a very weak one at best.
And even weaker is that then historical accuracy takes a big step back for "gameplay" to step up.

If one goes full retard on historical accuracy, be consistant and and stick with it. And dont cherry pick things when it suits you.


The reason I wrote this was to dispell the line of reasoning "ST was made in 20 pieces -> it's niche -> it's overrepresented -> coh is fiction" which is wanky at best.

Anyways, are you for or against it?

Because 99% of people talking for it just want to stick it to wehraboos not because they truly believe it.
4 Oct 2022, 14:02 PM
#303
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197

Relic has re-written the history of vehicles before. Somehow we got a stock KT at 500 made and a doctrinal and now mostly relegated IS2 that is an infantry only wagon in a couple doctrines with some 3,000 built.

Why? Because they don't care about numbers.

For gameplay reasons Relic don't care about numbers or a units failed history in combat like the sturmtiger. They want interesting units. Again within historical fiction, what this product there isn't a special separation of the fiction of a useful sturmtiger and a deployed Black Prince both things didn't occur.

Relic is welcome to make the same fictional choices in their product. As others have pointed out this new shake of fiction sprinkles isn't going to spoil the fiction layer cake of COH 2 whose layers include KT/JT, useful sutrmtiger, stock IR halftracks, invincible stuka aircraft etc..

They don't care, and don't need to care about this tailored gatekeeping of historical (insert label trying to create new genre of fiction where prototypes are the line) because they have done this in all previous iterations of the franchise, created fictional events to make an interesting product.


It's amazing how you can continuously write the same bullshit and not get tired.

KT being doctrinal was 100% a gameplay choice to give OKW a fallback unit in case they lost Schwere HQ (and thus they could not produce neither tanks nor elite inf) and still makes for some interesting tactics.

How that can apply to BP, a unit that fought exactly 0 times only you can understand and nobody else.
4 Oct 2022, 14:15 PM
#304
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197

[code][/code]
can some1 post the BP alternatives?


Churchill Mark VII which was especially designed to counter Tiger I tanks having 50% more front plate armor along with the traditional 7.5cm Ordinance ATG. Could be easily converted to Croc if that's your thing. These were the tanks that pushed Rommel out of normandy and into continental Germany.

You could even go Mark IX (which never fought any serious battles) and I would be ok.

Hell, if you wanna go very deep and unicorn-y you could try to resurrect the Sentinel which never fought in any front or the Achilles.

Seriously there are so many tanks you could add that it's insane they chose BP.

And those I mentioned only scratch the bare surface, since I am at work rn.
4 Oct 2022, 15:26 PM
#305
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



The reason I wrote this was to dispell the line of reasoning "ST was made in 20 pieces -> it's niche -> it's overrepresented -> coh is fiction" which is wanky at best.

Anyways, are you for or against it?

Because 99% of people talking for it just want to stick it to wehraboos not because they truly believe it.


I dont mind the bp being in coh3. I also dont mind if another churchill with a beefed gun was added instead. I am just very happy that the bp will probably relieve allies of td spamming, wich most do not enjoy, axis and allies alike.

Coh isent fiction and its also not purely historical. It takes some liberties with history to make it interesting. See the overabundend axis heavies because lots of people get a boner because of them.
4 Oct 2022, 15:54 PM
#306
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 545

I don't think many people here are trying to "stick it to wheraboos" but if folks are going to argue the KT/JT/ST aren't overrepresented then id say you are fighting reality not being identified as a wheraboo. Thier representation is indeed fiction.

The sturmtiger is a failure in combat history, There isn't any record of it forcing battalions into retreat. No record of it wiping out entire platoons, striking fear into American/allied troops hearts. that's a pretty big fiction compared to its gameplay role where it does these things.

I think what some people here are trying to point out regardless of some axis and allies contest is that these fictions have occurred many times prior. This one is somehow earth shattering.

I do think its a pretty niche crowd who cant concede the idea that COH has taken these liberties in fiction before and perhaps it makes this discussion interesting on another level. I can see how the folks in that camp would have trouble with authenticity if they thought the game had been fairly factual and faithful to history up to this point, which would be concerning.
4 Oct 2022, 16:35 PM
#307
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1

I don't think many people here are trying to "stick it to wheraboos" but if folks are going to argue the KT/JT/ST aren't overrepresented then id say you are fighting reality not being identified as a wheraboo. Thier representation is indeed fiction.

The sturmtiger is a failure in combat history, There isn't any record of it forcing battalions into retreat. No record of it wiping out entire platoons, striking fear into American/allied troops hearts. that's a pretty big fiction compared to its gameplay role where it does these things.


I think what some people here are trying to point out regardless of some axis and allies contest is that these fictions have occurred many times prior. This one is somehow earth shattering.

I do think its a pretty niche crowd who cant concede the idea that COH has taken these liberties in fiction before and perhaps it makes this discussion interesting on another level. I can see how the folks in that camp would have trouble with authenticity if they thought the game had been fairly factual and faithful to history up to this point, which would be concerning.

