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When you have a konig you are invincible

25 May 2022, 09:18 AM
#61
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13161 | Subs: 1



Don't SVTs have 0.5 moving accuracy?

Check total squad DPS instead of the DPS of 1 weapon.
25 May 2022, 09:20 AM
#62
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13161 | Subs: 1


If you could explain how that is related to the broader topic of OKW and Pfusies, and why Penals and Pfusies should be comparable, that would be great.

I am simply responding to specific post that you might want to read again.
25 May 2022, 09:24 AM
#63
avatar of Hannibal
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It's the cancerous G43 moving accuracy that needs to go. You can just blob 4 pfusilier squads and right click opponent's cutoff and they'll kill everyone on their way there without any further input. Even worse is that G43s have long range damage which is slightly better than their kar98s. It's an a-move blob that can frontally decrew a 50 cal from long range and easily dodges the traditional blob counters like Scotts/Rocket arty.

That is an issue, too. However I'd still start with the massive recon options this squad gives you. Frontally blobbing MGs is possible, but can be quite a gamble. However, Fusiliers have an easier time because they can just dodge the MG before it can fire. You're basically always be outflanked on the defensive, and you cannot re-setup your MG against Fusiliers. If that would be gone, an MG + screening pioneer might be good enough to suppress 1-2 squads before that happens.
It's an early-mid power spike that does not really have counters, because the intended counter at that time is either still the MG or an LV. If your MG cannot suppress properly, your LV is also not very safe or at the very least highly micro intensive compared to A-moving, which can cause you to lose other squads on the field.
25 May 2022, 09:25 AM
#64
avatar of Hannibal
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jump backJump back to quoted post25 May 2022, 09:20 AMVipper

I am simply responding to specific post that you might want to read again.

I read it, nothing is related to Penals. Please stay on topic.
25 May 2022, 09:32 AM
#65
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13161 | Subs: 1


I read it, nothing is related to Penals. Please stay on topic.

Nothing related between PF and KT either.

Now do you agree that Penal squad has similar far moving DPS with more expansive PF squad or not?

In your opinion is it "the cancerous G43 moving accuracy that needs to go" while the SVT moving accuracy is fine?
25 May 2022, 09:46 AM
#70
avatar of OKSpitfire

Posts: 76

jump backJump back to quoted post25 May 2022, 09:01 AMKatukov


like what weakness?



their biggest weakness is badly placed tech structures that allow for allied players to destroy them and hinder the OKW player significantly. arty spam should be the go to tool for any offensive OKW hq placement



Relatively weak team weapons and mainline infantry whose effectiveness drops off a cliff in the mid to lategame (though yes, they do have stock elites to compensate for this). Outside of certain doctrines they're pretty vulnerable to snipers and team weapon spam. Heavily reliant on the Ausf. J, which i don't think is the best medium either, for its cost, and rocket artillery that while incredibly powerful, is less consistent and easier to dodge than the Ostheer Werfer.

Of course, this isn't to suggest the they don't have a number of powerful tools that other factions lack (hello konig), but they definitely have weaknesses too.
25 May 2022, 11:04 AM
#71
avatar of Hannibal
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jump backJump back to quoted post25 May 2022, 09:32 AMVipper

Nothing related between PF and KT either.

All threads tend to broaden in their topic over time. PFs can at least synzergize with the KT and do not come with all of the other burden that Penals come with. Those two squads are barely comparable, so there is no reason to bring them up and compare them, period. Penals are just tossed in with no relation nor context given at all.

jump backJump back to quoted post25 May 2022, 09:32 AMVipper
Now do you agree that Penal squad has similar far moving DPS with more expansive PF squad or not?

In your opinion is it "the cancerous G43 moving accuracy that needs to go" while the SVT moving accuracy is fine?

