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USF Pathfinder spam is too efficient (2v2)

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4 Jul 2022, 10:25 AM
#281
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13091 | Subs: 1


I mean I do, but that's an odd way to phrase that I disagreed with them being more expensive that most mains, which is what you claimed, because both statements are quite inaccurate.

This what I have posted:
"In sort the are clearly more expensive than grenadiers,vg , conscripts and Penals so you original claim of similar price simply does not hold water."

If you agree with something in that sentence feel free to explain with what and why.


I definitely don't agree to that either. The way you phrased your statement is that you're adding the truck and setup on top of Panzerfusiliers, which does not make sense either.
I've always maintained that teching can't be added to unit costs throughout a ton of discussions, since it makes cost distribution and all arguments drawn from that fully arbitrary.

Then what you should ask and answer to your yourself is why choose to disagree with me and not rumartinez89 who actually brought tech cost into equation (I am not actually interested in the answer). I simply pointed that if one want to add tech for penal one has needs to add it for PF.


Those units have their own issues, but at least those have a clear and exploitable weakness. Panzerfusiliers don't.

No matter if there "clear and exploitable weakness" there are two thread here about the problems with Pathfinders and this is one of them.
4 Jul 2022, 12:12 PM
#282
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 671 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jul 2022, 08:04 AMVipper

It seem that you have trouble understanding what you reading.

PF before being upgrade cost 270 manpower, are 5 men squad with worse DPS than VGs. That makes them on the least cost efficient mainline infatry.



yeah because you are supposed to wait their infantry upgrades dipshit
4 Jul 2022, 12:19 PM
#283
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 671 | Subs: 1



Those units have their own issues, but at least those have a clear and exploitable weakness. Panzerfusiliers don't.


fusiliers' weakness stems in their early game (which only lasts like 5 minutes anyway) lack of defense if a full HP soviet six man squad manages to close in on them, they simply lose the engagement if that occurs.


also vipper forgot that tommies need upwards of 45 fuel and ~300 manpower of sideteching and then ~80 muni per squad + 45 muni per squad to boost them to their optimal level compared pf needing 80 muni and a truck (whose price doesnt matter as you get the truck anyway)
4 Jul 2022, 12:39 PM
#284
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13091 | Subs: 1




yeah because you are supposed to wait their infantry upgrades dipshit

Glad that you finally understood what I posted and thus that your response was simply wrong.

Now PLS try to tone down the personal insults.

4 Jul 2022, 14:20 PM
#286
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2807 | Subs: 2



fusiliers' weakness stems in their early game (which only lasts like 5 minutes anyway) lack of defense if a full HP soviet six man squad manages to close in on them, they simply lose the engagement if that occurs.


also vipper forgot that tommies need upwards of 45 fuel and ~300 manpower of sideteching and then ~80 muni per squad + 45 muni per squad to boost them to their optimal level compared pf needing 80 muni and a truck (whose price doesnt matter as you get the truck anyway)

They are definitely bad early, but just as you I don't think this compensates for the very strong performance in the mid to late game. Upgrades will start at around the 5-6 minute mark and you'll upgrade roughly one squad every two minutes (depending how conservative you spend the munitions) and probably be done by minute 10.

UKF and also USF side techs (even USF ambulance) are a mechanisms to move costs from the main tech branch. Especially the pure UKF main tech path would be stupidly cheap otherwise. Axis also unlock upgrades during their main tech, meaning parts of their main tech cost can be attributed to unlocking the upgrade. Long story short: Counting Allied side techs towards the squad cost does not make much sense.
4 Jul 2022, 15:11 PM
#287
avatar of thekessvn

Posts: 101


Long story short: Counting Allied side techs towards the squad cost does not make much sense.

Now the problem begin, without side tech (weapon rack, nade, snare, boster...}. Alies mainline inf lost their power overtime. Now we back to same problems everytime in 2v2 match:
- Has to stick in cover > less agressive attack meaning you give Axis a room to breath.
- Has to depend on LV, support weapon > easily zoned out by axis superior weapon team.
- has to take more bleed and spend more mirco than enemies (which is cause more stress and less pay attention].
Logically, Everyone will spam long range inf because why not do the same as axis. Not to mention a fucking combo: OST Jeager armor + OKW Overwatch just straight OP.
4 Jul 2022, 15:56 PM
#288
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 949 | Subs: 1


Now the problem begin, without side tech (weapon rack, nade, snare, boster...}. Alies mainline inf lost their power overtime. Now we back to same problems everytime in 2v2 match:
- Has to stick in cover > less agressive attack meaning you give Axis a room to breath.
- Has to depend on LV, support weapon > easily zoned out by axis superior weapon team.
- has to take more bleed and spend more mirco than enemies (which is cause more stress and less pay attention].
Logically, Everyone will spam long range inf because why not do the same as axis. Not to mention a fucking combo: OST Jeager armor + OKW Overwatch just straight OP.


