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russian armor

Buff M8 Greyhound, seems naturally.

23 Jun 2022, 06:35 AM
#21
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 598



no he's dead wrong

(You do realize there's an AT strafe and a loiter, and you guys aren't talking about the same thing, right?)
24 Jun 2022, 07:26 AM
#22
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 723


(You do realize there's an AT strafe and a loiter, and you guys aren't talking about the same thing, right?)


yep I was talking about the bombing run as its comparable to cluster bombs somewhat above in the post... he just dosent know what hes talking about lol
12 Jul 2022, 12:32 PM
#23
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 471

Well maybe on the non-fight stat yes, but itself is actually a decent unit against OKW.

https://www.coh2.org/replay/110544/m8-greyhound-is-decent-unit-01
https://www.coh2.org/replay/110545/m8-greyhound-is-decent-unit-02


Truth to be told, any multiple LV spam will do against OKW....
16 Aug 2022, 01:01 AM
#24
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 877

Well maybe on the non-fight stat yes, but itself is actually a decent unit against OKW.

https://www.coh2.org/replay/110544/m8-greyhound-is-decent-unit-01
https://www.coh2.org/replay/110545/m8-greyhound-is-decent-unit-02


Truth to be told, any multiple LV spam will do against OKW....


Right, because OKW doesn't have overly buffed Raketenwehrfers.
16 Aug 2022, 12:51 PM
#25
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 471

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Aug 2022, 01:01 AMCODGUY


Right, because OKW doesn't have overly buffed Raketenwehrfers.


Are you sure nerfed is not the right word you are looking for?

As one of the players who consistently spoke for the nerf of the stealth-ninja raket from the beginning, I never thought I would be the one to defend it; but truth to be told OKW is currently one of the weakest factions in early vehicle timing(6~16 min.) along with UKF.

I'm not sure about what other good players think, but I personally put OKW next to UKF in 1v1.

Something like
SOV >= WM = USF >> OKW >> UKF
16 Aug 2022, 13:42 PM
#26
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 511



Are you sure nerfed is not the right word you are looking for?

As one of the players who consistently spoke for the nerf of the stealth-ninja raket from the beginning, I never thought I would be the one to defend it; but truth to be told OKW is currently one of the weakest factions in early vehicle timing(6~16 min.) along with UKF.

I'm not sure about what other good players think, but I personally put OKW next to UKF in 1v1.

Something like
SOV >= WM = USF >> OKW >> UKF


DO you mean the units themselves or the timings. FLAK track comes in around the 6 min mark, luchs is a tiny bit before 7 mins with equal fuel. So the timings aren't to bad. To me the bigger issue seems to be the tech choice. If both buildings had the option to upgrade meds/repairs I think mechanized would see a resurgence. The fact that you have to pick LV vs healing is nonsense.
16 Aug 2022, 14:27 PM
#27
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1460



Are you sure nerfed is not the right word you are looking for?

As one of the players who consistently spoke for the nerf of the stealth-ninja raket from the beginning, I never thought I would be the one to defend it; but truth to be told OKW is currently one of the weakest factions in early vehicle timing(6~16 min.) along with UKF.

I'm not sure about what other good players think, but I personally put OKW next to UKF in 1v1.

Something like
SOV >= WM = USF >> OKW >> UKF


Truth be told. OKW is probably the strongest overall in good hands, after the Sov.
Can't compare with OST as they are on the same side but...

Flak HT is around 6 minutes, most powerful LV AI in the game probably, suppresses instantly and destroys cover instantly. Is easy to use.
Luchs is alongside the T70 the best AI LV overall, coming at a much earlier timing than T70 and easily supplemented by the Raketen which can retreat.

Puma is not bad. Extremely hard to kill with the instant smoke get out of jail free card. Counters every other LV, and mediums. Bad AI, but does bleed a bit. Overall, it's OK to let it shoot at infantry when engaging. Won't do much damage, but, brick by brick and you have a palace.

Soviets are by far the strongest in the LV, only due to the fact that T70 carries the faction. It's great against all other LVs except Puma, and it's brutal in the AI department.
OKW/OST come next. OST has the 222 which is a great scout/AI tool. Not as potent, but can be downright broken with the right commander. Eg. spotting scopes on a vetted 222.
OKW with the flak HT which is a 360 AI killing machine.