Again, there is not much sense in comparing these squads in the first place, even disregarding the fact that Fusiliers come with way more concentrated firepower.
I do not agree regarding your point on moving accuracy because it is simply wrong.
The G43 loses little DPS on the move. I have not seen all weapons and their DPS curves, but it is the lowest I have seen so far. With the G43 being allround better than the K98, this means it is better on the move than a stationary K98. This is straight up bad weapon design, only barely hidden by the fact of the mixed weapon squad.
25 May 2022, 11:29 AM
#72
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 556

Panzerfusiliers are overhyped. Volks are much better early and always have the option to launch a lava nade. I'd take cheaper volks over panzerfusies and build the mines with the difference in upgrade munitions.

Edit: Why whould you gentlemen care about scaling of your mainline when you have the absolute terminator stock in your roster ?

Edit 2: Though I agree axis factions are a little bit on the strong side.
25 May 2022, 11:37 AM
#73
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13161 | Subs: 1


All threads tend to broaden in their topic over time. PFs can at least synzergize with the KT and do not come with all of the other burden that Penals come with. Those two squads are barely comparable, so there is no reason to bring them up and compare them, period. Penals are just tossed in with no relation nor context given at all.

These squad are very much comparable since they have the exact same role. An alternative mainline infatry that can upgrade with AT.

But I did not compare these units so I am not sure why you are acting as if I did.

I have simply pointed out that a Penal squad and PF have similar moving DPS.


Again, there is not much sense in comparing these squads in the first place, even disregarding the fact that Fusiliers come with way more concentrated firepower.
I do not agree regarding your point on moving accuracy because it is simply wrong.
The G43 loses little DPS on the move. I have not seen all weapons and their DPS curves, but it is the lowest I have seen so far. With the G43 being allround better than the K98, this means it is better on the move than a stationary K98. This is straight up bad weapon design, only barely hidden by the fact of the mixed weapon squad.

Only that was not my point, I did not compare the G43 with SVT because that is simply misleading since only 3 entities carry the G43.

I did however compared the PF squad and Penal squad DPS on the move and they are about the same so the theory that a PF squad has abnormally high moving DPS does not really hold much water.

25 May 2022, 12:14 PM
#74
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3467 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 May 2022, 08:58 AMKatukov


The issue about okw in team mode is that the faction is overstat'd with many units and VERY powerful abilities in tandem:

KT + lefh
KT + pak-43 + LEFH
KT + LEFH + extreme plane loiter
KT + sturmtiger
KT + offmap "delete frontline" artillery
KT + rocket arty


KT + Raketen. I've always wondered why the faction having the strongest tanks (P4j/Panther/Tiger/KT) and superior light tank hunter (Puma) is also the faction having the cheapest and most resilient atgun in the game. If anything the raketen should be by far the shittiest atgun available like having no more than the M-42 AT capacity and only able to poke medium tanks in general.

The modding team managed to gives OKW so much AT power at every stage of the game without any regards for balance. Shrek on Sturm, Raketen that get 5 men and retreat button, Puma, P4J being buffed to heaven so its simply superior to all other stock tanks, Panther, KT, jagpanther and then the late Tiger because why not.

OKW has been the special snowflake of the game for team game since the modding team took over, I wonder why.

25 May 2022, 12:33 PM
#75
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1097



Preach. Like I TOTALLY get people who say that OKW isn't as OP as you make it out to be. I play plenty of OKW and it doesn't feel like a complete cake walk ever. BUT I 100% believe it's the idiot casual player's favorite faction. It's just way too easy to crutch on stupid stuff with minimal skill

1. A Move Raketens that just retreat after sniping your paper mediums and TDs.
2. Obers that are the biggest PITA once they are vetted.
3. Pinpoint accurate Rocket Arty
4. Best stock medium that gets great scatter with vet and best medium armor so RNG can fuck you over even when you play well if you get anything other than a TD
5. Obnoxious FLak Truck for "free" area denial and support weapon protector/ Truck City BS. Bonus for "free AA platform"! Fuck your offmaps! Side tech for your own AA or hamstring your build to fit it in to counter Sector Assault.
6. Oh you punished the Risk/Reward of Flak Truck and Killed it? Hahaha Stall for KT is next.
7. KT that's otherwise balanced but completely busted with Spearhead and/or Panzer Commander

Bonus Round Obnoxious Doctrinal Stuff that's omni-present

1. Fusies! Like Volks but better **Disclaimer you have to stomach getting pushed around before upgrades** then Holy Shit Minimal micro time! Bonus Vision! Great moving Accuracy so you can blob move without giving a shit. Extra Bonus for being in Grand Assault which is all around a great commander and allows for KT/Spearhead abuse!