Its been told for ages, yet, people still bring this augment, that allies "side grades" put them into a disadvantage, despite them, while being optional, are still essential. Guess what, USF\UKF are supposed to be inferior to Axis without side grades and they are supposed to be teched up.

Allies "side grades" are not side grades, but artificial way to delay Allies teching. Simple math here, to unlock tanks:

USF: 170 fuel + 10 for heal
UKF: 145 fuel
OKW: 190 Fuel (Med+T3), 195 (Mech+T3)
Ostheer: 175 Fuel (T1+T2+T3), 165 (T2+T3), 210 (T1...T4), 200 (T2...T4)
Soviet: 190 (T1+T3+T4), 195 (T2+T3+T4)

After that if you add up cost of the first medium tank, you end up with:

USF: 290 Fuel (add rak 305 fuel)
UKF: 255 Fuel (add bolster + raks 300 fuel)
Ostheer 295 fuel (with skips 285 fuel)
Soviet 280 Fuel/285 fuel (295\300 with nades)
OKW: 330 Fuel (with medic skip 320 fuel, with Mech 335 fuel)

Now, fastest faction to get tanks is Ostheer as it is, unless they invest into T4.

MP vise:
UKF: 460MP (710 with raks+bolster)
USF: 490MP (890 raks+heal)
Ostheer: with different paths + heal ~900-1000MP
Soviet: 640 (990 nades+meds)
OKW: 640 (full med + T3)

And MP vise OKW has advantage.

After that we can also, start counting early LVs, different builds and why not, but imo this would be more or less irrelevant since over-all picture would be the same.

Long story short: Allies upgrades are not optional, they are part of your tech, which you can just chose when to unlock.
4 Jul 2022, 16:47 PM
#289
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2807 | Subs: 2


Now the problem begin, without side tech (weapon rack, nade, snare, boster...}. Alies mainline inf lost their power overtime. Now we back to same problems everytime in 2v2 match:
- Has to stick in cover > less agressive attack meaning you give Axis a room to breath.
- Has to depend on LV, support weapon > easily zoned out by axis superior weapon team.
- has to take more bleed and spend more mirco than enemies (which is cause more stress and less pay attention].
Logically, Everyone will spam long range inf because why not do the same as axis. Not to mention a fucking combo: OST Jeager armor + OKW Overwatch just straight OP.

I don't understand how this relates to side techs and cost.

I can just second what Gachigasm said: you're fully supposed to get all side techs, you're just given the option when you will get them. That does not mean that it is viable to ditch all of them until after your first tank, usually the decision is which one you will unlock after your first LV and the rest will be bought after your medium.
After all, they don't work well, the 'versatile Allies' design that Relic intended held up badly and we're stuck with some remnants of that.
4 Jul 2022, 18:13 PM
#290
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1442

The only annoying thing about the USF/UKF sidetech racks is that you have to manually pick them up in base. Otherwise it's a valid sidetech that does not weaken USF in any way. It would be better if you also had the option like captain/lieutenant to upgrade one/two BARs/Zooks (or just pick them up, your choice). Especially with the pizza base where you shift-click to take up the weapon(or two) and go to the frontline, only to notice 20 seconds later that the extremely annoying/fu**ing PIZZA base is blocking you and each other. If only Relic allowed a pizza base re-design. Aneurysm-inducing.
Other than that, the side techs are completely valid and legit for USF/UKF
4 Jul 2022, 18:39 PM
#291
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13091 | Subs: 1

The only annoying thing about the USF/UKF sidetech racks is that you have to manually pick them up in base. Otherwise it's a valid sidetech that does not weaken USF in any way. It would be better if you also had the option like captain/lieutenant to upgrade one/two BARs/Zooks (or just pick them up, your choice). Especially with the pizza base where you shift-click to take up the weapon(or two) and go to the frontline, only to notice 20 seconds later that the extremely annoying/fu**ing PIZZA base is blocking you and each other. If only Relic allowed a pizza base re-design. Aneurysm-inducing.
Other than that, the side techs are completely valid and legit for USF/UKF

