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Royal engineer Recovery Squad

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27 Apr 2022, 00:16 AM
#81
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 786 | Subs: 1




Royal Engineers Start on cooldown, so even if they make UC as the first unit and then wait for Royal Engineers, that is a good 30 seconds + time it takes to arrive at whatever point they wish to capture.



correction: the strategy has an UC being built immediately, and then you call in the squad at around the same time when its made

the squad and the UC arrive at the same time and then you drive the squad with the UC. This minute 0 volks and mg-42 shock strat is effective at surprising enemies
27 Apr 2022, 00:18 AM
#82
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 786 | Subs: 1



proof or gtfo


https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198036203179

(also no games younger than a month as ukf)
27 Apr 2022, 01:05 AM
#83
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 658

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2022, 00:16 AMKatukov

correction: the strategy has an UC being built immediately, and then you call in the squad at around the same time when its made

the squad and the UC arrive at the same time and then you drive the squad with the UC. This minute 0 volks and mg-42 shock strat is effective at surprising enemies


They have to sacrifice map control to do that though.
27 Apr 2022, 06:49 AM
#84
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1




I laid out the typical scenarios on what would happen in a real game. Even in a Vipper vacuum world where it is 1 Grenadier vs 1 Royal Engineer, as the Royal Engineer Squad is running up close to the Grenadier(or even volks)
It will drop a model or 2 before getting in optimal range and would most likely end up in a tie forcing both units to retreat which is rather terrible when you consider that Royal Engineers are more expensive than Grenadiers and you chose a doctrine for that.



Glad to see that you have reconsider your original post where you clearly implied that grenadier/VG losing to RoRE happens only by the player moving Grenadiers/VGs to "melee" range.

Are you sending VG/Grenadiers into melee range?


As for the double retreat it a rather weak argument.

As for imaginary faust/AT grenades one simply does not have enough munition for that at minute 1:30 so instead of theorizing suggest you test.
27 Apr 2022, 06:52 AM
#85
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1


All this while there is so much speaking against it being OP. There is no point to make here, you make claims and don't back them up with tests, and the reasoning provided is fairly weak.
I even just tested it: On Whiteball, rushing fuel, OKW's SP arrives there at 1:05, the first Volk about 20 seconds later, the Kubel arrives at 1:35.
Trying the same thing with the allegedly problematic UKF strat, first IS arrives 1:05 (no surprise), while the Sapper+UC combo arrives at 1:32.
Now, Whiteball is not the largest map available, but it shows the scale of the "problem": You're arriving maybe 10 seconds later than the UKF player. You've not shown in any way how this is problematic. If it were, games would be decided by the first engagement only.

Nice to see that you actually did some test. Do know appreciate the effect of distance?
27 Apr 2022, 07:25 AM
#86
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 658

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2022, 06:52 AMVipper

Nice to see that you actually did some test. Do know appreciate the effect of distance?



Instead of trolling Hannibal you could actually learn how to play the game instead of crying that something is OP
27 Apr 2022, 07:32 AM
#87
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

Again a thread about a allied faction having any or slight edge somewhere being made out to be to good in stats/synergy or otherwise, god forbid a axis faction gets the same scrutony from the op.

This possible opening wich requires a commander to get agressive at the expense of map control and mp/fuel early on and its still not without big risk. Nothing gamebreaking about it. It comes at the expense of 2 things and you gain one advantidge. Its not some sort of sweat deal with no downsides. Wich means it is not op nor deservings of nerfs.
27 Apr 2022, 07:53 AM
#88
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3111 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2022, 06:52 AMVipper

Nice to see that you actually did some test. Do know appreciate the effect of distance?

I thought after 5 pages of theocrafting, at least a basic test was necessary.

Since you keep dodging the actual points I made, I'm out of this discussion. Good luck with this one and see you in the next one.
27 Apr 2022, 09:06 AM
#89
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1


I thought after 5 pages of theocrafting, at least a basic test was necessary.

The theorycrafting was not from my side since I am probably one of the few people posting in this thread that actual has in game experience with the this tactic.


Since you keep dodging the actual points I made, I'm out of this discussion. Good luck with this one and see you in the next one.

From where I stand you are the one dodging the the questions about distance and how it increases the advantage.

As for the point made by others about "map control" in order to one to have a chance to win the initial engagement one has to move all his unit to the point of interest so "map control" is equal or point of interest lost.


27 Apr 2022, 09:39 AM
#90
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1




Instead of trolling Hannibal you could actually learn how to play the game instead of crying that something is OP

I am not trolling Hannibal at all, I am taking him very seriously, he is one of the few people who post things that are relevant to this thread.
27 Apr 2022, 10:25 AM
#91
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2996 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Apr 2022, 16:34 PMVipper
Lets see what stat have to say then:

EFH Pioneers = 4*80/1 = 320
EFH Assault grenadier = 5*80/0.95 = 421
EFP Assault IS = 5*80/0.97 = 412
EFP Ro.Eng = 4*80/0.9 = 355
EFP assault Engineers = 5*80/0.9 = 444
EFP RoRE = 5*80/0.9 = 444


Assault Engineers spawn with 1.0 target size, not 0.9.


But I have to agree here with the people that you are exaggerating completely about this strat, Vipper.

