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Isn't the UKF Commando's camouflage ability a bit excessive?

Is the UKF Commando's camouflage too strong?
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10 Jul 2022, 02:55 AM
#1
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 957

I've been playing a bit more recently after taking a ~6month break, and while the state of the game is mostly good, I have to say I'm a bit surprised that UKF Commando's camouflage still hasn't been tuned down a bit. While not necessarily 'OP' by itself, the synergy with the unit's other abilities seems to make this unit far too strong in my opinion.

Firstly, the Commando's camouflage stays active while moving. There are other units that have this "movement" camouflage, notably Storm troopers, JLI, Falls at Vet2 and Partisans - however, two of these units don't have CQC weapons, and Storms (which have to pay for them) don't have an explosive grenade. As a result, the commando's "Grenade from Moving Camo" combo is entirely unique, and it's on arguably the strongest CQC unit in the game.

Secondly, the Commando's camouflage stays active for incredibly long after leaving cover; in my testing, they can move about 15m out of cover before de-cloaking (and of course, they don't de-cloak if they re-enter cover). With the exception of Stormtoopers, this is again another 'outlier' in terms of unit stats. Of the units which can move while cloaked, JLI and Partisans can only move 5m and 10m respectively (Vet 2 falls are also 5m). Again, while this is comparable with Stormtroopers, they lack any form of explosive grenade, and are a 4-man squad.

Thirdly there is the matter of the "Ambush Bonus": if the unit fires from camouflage it gains increased stats, typically damage, although some also have movement bonuses. From my understanding, only three infantry units have this ability; Falls, Partisans at Vet 2 and of course, Commandos. As a result, attacking from Camo (which they can be moving in) gives Commandos incredibly high DPS, especially when combined with their grenade.

Lastly, there are veterancy bonuses. At vet 1 commandos gain their smoke grenade ability, much like other infiltration-type units, and they also gain the ability to self-heal (Falls vet 4, Storms Vet 1). At vet 2 they gain improved cooldown on their grenade (to 20s from 30s, which no other infiltrator gets), +30% weapon accuracy, and +35% movement speed when ambushing (unique). At vet 3 they deploy smoke on retreating (again, unique) in addition to -10% RA.

In my view, while individually none of these are excessive, when combined these things make Commandos far too powerful, especially once they hit vet 3 and are used in the heavily cratered maps of the mid/late game (i.e. cover/camo everywhere); there simply doesn't seem to be a downside to this unit. They can move long distances while camouflaged, even out of cover. They can throw explosive grenades from camouflage, massively reducing the opponents ability to react. They can then gap-close incredibly quickly due to their ambush movement bonus, all the while doing increased damage. They can self-heal. They have a smoke grenade. They auto-deploy a free smoke grenade on retreat (at vet 3) making them very difficult to chase. They have arguably the best CQC weapons/stats in the game, even when ignoring camo and grenades. All of this would be somewhat understandable if they were incredibly costly; but they're not. At 390mp to call in they're only 50mp more than Falls, but they don't need to pay 60muni for FG42s, cost less to reinforce, and have a 5th model.

Isn't all of this a bit much on a single unit?

My suggestion to 'balance' the unit would be to simply remove their moving camouflage. While still strong, they would no longer have the ability to freely move around enemy units without detection, meaning more player skill required to perform sudden squad wipes.
10 Jul 2022, 04:37 AM
#2
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 607

After the last set of nerfs I rarely see Commando's in games. It is not that Commando's are bad but Assault Infantry Sections (along with vet 0 mortar) as well as Royal Engineers are significantly more common due to UKF struggling at the start of the game.

Vicker's sucks balls if you happen to be on a map without buildings and the early arrival of JLI/Panzer Grenadiers buts the pressure on UKF so waiting for Commandos is not as Common as it used to be back before Infantry Sections got nerfed into the ground.

Overall I would say they are fine but need more varied commander choices for the current meta.