Can we get back on topic which is Pathfinders?
4 Jul 2022, 20:48 PM
#292
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 713

Yeah nothing needs changed with Paths. Shouldnt of over nerfed every fucking other USF option. .50cal cannot pin more than one squad unless they literally stack them up top of eachother and just gets lmg sniped by the time it comes, only time it makes sense is airborne when it cost less and can be dropped on the front lines. Its ap bullets even far inferior to both axis mgs makes zero sense. Pak howie now mostly a barrage tool instead of a bleeding tool. Stuart long ago use to be usf saving grace then too many crys about it chasing down and wiping 1 man squads when i had good AI? As if 222 and luchs cannot
do that. Mortar is a gloriefied smoke machine thats forced on you against wher and makes you sacrifice more infantry presence and nulls the advantage you might have of having more mobile units. Dont you think if there was a better option USF players would use it lmao how we got to paths blob is just the result mostly of rifles being lame ducks and having no supporting units worth a shit around them.
4 Jul 2022, 23:03 PM
#293
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13091 | Subs: 1

First change I would try would be to make "critical kill" a timed ability and that goes for GLI also.

The change would serve as:
1) A way to inform the player of existence of the mechanism
2) As an anti spam mechanism
3) As a way of increasing player input and decision making
5 Jul 2022, 03:24 AM
#294
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 260


After all, they don't work well, the 'versatile Allies' design that Relic intended held up badly and we're stuck with some remnants of thatt.


1/ Oh, In fact, the 'versatile Allies' design come around Rifleman was butcher down in the name of Balance
for example:
+ Nerfing .50 cal strongest point ( short set up time, fast aim time ) to support Rifleman moverment. We dont need better AP shell since .50 cal Rate of fire and arc fire is terrible. WE JUST NEED a machine that follow Rifleman.
+ Nerfing Pak Howie in worst way ever. Cutting both autofire and barrage and say... " hey. we give you 6 man weapon team, now fuck off". Turn down, Rifleman no longer had a good indirect fire solution to deal with fortifiy position. sad thing vet 1, vet 2 give Pak two more shell type. not performance buff ...
+ Changing ... well, LV spike in weird way ever. M20 being faster than Armorer car for.. 3 minutes or something. M5 stuart take 60 fuel and kill around 12-15 inf per game, having useless ability for .... ever. Form my repective view. M5 stuart is the worst LV in term of P/P.
2/ Nerfing rifleman in hash way, Vet 3 high RA bonus instead of separating to vet 1 and vet 3, balance team just straigh up delete it. At same time they nerf mid range dps so OKW can careless charging Sturm and say fuck you ?. Did they give anything back beside snare tech ( Still not fix buggy snare].

3/ Now come with the price:

USF: 170 fuel + 10 for heal
UKF: 145 fuel
OKW: 190 Fuel (Med+T3), 195 (Mech+T3)
Ostheer: 175 Fuel (T1+T2+T3), 165 (T2+T3), 210 (T1...T4), 200 (T2...T4)
Soviet: 190 (T1+T3+T4), 195 (T2+T3+T4)

After that if you add up cost of the first medium tank, you end up with:

USF: 290 Fuel (add rak 305 fuel)
UKF: 255 Fuel (add bolster + raks 300 fuel)
Ostheer 295 fuel (with skips 285 fuel)
Soviet 280 Fuel/285 fuel (295\300 with nades)
OKW: 330 Fuel (with medic skip 320 fuel, with Mech 335 fuel)

Now, fastest faction to get tanks is Ostheer as it is, unless they invest into T4.

MP vise:
UKF: 460MP (710 with raks+bolster)
USF: 490MP (890 raks+heal)
Ostheer: with different paths + heal ~900-1000MP
Soviet: 640 (990 nades+meds)
OKW: 640 (full med + T3)

Jugde by number, USF would be ok, right ?. the answer is no.
+ In case of no weapon, nade update. My Rifleman had to deal with Volk, Sturm, gren, Pzgren full power (snare, nade, stun nade, bundle nade, lava nade, lmg, stg44....). Extra officer powerspike is just extra boby to shoot.
+ Now I buy LV, From M20 to AAHT. Get Counter by pak, rak and get fucked hard by Axis LV in term of performance / price. AAHT is the last resort anyway.
+ How about go dual Officer and stall for tank: good, Now you need pay 10fuel for healing, 15 fuel for weapon rack, nade to hold the bleed and popcap penalty = 35f + 35f + 10f + 15f + 120F = 215f.
+ How about M4 ?. haha, get rolled by pz4 in every timeframe.

