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since we are adding prototype tanks in game

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30 Sep 2022, 17:40 PM
#261
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 242


I guess you agree then that the availability of the Sturmtiger and the BP will be roughly equal. So, it follows that the only other thing we can look at is the timeline. In which case the BP is more immersion breaking than the ST. The BP probably isn’t limited to one, so I don’t know why you’re comparing your ideal scenario for the BP with the few months that the ST was broken. I’m not interested in what you think should happen but what is happening in reality. Right now, the ST and BP are going to have more or less the same availability. Even if the ST was a bit more common to see, it did fight in the period and place on which OKW is based. It has every right to be more common than the BP. The Pershing is also a rarely seen vehicle in COH2 but you still think it is on the level of the BP.

I am comparing the immersion of the entire games, not just the units included. If tanks being too fast for soldiers to dodge crushing doesnt break immersion for u, i dont see why the BP does. If a flare providing any kind of visual assistance in broad daylight doesnt break immersion, why does the BP?

U can say its different all u want, the result is the same. Coh2 was not historically immersive by any means


I guess nobody ever though of not overbuffing units. What a brilliant idea.

Well it happened constantly in coh2 so its a valid concern to bring up.....


Implying other options aren’t viable right now because of the ST and JT, is such a laughable statement.

Then its a good thing i didnt say that. I said that i was talking about the specific patch that launched ST meta:
Another way u limit it is by making other options viable, and avoid doing things like overbuffing ST (which caused the temporary period where u saw one every game)

Do u know what the word temporary means? I was not talking about right now for ST

JT and elefant on the other hand clearly dominate team games. Thats not even debateable, the stats literally back it up. Breakthrough and jaeger armor are the most popular commanders in 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4...https://coh2stats.com/stats?range=month&statsSource=all&type=2v2&race=wermacht&timeStamp=1661990400


You can limit certain vehicles to one but that doesn’t mean you won’t see them every game.

OF course it doesnt, but it does require ppl to be much more careful with them. Rather than being able to replace them easily which happens all the time in team games due to resource float


I’m trying to figure out at roughly what point you considered something to be too inauthentic for COH.

ANd ive been wondering the same thing about u this whole time. U have no issue with tanks having absurd speed, flares providing reconaissance, the brits fighting on the eastern front, planes being able to track vehicles as if they have targeting computers. But suddenly a prototype shows up and NOW the game is inauthentic? That makes no sense at all


You can duck out of the example of little boy and fat man but the point obviously wasn’t about balance.

Ur point isnt about balance, but mine is. I care more about competitive balance than i do about history for the video game. THat doesnt mean history is unimportant, its just a secondary concern to balance...

30 Sep 2022, 17:43 PM
#262
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 242



why not?

I mean if we are to go full retard we could say that Germans pioneered the use of heavy all purpose combat vehicles with the Tiger chassis, USA followed suit and ended up with Abrams.

Since Abrams takes inspiration from WW2 it should be added in COH3.

why not?

Cuz they didnt even start physically building one until the 70s.... Of course BP is a stretch and unrealistic. Its just singificantly less unrealistic than an abrams....


that's about gameplay balancing choice... completely offtopic

Lol u a moderator now? Thats funny
30 Sep 2022, 18:29 PM
#263
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2114 | Subs: 2


Cuz they didnt even start physically building one until the 70s.... Of course BP is a stretch and unrealistic. Its just singificantly less unrealistic than an abrams....


Lol u a moderator now? Thats funny


Let's finally get the hell out of what's okay and what's not okay:
- A BP who has never been to the War is okay
- M1 Abrams whose appearance is as realistic as a BP in a war is not okay
- If the IS-7, which was produced in 1946, was added to the game, would it be okay?
- Or ARL-44 for Free France. The number 44 which means that the tank was designed in 1944 but started being produced in 1948 and has a World War I design, is that okay?

Where do we draw the line which tanks that were not in the war are OK and which are not.
30 Sep 2022, 18:55 PM
#264
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 242



Let's finally get the hell out of what's okay and what's not okay:
- A BP who has never been to the War is okay
- M1 Abrams whose appearance is as realistic as a BP in a war is not okay
- If the IS-7, which was produced in 1946, was added to the game, would it be okay?
- Or ARL-44 for Free France. The number 44 which means that the tank was designed in 1944 but started being produced in 1948 and has a World War I design, is that okay?