On a side note the smoke on retreat would be nice to have on more units, even if it is a commander ability or unit upgrade.
10 Jul 2022, 04:38 AM
#3
avatar of thekessvn

Posts: 101

They are fine. L2P.
10 Jul 2022, 04:44 AM
#4
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1210

3cp 390mp elite infantry being strong, who can think of that, right ?
10 Jul 2022, 04:54 AM
#5
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 957

After the last set of nerfs I rarely see Commando's in games. It is not that Commando's are bad but Assault Infantry Sections (along with vet 0 mortar) as well as Royal Engineers are significantly more common due to UKF struggling at the start of the game.

Vicker's sucks balls if you happen to be on a map without buildings and the early arrival of JLI/Panzer Grenadiers buts the pressure on UKF so waiting for Commandos is not as Common as it used to be back before Infantry Sections got nerfed into the ground.

Overall I would say they are fine but need more varied commander choices for the current meta.

On a side note the smoke on retreat would be nice to have on more units, even if it is a commander ability or unit upgrade.


That surprises me; I'm typically in the top ~200 category, and I'd say I see them used by about 30-40% of UKF players (the remainder being Royal Eng for the AVRE, and Emplacement Com when match-making decides to break). Perhaps this is a 'team games' thing?

Commander variation would be great, however I think we're far too late to see that. I'd expect maybe one or two more balance patches at most before CoH3 is out and CoH2 is EOL.

They are fine. L2P.


3cp 390mp elite infantry being strong, who can think of that, right ?


As I explained in the post, "3cp 390mp elite infantry being strong" isn't a surprise, it's how much more powerful they are than anything similar type of unit; it's the incredible utility that the very unique camouflage brings that makes them far too easy to use. Compared to any other air-dropped unit, they excel far more in every type engagement (barring long-range and AT) for such a small price difference.

As-is, what is their "weakness"? Most other "expensive-but-lategame" units are specialized and have clear downsides, but Commando's effectively don't, short of armor.
10 Jul 2022, 05:14 AM
#6
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 607



That surprises me; I'm typically in the top ~200 category, and I'd say I see them used by about 30-40% of UKF players (the remainder being Royal Eng for the AVRE, and Emplacement Com when match-making decides to break). Perhaps this is a 'team games' thing?


It depends on the commander. Commandos from Commando Regiment I legit haven't seen in the past year or so.
If I do see Commandos at all its from Mobile Assault Regiment (Infiltration Commandos). Most of the time I see either Churchil Avre commander or Lend Lease since that covers all of UKF's weak spots. Though UKF is kind of rare compared to Soviets from my experience.

Even in recent COH2 tournaments UKF were kind of rare as well.
10 Jul 2022, 05:50 AM
#7
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1210



As I explained in the post, "3cp 390mp elite infantry being strong" isn't a surprise, it's how much more powerful they are than anything similar type of unit; it's the incredible utility that the very unique camouflage brings that makes them far too easy to use. Compared to any other air-dropped unit, they excel far more in every type engagement (barring long-range and AT) for such a small price difference.


There are no such thing as "excel far more in every type engagement", default commando only excel within 10m like most other smg squad, further than that and their dps drop off very fast, which is why they are given the assault cammo in the fist palce, to get into that close range. Sure, they can do well with bren at long range but the setup is sub-optimal and require further invesment.

And if you think 50mp is a "small price difference", see how far ober can go with 60mp more compare to riflemen or event other elites with similar price like guard/para.


As-is, what is their "weakness"? Most other "expensive-but-lategame" units are specialized and have clear downsides, but Commando's effectively don't, short of armor.


Thre are many thing can deal with them, namely Steah detection unit like ober with stg infared, air recon or anything with wheels that are bigger than a kubel.
10 Jul 2022, 06:08 AM
#8
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 957

It depends on the commander. Commandos from Commando Regiment I legit haven't seen in the past year or so.
If I do see Commandos at all its from Mobile Assault Regiment (Infiltration Commandos). Most of the time I see either Churchil Avre commander or Lend Lease since that covers all of UKF's weak spots. Though UKF is kind of rare compared to Soviets from my experience.