USF would be next. The AAHT is great, but it's extremely buggy and unreliable.
It has about 9 second reload time. The clip fits 10 shots, which is not enough to destroy Luchs/Puma. It's outranged by the Flak HT, and 2 shot. People tend to forget that the Cannon has 30 range, whereas the Machineguns have 35 (visual line/arc). Extremely clunky to use with the ass-shooting, and needs to be static for the cannon. Which means positioning is crucial. Not only that, but the cannon sometimes won't even fire, because it won't register as static. Shooting down planes is also extremely unreliable. 40% times it will shoot down a plane instantly, 60% the plane ability will expire without any planes getting shot down. I think I even have a replay of a game where the AAHT was completely bugged. Shot down 0 recon planes in 50 minutes. Kept rotating (in AA-only mode) and just tracking the target without shooting.
So AAHT -- Great on paper, but extremely technical and buggy and unreliable. 99% of my USF games have been with the AAHT, so I know what I'm saying from experience.
Stuart. Good in 1v1s. Good AT, decent AI. Nothing to write home about but will get a part of the job done.

UKF only has the AEC, which is 90% AT and 10% AI oriented. UKF is definitely not a LV faction.


Sov > OKW = OST > USF > UKF and there is a big vacuum between OST and USF.

16 Aug 2022, 16:15 PM
#28
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 471



Truth be told. OKW is probably the strongest overall in good hands, after the Sov.
Can't compare with OST as they are on the same side but...


That clearly shows why we see a lot of OKW in 1v1 tourney!!! Or... is it?

OKW must choose between heal vs LV (luchs & puma) rush. I'm not saying luchs and puma are bad. Puma once was the strongest LV in the game (before they nerfed sight. Which was necessary nerf. - please also do to the WM Puma - ), but to choose that LV, OKW must sacrifice the ability to heal for a while. (It only has two choices - 45 muni for 3 chances of healing or go for the commander with heal truck).

So in most cases, we only have AAHT in our hands. Let's face the fact. It is very deadly to the inf., but it does not have any AT power. It's very debatable which one is better against USF AAHT & OKW AAHT, they do have pros and cons. But in terms of AI, I do favor USF one since it can suppress inf. while in move. (But lacks a lot in survivability thanks to lack of smoke & nature of reverse driving).

Yes UKF AEC sucks in AI, but it does have very good AT power next to Puma. And thanks to the fact that OKW no longer goes for 2nd tier occasionally, it does what it has to do once purchased. (I still don't like the AEC itself, but sometimes the unit is necessary).

In overall, OKW doesn't have the flexibility of WM. The faction must let the opponent rule the battlefield for a while and it is very critical especially if opponents are good(lvl. 18+) because OKW is very vulnerable in LV timing. Either it is T-70 or stuart + m20 or even m8.

Please don't get me wrong. I was Allies fan-boy in my heart for most of my CoH life (including CoHO & CoH1), and I still consider myself as one. I just trying to be fair in terms of balance as always.
16 Aug 2022, 16:42 PM
#29
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1460



That clearly shows why we see a lot of OKW in 1v1 tourney!!! Or... is it?

OKW must choose between heal vs LV (luchs & puma) rush. I'm not saying luchs and puma are bad. Puma once was the strongest LV in the game (before they nerfed sight. Which was necessary nerf. - please also do to the WM Puma - ), but to choose that LV, OKW must sacrifice the ability to heal for a while. (It only has two choices - 45 muni for 3 chances of healing or go for the commander with heal truck).

So in most cases, we only have AAHT in our hands. Let's face the fact. It is very deadly to the inf., but it does not have any AT power. It's very debatable which one is better against USF AAHT & OKW AAHT, they do have pros and cons. But in terms of AI, I do favor USF one since it can suppress inf. while in move. (But lacks a lot in survivability thanks to lack of smoke & nature of reverse driving).

Yes UKF AEC sucks in AI, but it does have very good AT power next to Puma. And thanks to the fact that OKW no longer goes for 2nd tier occasionally, it does what it has to do once purchased. (I still don't like the AEC itself, but sometimes the unit is necessary).

In overall, OKW doesn't have the flexibility of WM. The faction must let the opponent rule the battlefield for a while and it is very critical especially if opponents are good(lvl. 18+) because OKW is very vulnerable in LV timing. Either it is T-70 or stuart + m20 or even m8.

Please don't get me wrong. I was Allies fan-boy in my heart for most of my CoH life (including CoHO & CoH1), and I still consider myself as one. I just trying to be fair in terms of balance as always.