2. Jaegers. Yay! Map Hack Vision and their Snipes more or less single handedly wrecks UKF. Extra Bonus for being in Overwatch.

3. Overwatch! Yay, Jaegers and you completely counter almost everything else with the most OP Offmap in the game **disclaimer, it's slightly more expensive after the last patch... nobody cares!** Hope you have AA! Oh wait it's 1v1 and it's hard to fit AA into your build? Well fuck you! Better hope they can't stockpile Munis! Extra bonus for team games because you get Howie too! Better hope you have an offmap and didn't pick a different commander to deal with the other OKW crutches.

Again. I totally get it. OKW isn't OP but OMG. It is easily the the one faction that I feel like I have to work harder to beat players with inferior micro/skill.

/endrant

TL:DR KT isn't really that OP aside from Spearhead abuse but dear god KT in the greater context of OKW can be annoying as hell and the straw that breaks Allies back.


If you did not manage to beat OKW when he has no flak hq (meaning no heavy inf either) and he succesfully stalled for kongigstgiger then in all honesty you deserve to get beaten.
25 May 2022, 12:35 PM
#76
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 2840 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post25 May 2022, 11:37 AMVipper

These squad are very much comparable since they have the exact same role. An alternative mainline infatry that can upgrade with AT.

But I did not compare these units so I am not sure why you are acting as if I did.

I have simply pointed out that a Penal squad and PF have similar moving DPS.


Only that was not my point, I did not compare the G43 with SVT because that is simply misleading since only 3 entities carry the G43.

I did however compared the PF squad and Penal squad DPS on the move and they are about the same so the theory that a PF squad has abnormally high moving DPS does not really hold much water.

Again, unless I have missed a patch for PF G43s or Penal SVTs: they do not have the same moving DPS. PF are better by 25-50% depending on range.
The G43 design point and how this affects PF is one that I made in addition, nothing is misleading there, but it is misleading to compare those units in the first place without context. However, I'd suggest to open a new thread if you want to keep comparing Penals and PF to keep this thread focused on OKW.

jump backJump back to quoted post25 May 2022, 12:14 PMEsxile
KT + Raketen. I've always wondered why the faction having the strongest tanks (P4j/Panther/Tiger/KT) and superior light tank hunter (Puma) is also the faction having the cheapest and most resilient atgun in the game. If anything the raketen should be by far the shittiest atgun available like having no more than the M-42 AT capacity and only able to poke medium tanks in general.

The modding team managed to gives OKW so much AT power at every stage of the game without any regards for balance. Shrek on Sturm, Raketen that get 5 men and retreat button, Puma, P4J being buffed to heaven so its simply superior to all other stock tanks, Panther, KT, jagpanther and then the late Tiger because why not.

OKW has been the special snowflake of the game for team game since the modding team took over, I wonder why.

All of these units are pretty in line with their cost. It's not like you'd get the P4J for the price of the Ostheer P4 or a Sherman. It also costs more population, so you can fit less units. That's balancing done right, I guess.
The faction definitely has some problems, such as MP inefficiencies unless you manage to transition to Obers, which in turn removes your snares, as well as their split tech system which at least for the first 20 minutes if not the whole game leaves you without proper healing or sub-par repair abilities.
25 May 2022, 12:53 PM
#77
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3467 | Subs: 1




All of these units are pretty in line with their cost. It's not like you'd get the P4J for the price of the Ostheer P4 or a Sherman. It also costs more population, so you can fit less units. That's balancing done right, I guess.
The faction definitely has some problems, such as MP inefficiencies unless you manage to transition to Obers, which in turn removes your snares, as well as their split tech system which at least for the first 20 minutes if not the whole game leaves you without proper healing or sub-par repair abilities.