Yes, you can force retreats against lonely squads, even make them waste a faust with the fast repair speed of RoRe. But lets talk about the Elephant in the room now:

1) against a Kubel + sp, this strat is an absolute joke, and many people combine these 2 units at start

2) In teamgames, good axis players will bunch up their army as soon as possible believe it or not. Especially when they expect a scout car. And then this strat sucks as well... nobody is stupid enough to walk on the corner of the map with a lonely gren/volk in exposed positions when they know what you're trying to do here

3) Forcing a retreat on 1 squad doesnt matter, and afterwards smart axis players will not let that happen again
27 Apr 2022, 10:30 AM
#92
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

Someone just tried this tactic in my last game and it didn't go well for him, he quite before 5 minutes after losing the UC and the squad.

I think the strat is much more powerful with the assault tommies, they have a really killing power. It also need to be executed asap because once there is a faust its over so I guess the first easy counter is simply to not over extend until having faust or enough firepower to repel the UC/squad inside.
27 Apr 2022, 13:26 PM
#94
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1



Assault Engineers spawn with 1.0 target size, not 0.9.

According to patch notes

"Assault Engineers (All variants)
Assault Engineers are being boosted to better reflect their short-range nature and their support role.

- Population from 8 to 7
- Received accuracy from 1 to 0.9"


But I have to agree here with the people that you are exaggerating completely about this strat, Vipper.


Read OP and try to find the exaggeration:
jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2022, 17:59 PMVipper
The RoRe (Royal engineer Recovery Squad) has seen many buffs since it the beginning of the game with the latest becoming available at CP 0 with 5 entities/stens and able to get Flamers. (and vet 1 sten bonus change)

The units still has superior repair speed over Engineer and smoke grenades and can upgrade with flamer and heavy sappers upgrade.

Now the synergy of this unit with UC has become very good since the UC can be used to drop them aggressively without taking casualties and the can repair a UC very fast.

Imo the combo should be looked.


Do you describe the sentence "Imo the combo should be looked." as "exaggerating completely"


Yes, you can force retreats against lonely squads, even make them waste a faust with the fast repair speed of RoRe. But lets talk about the Elephant in the room now:

1) against a Kubel + sp, this strat is an absolute joke, and many people combine these 2 units at start

1) 1 IS + UC + Rore can not deal with Kubel+SP? As I already pointed out the strategy works better in large maps (that usually come in large modes).


2) In teamgames, good axis players will bunch up their army as soon as possible believe it or not. Especially when they expect a scout car. And then this strat sucks as well... nobody is stupid enough to walk on the corner of the map with a lonely gren/volk in exposed positions when they know what you're trying to do here

I full aware of that because it is what I usually do, try explaining that to people who claim that by concentrating the early force in one spot you giving away map control in team-games.



3) Forcing a retreat on 1 squad doesnt matter, and afterwards smart axis players will not let that happen again

So forcing a sturmpioneer or HMG42 to retreat from the initial fight in map like steppes or red ball express does not matter?
27 Apr 2022, 15:21 PM
#95
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 786 | Subs: 1



They have to sacrifice map control to do that though.


it depends

in 1v1 you are already hurting yourself by playing UKF, so it matters little

in team mode, its meta to cap 1 of 2 fuel points and this sort of cheese lets you get a mobile attack and quick
27 Apr 2022, 21:58 PM
#96
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2996 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2022, 13:26 PMVipper




So forcing a sturmpioneer or HMG42 to retreat from the initial fight in map like steppes or red ball express does not matter?



Neither a sturmpio nor a MG42 should do unsupported solo actions at the frontline at the beginning of the match when you look into fog of war and notice you are against brits. Especially not on a map like Steppes :lol: The only exception for this is rushing a strong house, where UC + engineer can't do anything against you anyway.
28 Apr 2022, 05:46 AM
#98
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1




Neither a sturmpio nor a MG42 should do unsupported solo actions at the frontline at the beginning of the match when you look into fog of war and notice you are against brits. Especially not on a map like Steppes :lol: The only exception for this is rushing a strong house, where UC + engineer can't do anything against you anyway.

You mean like sending the SP to secure the fuel?

And who said anything about unsupported?
You think that a SP will not forced to retreat if he is focused fired by IS+UC+RoRe

The combination of UC and CP 0 call in infatry (ASIS/RoRe/RaidSec) allows UKF player to concentrate units faster to the initial point of interest.

Glad to see that we are past the " exaggerating completely" line of arguing.
28 Apr 2022, 10:52 AM
#99
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 786 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Apr 2022, 05:46 AMVipper

You mean like sending the SP to secure the fuel?

And who said anything about unsupported?
You think that a SP will not forced to retreat if he is focused fired by IS+UC+RoRe

The combination of UC and CP 0 call in infatry (ASIS/RoRe/RaidSec) allows UKF player to concentrate units faster to the initial point of interest.

Glad to see that we are past the " exaggerating completely" line of arguing.


an OKW gets hold of a mere sturmpioneer and magically cant build either a kubelwagen or a volksgren squad (or better, a pfusilier squad) to counter the ~500 or so manpower that UKF already invests in the first 30 seconds of a game



the "broken" UC rush into your MG or volks squad immediately fails if you instead went for pfusilier or a gren squad (and both can arrive more or less when the UC does)


Voila, no "overpowered" cheese strat fucking you up, you proceed to play a normal match vs the UKF. call a mod to lock this thread and save some dignity, if you have any.
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