The ST was not designed for "forcing battalion into retreat" it was designed fire support vs enemy strong position or in urban terrain.

As you can see in wikipedia though there at least one record of "wiping entire platoons":

"During this action, one of the Sturmtigers in Sturmmörserkompanie 1001 near Düren and Euskirchen allegedly hit a group of stationary Sherman tanks in a village with a 380mm round, resulting in nearly all the Shermans being put out of action, and their crews killed or wounded. This is the only tank-on-tank combat a Sturmtiger is ever recorded engaging in."
4 Oct 2022, 16:38 PM
#308
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2269 | Subs: 1

[code][/code]

Churchill Mark VII which was especially designed to counter Tiger I tanks having 50% more front plate armor along with the traditional 7.5cm Ordinance ATG. Could be easily converted to Croc if that's your thing. These were the tanks that pushed Rommel out of normandy and into continental Germany.

You could even go Mark IX (which never fought any serious battles) and I would be ok.

Hell, if you wanna go very deep and unicorn-y you could try to resurrect the Sentinel which never fought in any front or the Achilles.

Seriously there are so many tanks you could add that it's insane they chose BP.

And those I mentioned only scratch the bare surface, since I am at work rn.


from a dev perspective:

the problem with all these is they a too hard to differentiate when normies are playing. The gun is too small.

it has too few differences to normal churchill which normies would be able to recognize at first glance.

They are also used to mobile crap which is based on neon colors and finger sized buttons.

so the Black prince is recognized at first glance as monster churchill.

the other alternatives like the big gun achilles can't be selled as heavy tank.
4 Oct 2022, 17:20 PM
#309
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1



from a dev perspective:

the problem with all these is they a too hard to differentiate when normies are playing. The gun is too small.


This is honestly so-so argument. Firstly unit could use different skin (the same way elite tiger was made) as well as additional details could be added (relic already flexed with new ways of attaching models to one other).

I mean, the most innocent reason could be that, Relic just listed to whines about how allies never truly had a super heavy tank, then just opened wiki and selected fist super heavy they've found.

But I doubt this is a reson.

4 Oct 2022, 17:22 PM
#310
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 545

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Oct 2022, 16:35 PMVipper

The ST was not designed for "forcing battalion into retreat" it was designed fire support vs enemy strong position or in urban terrain.

As you can see in wikipedia though there at least one record of "wiping entire platoons":

"During this action, one of the Sturmtigers in Sturmmörserkompanie 1001 near Düren and Euskirchen allegedly hit a group of stationary Sherman tanks in a village with a 380mm round, resulting in nearly all the Shermans being put out of action, and their crews killed or wounded. This is the only tank-on-tank combat a Sturmtiger is ever recorded engaging in."


Lets be generous and drop the word allegedly for this record. To call the units combat history successful was again a large adventure in fiction. One alleged combat venture a success record or combat legend does not make. Hence the very discussion on how a units life was blown up into historical fiction, very generous treatment considering they had to record the one time it hit something that wasn't a city albeit allegedly.

Also in the sentence above it does mention a company of 7 sturmtigers failing to hit Remagen bridge, if that may lend an ear to the luck or legitimacy of the alleged hit. Again a generous fiction to make it as accurate and powerful as it is when it was likely luck or perhaps didn't occur.

Note : The Wiki for the Sherman company hit still needs citation on Wiki, hence has no written record provided on the Wiki.
4 Oct 2022, 17:22 PM
#311
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 658

I hope when the first coh3 expansion

Rather see COH 3 fail and they continue development on COH1 or COH2 instead
4 Oct 2022, 17:50 PM
#312
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2


Rather see COH 3 fail and they continue development on COH1 or COH2 instead


Right now my friend and I were discussing this. He is in many CoH communities, and he says that out of his 70 CoH friends, only one has pre-ordered the game. People don't like where the series is going.
4 Oct 2022, 17:56 PM
#313
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 658



Right now my friend and I were discussing this. He is in many CoH communities, and he says that out of his 70 CoH friends, only one has pre-ordered the game. People don't like where the series is going.



Half my friends list plays COH2 (got about 400 steam friends) and not a single person pre-ordered the game. The general consensus is wait for Steam sale because the only new feature that they added to the game is the ability to pause while making the graphics and UI worse.
4 Oct 2022, 18:00 PM
#314
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2




Half my friends list plays COH2 (got about 400 steam friends) and not a single person pre-ordered the game. The general consensus is wait for Steam sale because the only new feature that they added to the game is the ability to pause while making the graphics and UI worse.


Yes, even with lousy animation. When I watched the trailer for the US faction and saw the animation of the paratroopers, my first association was that they were plastic soldiers and their parachutes were plastic, no weight of a soldier.
4 Oct 2022, 18:46 PM
#315
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 658



Yes, even with lousy animation. When I watched the trailer for the US faction and saw the animation of the paratroopers, my first association was that they were plastic soldiers and their parachutes were plastic, no weight of a soldier.