Where do we draw the line which tanks that were not in the war are OK and which are not.

Being completed while the war was going on works for me... I rly shouldnt have to explain the difference between 1945 and the 1970s, i would hope thats relatively obvious

But answer my question? Where do u draw the line for authenticity?

Its okay for tanks to be portrayed completely innacurately, as long as the models were real? Their speed and handling can be on par with modern cars, the battles they are fighting in can be completely fabricated, they can be reliably lazered from the sky by planes, they can be spotted by a flare launched from a mortar, but as long as the names and appearance are correct its still considered "authentic"?

That makes zero sense to me. The BP breaks immersion for u, but how the hell were u ever immersed in the first place???
30 Sep 2022, 19:08 PM
#265
avatar of Fargoth88

Posts: 28


I am comparing the immersion of the entire games, not just the units included. If tanks being too fast for soldiers to dodge crushing doesnt break immersion for u, i dont see why the BP does. If a flare providing any kind of visual assistance in broad daylight doesnt break immersion, why does the BP?

U can say its different all u want, the result is the same. Coh2 was not historically immersive by any means


Well it happened constantly in coh2 so its a valid concern to bring up.....


Then its a good thing i didnt say that. I said that i was talking about the specific patch that launched ST meta:

Do u know what the word temporary means? I was not talking about right now for ST

JT and elefant on the other hand clearly dominate team games. Thats not even debateable, the stats literally back it up. Breakthrough and jaeger armor are the most popular commanders in 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4...https://coh2stats.com/stats?range=month&statsSource=all&type=2v2&race=wermacht&timeStamp=1661990400


OF course it doesnt, but it does require ppl to be much more careful with them. Rather than being able to replace them easily which happens all the time in team games due to resource float


ANd ive been wondering the same thing about u this whole time. U have no issue with tanks having absurd speed, flares providing reconaissance, the brits fighting on the eastern front, planes being able to track vehicles as if they have targeting computers. But suddenly a prototype shows up and NOW the game is inauthentic? That makes no sense at all


Ur point isnt about balance, but mine is. I care more about competitive balance than i do about history for the video game. THat doesnt mean history is unimportant, its just a secondary concern to balance...



If you look at top 200 in 2v2, overwatch is actually the most picked commander. In all 1v1 games Luftwaffe ground forces is most picked but that commander isn’t exactly meta either. This is the level you are roughly playing at, so it is way more applicable. There is a 1/5 change breakthrough is picked, if you’re facing OKW at all, which doesn’t have to be the case. Then the game also has to reach to point for your opponent to actually get a chance to deploy it. Choosing breakthrough also doesn’t mean that you go JT. So, I highly doubt you see one every game. You might encounter one every 1 in 10 games or so if we’re being generous. I guess the elefant is there but that’s not exactly a late war wunderwaffe.

Since you didn’t bother answering the question, I will. To start off, I already said I didn’t like the US and UK fighting on the eastern front. My dislike for it is even greater than the BP. Seeing people who want to see soviets in COH3 makes me want to cut my eyeballs out. Flares providing recon isn’t anymore insane the having the entire map covered in some sort of fog. And I don’t actually see the plane, I just hear it. None of these things have anything to do with faction design though. How liberties with mechanics are related to liberties in faction design is impossible to say. Factions don’t typically have units that were developed two years after fighting on that theater ended. Up to a year can be fine but 2 year definitely not. If it was absolutely necessary to include the BP, I wouldn’t be against it. It’s inclusion isn’t necessary though.

Liberties with game mechanics can probably go way further since they enhance the immersion and don't really matter since you're playing a game anyway. That’s why the entire map is covered in a weird fog, every unit has an invisible radio and my small hq building has hundreds of reinforcements waiting in it. It’s similar to war thunder which is idiot as a whole but still tries to portray the individual units as accurately as possible. COH can have really silly mechanics (to a certain degree) but still do its best to give the factions gear that they actually used as much as possible. Since it is possible to do Brits without the BP and they didn’t use it, it probably needs to go.