In the end, the 'versatile Allies' design as non doctrine is down straght shithole. So USF have a right to pick path stat to cosplay OST.
Also Never Forget M8 scout, take a whole patch to nerfed it to the ground despite THIS FUCKING COMMUNITY told them that nerf was too much and later they buff barrage without testing it performance in squad of 2. LMAO
5 Jul 2022, 07:18 AM
#296
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3459 | Subs: 1




UKF and also USF side techs (even USF ambulance) are a mechanisms to move costs from the main tech branch. Especially the pure UKF main tech path would be stupidly cheap otherwise. Axis also unlock upgrades during their main tech, meaning parts of their main tech cost can be attributed to unlocking the upgrade. Long story short: Counting Allied side techs towards the squad cost does not make much sense.


I don't know where you took this idea from. USF was meant to be versatile with superior infantry you could decide to upgrade at side cost to be more powerful or keeping them being over time on par with cheaper/upgraded Axis infantry and relying on LVs or fast medium tanks.
When people complains about how boring 3xRM is every game, that's because the decision making part of USF BO was never meant to be on the units you build but side techs used you unlock.

What went wrong with this design is that upgrading RM which were already superior lead to inevitable snowball effect every game.

Today we're far from here, we're at a point where RM aren't naturally superior anymore to any other infantry and their side tech are mandatory for them to compete because of the many balance decisions taken over time with little reflexion on the impact with USF faction.

Today more than ever, side tech must be taken in account in RM's cost. One of the reason Airborn is popular isn't only because Path but also Para which don't need any side cost to be equiped with LMG and grenades.
Side tech aren't gate, they were optional at the beginning and now mandatory. And this is because they are mandatory that the USF design as a whole is broken today.
5 Jul 2022, 09:03 AM
#299
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 949 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jul 2022, 07:18 AMEsxile

Side tech aren't gate, they were optional at the beginning and now mandatory. And this is because they are mandatory that the USF design as a whole is broken today.


Why its broken? USF literally is on pair with any other faction if they invest into either nades or raks, with the total amount of resources spent. Hell, even if they invest into raks+nades, they will be like 15 fuel and 50 MP behind which is less then 15 seconds of income.

The only questionable part is that you have to retreat to the base in order to upgrade your inf, which is not a problem in 1v1\2v2 but its frustrating in 3v3\4v4. Without side grades, USF has second cheapest teching in the game, thats why side grades are mandatory. Getting USF sidegrades arent putting you in any resource disadvantage what so ever, against OKW\Ost.

The only single valid concern about USF is that they have to chose to have either MG or AT gun, both of which are kinda needed sometimes. Other then that airborn is just used for cheesing USF tech tree, abusing idiotic "snipe mechanic" and rushing scotts because of the saved resources, plain and simple. Abusing the fact that faction costs\tech were balanced with side tech in mind, and airborn is allowing you to just ignore it.

And, no offence, but arguments about "rifle performance", sidegrades and why not, which ppl bring here in defence of Airborn meta are utter bullshit.

USF literally has infantry company, which allow you to skip weapon rak in favor of nades\skip, makes rifleman be actually good on open maps and trade well with Axis inf at ranges, allow USF to have mines, allow USF to have proper cover, allow USF to have proper mortar and artillery. Covers almost every single point why usf is on "life support" and the weakest faction.

YET for some reason every one abuses Scottfinder meta, wonder why.
5 Jul 2022, 09:15 AM
#300
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3459 | Subs: 1



Why its broken? USF literally is on pair with any other faction if they invest into either nades or raks,


Aren't we on a topic complaining about how everyone use Path to avoid riflemen? But you nailed it, they are on pair with other faction which is the problem since riflemen must have an edge to function. investing on nades and raks should make them superior, not on pair.

Now you can disagree if you want and continue to wonder why nodoby use them and spam Pathfinders.
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