Cost =! balance but I didn't say they weren't balanced, I said that the raketen costing 270mp and having free 5men squad + free retreat button + free vet1 camo + having no problem dealing with medium tanks is a problem when associated with said tanks and ultimately the KT, because its dirt cheap and resilient , even if said tanks are with their correct price tag.

What make the KT invincible and OKW a problematic faction as a whole isn't only the KT itself, its also the fact that OKW has to be "balanced" without it which mean the faction doesn't suffer if you don't use it. Now you have faction that can definitively win without the KT having it as a the cherry on top of the cake. That's make a really big cherry able to reverse the game by its mere presence.

In few words, what is balance without the KT becomes inbalanced with the KT simply because it is a force multiplier for anything around it for a resonable cost since its cost has to be reasonable to be balance.

It was statwise balanced before because TDs were actually countering it as they must. It is not today because of the huge amount of RNG their pen nerf brought in the game for the sake of few people enjoying their 1 unit's army.
25 May 2022, 13:05 PM
#78
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1097

jump backJump back to quoted post25 May 2022, 08:58 AMKatukov


The issue about okw in team mode is that the faction is overstat'd with many units and VERY powerful abilities in tandem:

KT + lefh
KT + pak-43 + LEFH
KT + LEFH + extreme plane loiter
KT + sturmtiger
KT + offmap "delete frontline" artillery
KT + rocket arty
Jagdtiger + delete frontline artillery + cover entire area in smoke
Sturm officer (support unit with OBER models) + Panzerfusiliers (S tier infantry with the best move accuracy in the game on upgrade) = forces retreat on machine guns and the defense falls apart, or guarantees to outnumber defenders
Panzerfusiliers + stuka smoke drops = cover essentially the entire enemy defense in a fast and quite large smoke drop, making frontal blob assaults significantly easier (also fuck MG based defense, amirite?)

the classic raketen blob a-move and insta retreat tactic that is frequent in 3v3

Elite armor: panzer commander gives free vision and hard counters AT guns, heat shells make your tanks decimate enemy armor, and an early game LV harass tool. I am really understating how op heat shells are but whatever

Obers give way to strong late game infantry
Jaeger light infantry give way to "what the fuck how did my squad lose a model on a single volley hit"
KT + jagdpanzer IV/70 to counter enemy TDs or opposing armor
kubelwagen gives way to a cheap map hack (also an annoying as FUCK harass tool, its so speedy its rather easy to get it to vet 5)



pfus are really good but there's a plethora of tools that are just as good or better in certain situations , okw might be the most complete faction of WFA because they really don't lack anything


  • Let's do some light math (if you cannot count, I would suggest this). A kongigstgiger costs 270fu 720mp PLUS the three full tech trucks. That puts it into the 1000fuel 1600mp category. A Lefh costs 400mp 50fu to build. A loiter (considering you went the Overwatch route) costs 260ish muni. So in essence what you have dedicated 60% of your wall of text in saying is that a 1000fuel 1600mp and 260muni+ army can outplay an army of lesser value. WOW! Wait until you realize that 10>5 !!!
  • Jagdtiger costs 245fu and 640mp and works wonders only against enemy tank destroyers (so I guess you are a TD spammer? you deserve to lose by jagd then) and does shit against inf (that ability is hit or miss).
  • Stuka smoke drop costs serious muni for its timing. Iirc (I haven't played in about 10 days) it costs 50muni with 1cp meaning that you sacrifice upgrades that can carry you late game for some early game momentary risk. It's not as rose painted as you make it out to be.
  • HEAT shells are indeed crazy OP, especially coupled with the Pz commander upgrade. But what makes the whole tech tree OP is that the 251 can play for all game long essentialy since in the first minutes it's a very good scouting/harrassing tool and then becomes free fuel/muni gainer for a cache-starved faction.
  • complaining about fucking kubel? come on
  • you mentioned jli yet you completely forget to mention Cuckfinders which USF get from t0 with the upgrade coming for free.
25 May 2022, 13:08 PM
#79
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 2840 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post25 May 2022, 12:53 PMEsxile
Cost =! balance but I didn't say they weren't balanced, I said that the raketen costing 270mp and having free 5men squad + free retreat button + free vet1 camo + having no problem dealing with medium tanks is a problem when associated with said tanks and ultimately the KT, because its dirt cheap and resilient , even if said tanks are with their correct price tag.