It's the same for AoE 4. The general mechanics and structure are not realistic but there still goes care in each civilization. It's probably the same for any historical game. An almost idiotic set of rules with components in them that should adhere to history as much as possible.

I don’t need to know all of that for you though. I’m just curious to roughly what extent individual factions need to have actually used gear.

‘Another way u limit it is by making other options viable, and avoid doing things like overbuffing ST (which caused the temporary period where u saw one every game)’. This statement is heavily implying that other options weren’t viable at some point in the game’s lifespan. Making other options viable implies that they weren’t at some point.
30 Sep 2022, 19:09 PM
#266
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2114 | Subs: 2


Being completed while the war was going on works for me... I rly shouldnt have to explain the difference between 1945 and the 1970s, i would hope thats relatively obvious

But answer my question? Where do u draw the line for authenticity?

Its okay for tanks to be portrayed completely innacurately, as long as the models were real? Their speed and handling can be on par with modern cars, the battles they are fighting in can be completely fabricated, they can be reliably lazered from the sky by planes, they can be spotted by a flare launched from a mortar, but as long as the names and appearance are correct its still considered "authentic"?

That makes zero sense to me. The BP breaks immersion for u, but how the hell were u ever immersed in the first place???


Well, if the 1945 prototype is in fine. I think we have no problems if the USSR has a T-54 which was tested in April 1945.
30 Sep 2022, 19:28 PM
#267
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 242


Since you didn’t bother answering the question, I will.

Which question? I have responded to all of ur points

Built in 1945 is my cutoff. I would prefer the prototypes be less common than the things that actually fought, but that is secondary to competitive balance for me


To start off, I already said I didn’t like the US and UK fighting on the eastern front. My dislike for it is even greater than the BP.

Then whats the real problem here????? This is my entire point, if something that is commonplace in coh2 bothers u more than the BP, why are u even complaining about the BP?

If this was a new franchise that was trying to be authentic, i would understand ur point. But its not and it isnt....

If you look at top 200 in 2v2, overwatch is actually the most picked commander. In all 1v1 games Luftwaffe ground forces is most picked but that commander isn’t exactly meta either. This is the level you are roughly playing at, so it is way more applicable. There is a 1/5 change breakthrough is picked, if you’re facing OKW at all, which doesn’t have to be the case. Then the game also has to reach to point for your opponent to actually get a chance to deploy it. Choosing breakthrough also doesn’t mean that you go JT. So, I highly doubt you see one every game. You might encounter one every 1 in 10 games or so if we’re being generous. I guess the elefant is there but that’s not exactly a late war wunderwaffe.

I have been top200 in 2v2 multiple times, im barely out of it currently with sovs. U see JT and elefant much more than 1 out of 10 times, thats not generous at all
30 Sep 2022, 19:34 PM
#268
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 807



But answer my question? Where do u draw the line for authenticity?



any tank used in battle during ww2, can be in a ww2 game. There is your line in case it hasn't been clear enough for the last 100 posts
30 Sep 2022, 19:36 PM
#269
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 242

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Sep 2022, 19:34 PMAlphrum


any tank used in battle during ww2, can be in a ww2 game. There is your line in case it hasn't been clear enough for the last 100 posts

But u dont care at all about how that tank is portrayed, thats my point

Doesnt matter that it has a forumla 1 engine, and is fast enough offroad to crush entire squads? Apparently not

Doesnt matter to u that these tanks appear in all sorts of fictional battles on fronts they never particpated in?
30 Sep 2022, 19:56 PM
#270
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 242



Well, if the 1945 prototype is in fine. I think we have no problems if the USSR has a T-54 which was tested in April 1945.