Even in recent COH2 tournaments UKF were kind of rare as well.


Interesting; I would say I almost always see Commando Regiment in UKF loadouts, and with UKF being present in well over 50% of matches. What modes/skill level are you playing at, out of curiosity? I could understand if this was the case for 1v1, but within the top ~200 of 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 this is definitely not the case.

There are no such thing as "excel far more in every type engagement", default commando only excel within 10m like most other smg squad, further than that and their dps drop off very fast, which is why they are given the assault cammo in the fist palce, to get into that close range. Sure, they can do well with bren at long range but the setup is sub-optimal and require further invesment.


I did say "barring long-range" because that's now how they're intended to be used - Commandos aren't going to beat LMG Grens at range, and no one is expecting them to. My point is that when used correctly they're far better than anything else; they can use smoke to clear that range gap, they can use their "moving camo" to close that range gap, and most of all, they can throw an incredibly powerful grenade from cover once they get to that "close" range (it's 20m, though). And then, if somehow they lose, they pop smoke on retreat greatly improving their survivability (even if it's on cooldown).

No other unit can do this. No other unit can come close to doing this as they're missing pieces of the kit; grenades, but no moving stealth. Moving stealth, but no grenades. Moving stealth and grenades, but no close quarter weapons. Commandos have all three, and then some extra on top.

And if you think 50mp is a "small price difference", see how far ober can go with 60mp more compare to riflemen or event other elites with similar price like guard/para.


Except at max vet, Obers lose handily to Double Bren IS' in cover (green vs. green, yellow vs. yellow), and are quite challenged by LMG Paras in similar situations. Additionally, Obers are locked behind two levels of tech, equaling over 100f in investment (not to mention MP), and then a further 80muni for their LMG (without which they will lose to rifles). Commandos just require you to survive to 3 points, and nothing else.

Thre are many thing can deal with them, namely Steah detection unit like ober with stg infared, air recon or anything with wheels that are bigger than a kubel.


One of the core design principles of the game is that no doctrine unit requires another doctrine to beat it; that would make the game inherently pay-to-win, as well as imbalanced if you had a sub-optimal load-out - so IR-obers are out.

Air recon is a viable option, but costs 40-60muni and has a cooldown, so can't be used at-will. This also requires the use of specific doctrines, which again falls into the "pay to win / imbalanced" category above.

As for vehicles, only specific units have good stealth detection (i.e. above 5m). The Kubel and 222 can detect at 25m, but the Luchs for example is limited to 5m. So again, this isn't a solution, as they can easily avoid the vehicle. Outside of doctrinal units the only vehicles with long-range detection are the Kubel and IRHT for OKW, and the 222 and (I believe) 251-HT for OST.
10 Jul 2022, 06:11 AM
#9
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1210


it's the incredible utility that the very unique camouflage brings that makes them far too easy to use.


commando's camouflage is not unique to them as stormtrooper have the exact same camo ability. Both stay invis 3s after leaving cover, difference is stormtroopers are detected at 4m while commandos are detected at 5m so if these two going toward each other, commando will be the seen fist. Commando sure have an explosive greande that storm dont have, but stormtrooper also got other utilities like being able to infiltrate at full squad size with free mp40s, on top of being cheaper overall and come sooner.
10 Jul 2022, 06:44 AM
#10
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1210





Except at max vet, Obers lose handily to Double Bren IS' in cover (green vs. green, yellow vs. yellow),


Im sorry but am i missing some patch here ????









10 Jul 2022, 07:16 AM
#11
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1210



My point is that when used correctly they're far better than anything else;


Yes, this is the right way to put it, Otherwise "excel far more in every type engagement" is symply misleading.

And, a unit being used corectly perform greatly better is nowhere near bad in term of concept. In case of commando, they do have a unique set of capable, but back to the op question, i will say they are not excessive. Commando has been like this for a long time and i believe the last change to them was a cost reduction in mobile assault, ever since, noone seem to have too much problem with them. At the very least, commando actually require micro to reach their peak.