Are you now only relating to the Raketen or also the P4/Panther/... that you named for your argument?


jump backJump back to quoted post25 May 2022, 12:53 PMEsxile
What make the KT invincible and OKW a problematic faction as a whole isn't only the KT itself, its also the fact that OKW has to be "balanced" without it which mean the faction doesn't suffer if you don't use it. Now you have faction that can definitively win without the KT having it as a the cherry on top of the cake. That's make a really big cherry able to reverse the game by its mere presence.

In few words, what is balance without the KT becomes inbalanced with the KT simply because it is a force multiplier for anything around it for a resonable cost since its cost has to be reasonable to be balance.

It was statwise balanced before because TDs were actually countering it as they must. It is not today because of the huge amount of RNG their pen nerf brought in the game for the sake of few people enjoying their 1 army's unit.

No, that is not how it works, otherwise all doctrinal units were OP by definition, because the faction has to work without it as well. You're phrasing it as if you could have a normal 100 pop build as OKW and then just buy the KT on top.
The KT - like every other unit - comes with opportunity costs due to their price and POP. If you buy it, you can't get something else. Getting a heavy like the KT concentrates a huge chunk of your population and resources into one unit. You can't get a P4, Panther or whatever other unit anymore, because this population is blocked already. Therefore, you can be exploited. That's how balance at the very basic level works, and overall that's working well in OKW.

The spearhead ability in the other hand - not so much. You're rarely affected by the 90° lock anyway in team games. 45° would be more interesting, if we wanted to keep the mechanics the same.

Are you in the last part referring to the vet nerf on TDs? That created a difference of about 6-7% pen chance. So yes, noticable, but TDs were not really what you'd call reliable against the KT even before.
25 May 2022, 13:30 PM
#80
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3467 | Subs: 1


Are you now only relating to the Raketen or also the P4/Panther/... that you named for your argument?



I said Raketen + KT. Because as I said the KT is a force multiplier that put the cheap and resilient raketen into orbit of Opness when associated together. The reste I questioned the need for the raketen to have those stats since OKW isn't a faction laking of AT.



No, that is not how it works, otherwise all doctrinal units were OP by definition, because the faction has to work without it as well. You're phrasing it as if you could have a normal 100 pop build as OKW and then just buy the KT on top.
The KT - like every other unit - comes with opportunity costs due to their price and POP. If you buy it, you can't get something else. Getting a heavy like the KT concentrates a huge chunk of your population and resources into one unit. You can't get a P4, Panther or whatever other unit anymore, because this population is blocked already. Therefore, you can be exploited. That's how balance at the very basic level works, and overall that's working well in OKW.

The spearhead ability in the other hand - not so much. You're rarely affected by the 90° lock anyway in team games. 45° would be more interesting, if we wanted to keep the mechanics the same.

Are you in the last part referring to the vet nerf on TDs? That created a difference of about 6-7% pen chance. So yes, noticable, but TDs were not really what you'd call reliable against the KT even before.


Doctrinal units are doctrinal, KT isn't then I don't really understand your argumentation about cost opportunity and the KT and how it impacts the topic. Why would you get something else that a KT that can fight tanks and infantry and force your opponent to invest more resources in TDs. I mean unless your opponent already has 2 or more TDs (and even in that case a KT can still be a good choice). I mean every single late game that last enough sees a KT pop out because it simply the best late game unit, it requires much less micro than any equivalence in cost to be used efficiently.
I mean I come back to the TD scenario, do you think building a panther or 2 P4j to fight of TDs is going to be better than a KT associated with a pair of raketen? To me it's map dependant and also dependant on what else the opponent still has on the field but the KT is still rather the superior solution.

6/7% is huge and clearly noticiable otherwise why would they nerf them this amount? Cosmetic?
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