Okay lets say they add the USSR to coh3. R u gonna complain when u see t34/76s roaming around the desert in northern africa....? Let me guess, thats still realistic enough....
30 Sep 2022, 19:59 PM
#271
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 807


But u dont care at all about how that tank is portrayed, thats my point

Doesnt matter that it has a forumla 1 engine, and is fast enough offroad to crush entire squads? Apparently not

Doesnt matter to u that these tanks appear in all sorts of fictional battles on fronts they never particpated in?


no i dont, because for balance reasons. This is a game not a simulation
30 Sep 2022, 20:00 PM
#272
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 242

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Sep 2022, 19:59 PMAlphrum

no i dont, because for balance reasons. This is a game not a simulation

My point exactly...
30 Sep 2022, 20:27 PM
#273
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 807


My point exactly...


yeah and a game set in ww2 will have certain limitations when you decide whats going to be in the game. Coh2 had already stretched it enough with ostwinds/ST's etc. but BP is on another level of ludicrousness
30 Sep 2022, 20:30 PM
#274
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 242

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Sep 2022, 20:27 PMAlphrum


yeah and a game set in ww2 will have certain limitations when you decide whats going to be in the game. Coh2 had already stretched it enough with ostwinds/ST's etc. but BP is on another level of ludicrousness

Maybe compared to those units specifically, but not to the previous games overall. Brits and soviets fighting together on eastern front is just as weird for me imo. Same goes for offroad tank speed, plane peformance, etc

30 Sep 2022, 20:33 PM
#275
avatar of Fargoth88

Posts: 28


Which question? I have responded to all of ur points

Built in 1945 is my cutoff. I would prefer the prototypes be less common than the things that actually fought, but that is secondary to competitive balance for me


Then whats the real problem here????? This is my entire point, if something that is commonplace in coh2 bothers u more than the BP, why are u even complaining about the BP?

If this was a new franchise that was trying to be authentic, i would understand ur point. But its not and it isnt....

I have been top200 in 2v2 multiple times, im barely out of it currently with sovs. U see JT and elefant much more than 1 out of 10 times, thats not generous at all


I can play a game even though I dislike things about it. Both bother me but I can’t get entire factions removed at this point. Just because the previous game had immersion breaking things doesn’t mean the new game can’t be better. Both of them go too far, so I will attack both of them. It’s not like I am either fully immersed or completely taken out of the game to the point I can’t play it.

Your answer is either a weak cop out or just really weird then. If those are the only two requirements, then making factions based on real armies is pretty much dead. You can have that opinion but that’s probably not what most of the community wants and what Relic is going for (besides including the BP). The large crowd that wanted the DAK for years probably wouldn’t like it if they had a King Tiger or a Panther no matter how rarely those would be encountered while playing. But that’s what you’re okay with apparently as long as they’re sufficiently rare.

Those stats don’t even show what is picked but what is in people’s loadout btw. I guess your anecdotal experience goes against mine them because I usually see overwatch in most games I play and in nearly every 2v2 cast. The Elefant is a rare vehicle but not exactly wunderwaffe material. I usually lose games whenever my teammate goes for a JT.

I guess authentic WW2 games don’t really exist then since they all take some liberties for gameplay purposes. Maybe you can prove me wrong but I can’t think of a single game that hasn’t taken liberties that don’t always make sense. It’s more complicated than either beings authentic or being a WW2 fiction.
30 Sep 2022, 20:53 PM
#276
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 242


It’s not like I am either fully immersed or completely taken out of the game to the point I can’t play it.

Then what's the problem? At this point i have no clue what ur problem is

U concede that coh2 already has even less realistic elements. That is the central point of my argument...


Your answer is either a weak cop out or just really weird then. If those are the only two requirements, then making factions based on real armies is pretty much dead. You can have that opinion but that’s probably not what most of the community wants and what Relic is going for (besides including the BP). The large crowd that wanted the DAK for years probably wouldn’t like it if they had a King Tiger or a Panther no matter how rarely those would be encountered while playing. But that’s what you’re okay with apparently as long as they’re sufficiently rare.

If u don't think that's what relic is going for then why the fuck r u so worried about the BP??? That's completely self contradictory

I would prefer the armies not to be made up entirely of prototype units either. So far that doesnt seem to be whats happening. It seems like there's 1 prototype unit. Is that enough to make me complain? Not really

R u worried about trickle down fiction or something? Like Relic is going to get addicted to proto units and once they start they can't stop? I find that silly


I guess authentic WW2 games don’t really exist then since they all take some liberties for gameplay purposes. Maybe you can prove me wrong but I can’t think of a single game that hasn’t taken liberties that don’t always make sense. It’s more complicated than either beings authentic or being a WW2 fiction.