OKW not being seen in 1v1 is due to the fact that people don't want to risk anything. Hence OST is picked the most. People don't want compromises, they don't want to have to choose. When you have a choice. Lieu or Cap || Mech or BTG || T1 or T2 sov.... people don't want that. In the case of Soviets, it's easy. You can go penals against OKW but extremely unadvised against OST. In case of USF, for 1v1 at least, it's also easy. You NEED the 50 cal early. In case of OKW, it's not as clear cut. Hence the most difficult decision. In 2v2+ it's not a hard choice, but in 1v1, it definitely is. Both have their merits, but people prefer the free heals over the luchs/puma/stuka. Every time I see a puma on the field, on an open map, it almost always reaches vet5 through the course of the game. Extremely hard to kill if it's used properly. Low target size, speedy boi, smoke, great range.... best AT LV in the game, by far.
17 Aug 2022, 02:38 AM
#30
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 266

In current tournament, OKW pick was solid pick.
USF in another hand was risky choice.
17 Aug 2022, 09:42 AM
#31
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1



Shooting down planes is also extremely unreliable.

AAHT is actually very reliable when in AA mode. There is an issue when in ground mode when planes fly close to the AAHT since the cabin does not allow the weapon to track targets in 360 degrees.


40% times it will shoot down a plane instantly, 60% the plane ability will expire without any planes getting shot down.

Where did 40%/60% stats come from, is just your own guess without any testing?
What do you mean by the "ability will expire"?


I think I even have a replay of a game where the AAHT was completely bugged. Shot down 0 recon planes in 50 minutes. Kept rotating (in AA-only mode) and just tracking the target without shooting.

PLS provide the replay

Does your post have anything to do with M8 Greyhound which is thread is about?

17 Aug 2022, 11:33 AM
#32
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2837 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Aug 2022, 09:42 AMVipper

AAHT is actually very reliable when in AA mode. There is an issue when in ground mode when planes fly close to the AAHT since the cabin does not allow the weapon to track targets in 360 degrees.

I probably did not switch on AA mode back then, but I remember that the AAHT starts spinning around weirdly if planes fly in range, but outside of the arch, which often forces you to use hand brake.
I guess AA mode fixes it, but needing to activate that mode specifically for an >anti air< half track to actually not bug out while shooting at planes just adds to the clunkyness.
17 Aug 2022, 11:36 AM
#33
avatar of TheMachine
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 872 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jun 2022, 09:05 AMRocket
problem with Cannister shot that it cost a lot of munitions in a heavy munition doc, why it makes no sense. Calling in para and pak howie, upgrading said para with 1919 and bars on others and the cluster bomb ball in. I like that doct but never once call in the greyhound.


This is true, the commander is too munitions heavy. The Greyhound would be more usuable if the 50cal upgrade came in stock to save you the 50 munitions or whatever it costs.
17 Aug 2022, 13:07 PM
#34
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1


I probably did not switch on AA mode back then, but I remember that the AAHT starts spinning around weirdly if planes fly in range, but outside of the arch, which often forces you to use hand brake.
I guess AA mode fixes it, but needing to activate that mode specifically for an >anti air< half track to actually not bug out while shooting at planes just adds to the clunkyness.

Saying it clunky (I personally would describe having to press a button as "clunkyness") is quite different from making unsubstantiated claims that the AAHT is "extremely unreliable", has "an ability that expires before shooting down planes", "chance of shooting down a planes is 40%".

The AAHT (in AA mode) is one of the most effective anti-aircraft vehicles (can also effective in normal mode depending on flight path). The unit might be "clunky" to use but on the other is one of the few vehicles that can provide suppressive fire on the move and can be an effective unit in the hands of experienced players.

Anyway this thread is about the M8 greyhound.



18 Aug 2022, 17:14 PM
#35
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 723

Greyhound just dosent fit in that doct well, I&R paths already give you the vision and greyhound cost too much munitions to make it effective in an already super heavy munitions doct. It would be better off being in mechanized and replacing the mortar HT there. And replace the greyhound with at gun drop in rcon support.
20 Aug 2022, 04:46 AM
#37
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 723

Not sure why jackson and ff were nerfed other than to let tigers free reign (community euro symthptheizers balance team) so basically if i make a tiger i should win the entire war, luckily that never happened, should make all the german tanks have transmission failures after being on the map after 5 mins and abandoned, would be more historically correct lmao
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