One of the core design principles of the game is that no doctrine unit requires another doctrine to beat it; that would make the game inherently pay-to-win, as well as imbalanced if you had a sub-optimal load-out - so IR-obers are out.


The theory is good but sadly it is not what we're currently have as certain factions are still being forced to lock in certain doctrine to fill gaps in their stock lineup. If the UKF player had pick a commander to get commando but the axis palyer refuse to pick commander with counter then it is on him.




10 Jul 2022, 07:24 AM
#12
avatar of thekessvn

Posts: 101

Turn out a player couldnt handle a 390mp 3CP unit with crysis ?. Meanwhile:
1/ use kubel vet 1 hackmap.
2/ use scout car vet 1 ability.
3/ pay a little attention for capping unit.
4/ pick doctrine and profit ?.
Funny enough last Commando nerf was for creeping 2 PIAT commando =]]
10 Jul 2022, 09:04 AM
#13
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13090 | Subs: 1

Yes commandos are pretty common.

And yes their stealth package should be looked.

UKF remain badly designed and it remains annoying to play with and against them.
10 Jul 2022, 14:21 PM
#15
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 797

When stormtroopers were given the mp44 upgrade, they also replaced the bundle grenade on them as it was seen giving a unit with high cqc close range damage with stealth plus a powerful grenade would lead to frustrating wipes with the opposing player given no time to react. Its not about the unit being OP.

My guess, it was just an oversight by the balance team on how they completely missed commandos. No doubt this should have been addressed


10 Jul 2022, 15:11 PM
#16
avatar of thekessvn

Posts: 101

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jul 2022, 14:21 PMAlphrum
When stormtroopers were given the mp44 upgrade, they also replaced the bundle grenade on them as it was seen giving a unit with high cqc close range damage with stealth plus a powerful grenade would lead to frustrating wipes with the opposing player given no time to react. Its not about the unit being OP.

My guess, it was just an oversight by the balance team on how they completely missed commandos. No doubt this should have been addressed



they are type of commandos. One is airdrop from griller and onther jump out of building. First one doesnt have suprise element and both of them are expensive (390 mp]. second one nerfed from 4 to 5 and gamon bomb need to cooldown.
Not to mention their stealth power nerfed last patch. And again, you can do ambush bundle nade with Strormtrooper without upgrade MP40 just like them. They are working as intended. Stop Crying weabraboos.
10 Jul 2022, 15:17 PM
#17
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 949 | Subs: 1

Imo the only problems are:

1) They are getting ambush bonus by simply moving near cover (this is a problem with all units which has ambush buff, I have no idea why balance team didnt put requirement for it to be triggered only after certain amount of time spent in cover).
2) Out of camo nade (which is an oversight)
3) Double Bren commandos having all their cloak buffs despite being on pair with obersts\lmg paras\fallsh

And as a side problem, especially in games where there are a lot arty and map becomes a moon creator, commandos can practically walk invisible and the second they get into a fight, they gain ambush bonus.



And again, you can do ambush bundle nade with Strormtrooper without upgrade MP40 just like them.


So, in other words: nade + 4 rifles = nade + 5 one of the strongest SMGs? :snfPeter:
10 Jul 2022, 15:26 PM
#19
avatar of thekessvn

Posts: 101


So, in other words: nade + 4 rifles = nade + 5 one of the strongest SMGs? :snfPeter:
}
> talk about ambush bundle nade.
> bring weapon porifle ?
> dumb ass
10 Jul 2022, 15:30 PM
#20
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 949 | Subs: 1

}
> talk about ambush bundle nade.
> bring weapon porifle ?
> dumb ass


> Makes comparison
> Don't have a slightest idea about ambush DPS importance, in situation where nade didn't wipe a squad
> Understands that he made a doodoo
> Starts personal attacks :snfPeter:
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