Im not concerned about other games, were talking about the standard across coh games. U have already admitted that US and brits on eastern front is more absurd than BP, so i dont see how my opinion is so confusing to u
30 Sep 2022, 21:47 PM
#277
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1006 | Subs: 1


Then whats the real problem here????? This is my entire point, if something that is commonplace in coh2 bothers u more than the BP, why are u even complaining about the BP?


Thing is, CoH2 already made a bad example in this regard. Starting from over-using rare units, ending up completely breaking the immersion by adding poorly added USF\OKW\UKF, especially considering there was no need to do it, because OKW might as-well have been joined forces of Axis representing Hungry\Italy\Spain and so on. Soviets could have easily received faction similar to PE, being Guards and why not.

Ever core factions mechanics could have been the same. Be it Sov.Guards as a reskin for USF for example.

But at very least Relic tried to keep game some what realistic during release and messed it up later.

BP on the other hand already pointing out on release that "creative freedom" will most likely be a common thing, which in itself can lead to a lot of BS.
30 Sep 2022, 22:05 PM
#278
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 242


BP on the other hand already pointing out on release that "creative freedom" will most likely be a common thing, which in itself can lead to a lot of BS.

Id at least like to get a chance to actually play the factions more before i decide the walls are crumbling down because of 1 tank. Im more concerned about the lack of MP info in general than i am about the mere inclusion of the BP
1 Oct 2022, 07:39 AM
#279
avatar of OKSpitfire

Posts: 125


Id at least like to get a chance to actually play the factions more before i decide the walls are crumbling down because of 1 tank. Im more concerned about the lack of MP info in general than i am about the mere inclusion of the BP


Correct. So many assumptions being made about units and lots of doom and gloom from the usual people about what the meta will be.
1 Oct 2022, 11:02 AM
#280
avatar of Fargoth88

Posts: 28


Then what's the problem? At this point i have no clue what ur problem is

U concede that coh2 already has even less realistic elements. That is the central point of my argument...


If u don't think that's what relic is going for then why the fuck r u so worried about the BP??? That's completely self contradictory

I would prefer the armies not to be made up entirely of prototype units either. So far that doesnt seem to be whats happening. It seems like there's 1 prototype unit. Is that enough to make me complain? Not really

R u worried about trickle down fiction or something? Like Relic is going to get addicted to proto units and once they start they can't stop? I find that silly


Im not concerned about other games, were talking about the standard across coh games. U have already admitted that US and brits on eastern front is more absurd than BP, so i dont see how my opinion is so confusing to u


Because there are no soviets in COH3, so its not something we have to worry about. If there were Soviets in COH3, then I wouldn’t mind the BP. I already stated I would at least like the individual factions to represent what they’re based on to a certain degree. The DAK is the opposing faction of the Brits in COH3 and they don’t have weird 1945 gear, so why should the British? There is literally no reason for including this vehicle at all.

I said I think that is what Relic is going for. It’s pretty obvious they try to get some things right. All the other gear the Brits and DAK have is significantly more accurate than the BP. Expect for the Walking Stuka maybe but the vehicle itself was used. You stated you don’t like the heavy tanks and they have largely moved away from that but you’re defending the one heavy tank that shouldn’t even be there. You can make it sound silly but including a KT or a JT to the Wehrmacht and a Panther to the DAK is fair game at this point. You can hide behind balance again but it’s got more to do with the design inherent to heavy tanks you don’t like.

Adhering to history is more complex than either being used or being a prototype. No one wants to have entire factions made up of prototypes but the question is to what extent factions can be up of prototypes, rare vehicles and vehicles that were deployed after fighting in a theater ended.

I wouldn’t mind if the BP was in COH2 since it is later war and they have taken liberties, but many of those are not in COH3. The British are more based on the army of 1942/1943 but they somehow feel the need to include a vehicle that is off by a larger margin than ever before. By you own admission, there is only one prototype. That makes it stand out even more and raises the question on why that number couldn’t be zero.
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