The worst part is, they are giving us extremely inferior graphics (plastic soldiers with terrible animations and borderlands filter) and the game will most likely have less FPS than COH2.
4 Oct 2022, 18:51 PM
#316
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2



The worst part is, they are giving us extremely inferior graphics (plastic soldiers with terrible animations and borderlands filter) and the game will most likely have less FPS than COH2.


In the alpha test, I had a disgusting performance, much worse than CoH2. Yes, I have a much better computer now, but not everyone can afford a more powerful computer, and even my friends in the Alpha test with a more powerful PC had significant performance problems. And this is against the backdrop of not very pleasant and outstanding graphics.
4 Oct 2022, 21:32 PM
#317
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1



Lets be generous and drop the word allegedly for this record. To call the units combat history successful was again a large adventure in fiction. One alleged combat venture a success record or combat legend does not make. Hence the very discussion on how a units life was blown up into historical fiction, very generous treatment considering they had to record the one time it hit something that wasn't a city albeit allegedly.

Yet this a record and while you have provided none.


Also in the sentence above it does mention a company of 7 sturmtigers failing to hit Remagen bridge, if that may lend an ear to the luck or legitimacy of the alleged hit. Again a generous fiction to make it as accurate and powerful as it is when it was likely luck or perhaps didn't occur.

Note : The Wiki for the Sherman company hit still needs citation on Wiki, hence has no written record provided on the Wiki.

A bridge needs a direct hit to be damaged, soldiers or tank crews do not need to be hit directly with a 376 kgr explosive round to be taken out of combat.

As I already have pointed out feel free to provide your own information that back your claim that ST was "failure in combat history" because. so far you have provided nothing to back up your claim.
4 Oct 2022, 23:41 PM
#318
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 545

The one success that's out there is this alleged account it hit Sherman's, and after looking at it from the American cavalry as foggy accounts of it are it may have been because they hit them after missing another target not by targeting them at all.

I'm not providing any successful records of the ST as one there is only really this one alleged account and two, others don't exist so that's a pretty poor combat history. Could also be a misunderstanding of what kind of record I'm talking about, like a record of good attendance, as in a consecutive record of success. The kind of record that earned some vehicles more factual reputations.

The ST doesn't have a consecutive record of success, which is what I'm referring to by a record of poor performance, not an individual account. So its depiction again, is highly fictional. So my point still stands that relic takes fictional liberties where they please for gameplay, something they've stating in their own development commentary.
5 Oct 2022, 00:50 AM
#319
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 658



In the alpha test, I had a disgusting performance, much worse than CoH2. Yes, I have a much better computer now, but not everyone can afford a more powerful computer, and even my friends in the Alpha test with a more powerful PC had significant performance problems. And this is against the backdrop of not very pleasant and outstanding graphics.


COH 1 with 4k Texture Packs installed look 10,000x better than COH3 and give like 400+FPS while COH3 looks worse than COH 1 Mobile and has like 10 FPS. Granted COH2 ran like garbage during beta but it only improved by like 20% from Beta to Launch. If a similar improvement happens with COH3 it will still run like complete garbage while looking way worse.

COH2 could be forgiven though due to THQ going out of business and the struggle that Relic had during that time period. They had plenty of time (almost 10 years) to develop a new engine for COH3 and instead we get COH2 with a Borderlands filter applied on top that is still stuck on 1 CPU core and 4 gigs of ram while games like Sins of a Solar Empire 2 will use 16 CPU cores and its made by a small indie company. Relic should be ashamed of themselves for trying to push out COH3 in the state that it is in.


Sins of a Solar Empire 2 - 16 CPU cores
5 Oct 2022, 07:28 AM
#320
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1

The one success that's out there is this alleged account it hit Sherman's, and after looking at it from the American cavalry as foggy accounts of it are it may have been because they hit them after missing another target not by targeting them at all.

I'm not providing any successful records of the ST as one there is only really this one alleged account and two, others don't exist so that's a pretty poor combat history. Could also be a misunderstanding of what kind of record I'm talking about, like a record of good attendance, as in a consecutive record of success. The kind of record that earned some vehicles more factual reputations.

The ST doesn't have a consecutive record of success, which is what I'm referring to by a record of poor performance, not an individual account. So its depiction again, is highly fictional. So my point still stands that relic takes fictional liberties where they please for gameplay, something they've stating in their own development commentary.

(In simple English you have nothing to back the claim that ST was a failure)

A entity in COH2 can be hit by 8 rounds before dying and if injured by a number of bullets it can be magically healed in a few seconds. That is how game are implemented.

That is quite different from introducing a unit that was never used in game about WWII. It is a simply as that and you simply have to accept the fact that are player who do not like that.
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