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USF Pathfinder spam is too efficient (2v2)

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2 Jul 2022, 23:29 PM
#261
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 728

They are almost unenjoyable as your profile pic. They are garbage and lose in every realistic battle against volks because of useless starting RE and strong sturm start even if you play it well by then volks will be in green cover, get bars dosent matter even if volks lose the advantage just throw incedinery nade that they desperately needed garrison clearing tool when its more so used as a cover denial volks win tool. in wich many times your forced to assualt losing 2 riflemen models on the way and they shoot blanks anyway. Against wher its just run into mg spam and they have to really fuck up mg placement/micro for rifles to win with maps that support axis favored mg arc lanes and long range green cover brought to you by the balance team
2 Jul 2022, 23:42 PM
#262
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 728

Even with 1919s rifles still suck little better but still suck and not able to keep pace with inevitable obers or any axis elite infantry, now we could play i had to choose a doctrine game buts thats all bullshit when almost every wheraboo doct has elite infantry and almost all of them have snares, thenthe other argument fusilers are meant to replace volks? Really paths are meant to replace rifles give them a snare
3 Jul 2022, 00:05 AM
#263
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1108 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jul 2022, 23:42 PMRocket
elite infantry and almost all of them have snares,


Name 1 Axis elite inf, which has snares, besides Jaeger command squad, please :snfPeter:
3 Jul 2022, 01:04 AM
#264
avatar of Reverb

Posts: 301



Name 1 Axis elite inf, which has snares, besides Jaeger command squad, please :snfPeter:


panzerfusiliers!!!
3 Jul 2022, 01:17 AM
#265
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 728

Apparently upgraded fusilers arent considered elite infantry even tho they can toe to toe with vet3 1919 airborned and ultimately surpass them with vet if you consider mp and pop cost (easily blobable unlike airborne)
3 Jul 2022, 07:18 AM
#266
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13472 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jul 2022, 01:17 AMRocket
Apparently upgraded fusilers arent considered elite infantry even tho they can toe to toe with vet3 1919 airborned and ultimately surpass them with vet if you consider mp and pop cost (easily blobable unlike airborne)

True they are no considered elite infatry:

"Panzerfusilliers

The way Panzerfusiliers are deployed has been changed to better match their role as an alternative mainline infantry to Volksgrenadiers. They will be slightly weaker than Volksgrenadiers at the start but have access to the Anti-Tank Rifle Grenades, slightly better combat veterancy, and more powerful upgrades, giving them increased power in the late game. This should make for interesting choices and compositions."
3 Jul 2022, 08:02 AM
#267
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

The addition of the 6th man with the upgrade puts fussies in elite territory imo. At about the same elite level of gaurds, not the best but defenitly elite.
3 Jul 2022, 14:16 PM
#268
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 599

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jul 2022, 07:18 AMVipper

True they are no considered elite infatry:

"Panzerfusilliers

The way Panzerfusiliers are deployed has been changed to better match their role as an alternative mainline infantry to Volksgrenadiers. They will be slightly weaker than Volksgrenadiers at the start but have access to the Anti-Tank Rifle Grenades, slightly better combat veterancy, and more powerful upgrades, giving them increased power in the late game. This should make for interesting choices and compositions."


I guess the question is are they elite compared to what. Compared to Falls/Obers they fall short of being elite but compared to other mainlines they are significantly better.

Compared to most mains they have better vision, better damage while moving, similar damage stationary, similar price, flare, sprint, similar durability to Allied squads, techless AT nade.

They are all around better than VG while only being weaker than them for the first 4-5 mins of the game which truly is not that much time.

Most would argue that Rifles and Penals are semi-elite units, Rifles with Bars and vet while Penals start with SVT which are good and have great combat VET. Looking at Rifles, they really only outclass them if they are not moving at point blank range. Best way to do this is to be behind cover which they can only build with a commander or crappy tank traps. If both units are moving, the G43 PF will dominate the Rifleman while having access to flares and increased vision to pick and choose engagements. They literally are better Pathfinders while also having access to snares.

Penals are a bit of a weird match up as they dominate pretty much every unit at the start of the game. However once the G43 upgrades come online this almost completely reverses. They are both 6 man squads with the same RA vet and non-vet yet the G43 upgrade is a buff at all ranges. Yet PF have access to snares so they don't have LV weakness and they are not much weaker at long range compared to Penals which is a bit strange. Using Serelia, Penals do 3.4 DPS per model at max range while G43 do ~ 3 DPS and Kar do ~ 2.8 DPS for a grand difference of 3 DPS per squad. The difference should actually be closer since Serelia is using the old Penal VET3 acc instead of the newer 20%.

That seems to be to close for a long range squad vs close/mid range specialist. I think losing the 6th man would be enough to open the gap at range while also equalizing the Rifle/PF mid range engagements.

Sorry for the disjointed thoughts typing this between pts at work.
3 Jul 2022, 19:29 PM
#269
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13472 | Subs: 1



I guess the question is are they elite compared to what. Compared to Falls/Obers they fall short of being elite but compared to other mainlines they are significantly better.

Compared to most mains they have better vision, better damage while moving, similar damage stationary, similar price, flare, sprint, similar durability to Allied squads, techless AT nade.

They are all around better than VG while only being weaker than them for the first 4-5 mins of the game which truly is not that much time.
....

Not really:
The cost of g43 PFs you are comparing is 295 manpower+80 mu and one has to set up a track before one can even upgrade them.

So compared to most "mains" they more expensive.

Ungraded PF at 270 are simply one of the worse "main" when it come to cost efficiency.
3 Jul 2022, 20:52 PM
#270
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 599

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jul 2022, 19:29 PMVipper

Not really:
The cost of g43 PFs you are comparing is 295 manpower+80 mu and one has to set up a track before one can even upgrade them.

So compared to most "mains" they more expensive.

Ungraded PF at 270 are simply one of the worse "main" when it come to cost efficiency.


Rifles need weapon rack unlock and double bars to compete which make them more expensive and Penals are a tech choice which is cost a building, constructing said building and then building 290 mp unit. The only restriction on PF is that it requires a commander choice aside from that they can chooses meds or mech.

Comparing cost they really are only expensive compared to cons/grens. Only at the beginning of a match are they the worse main. But they come with a tech less snare that helps cover a major faction weakness. And the requirement of a tech truck being set is for time gating the upgrade. It does not factor into cost as the building would be needed regardless of strums/JLI/VG.
4 Jul 2022, 04:32 AM
#271
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1


The only restriction on PF is that it requires a commander choice aside from that they can chooses meds or mech.



Not to mention the commanders they came from are all very good too.
4 Jul 2022, 04:35 AM
#272
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 783 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jul 2022, 19:29 PMVipper

Not really:
The cost of g43 PFs you are comparing is 295 manpower+80 mu and one has to set up a track before one can even upgrade them.

So compared to most "mains" they more expensive.

Ungraded PF at 270 are simply one of the worse "main" when it come to cost efficiency.


universally agreed to be essentially the best mainline infantry in team mode games and probably in 1v1s as well --->>>> "But...bro...they aren't cost effective!!" (they are)
4 Jul 2022, 04:41 AM
#273
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jul 2022, 19:29 PMVipper

Not really:
The cost of g43 PFs you are comparing is 295 manpower+80 mu and one has to set up a track before one can even upgrade them.



That are:
- Only 15mp more than a rifle and while still being much cheaper muntion-whise.
- Only 5mp more than penal while being at least on par on combat with more utilities.
- At the sametime fully kited out section are 298mp + 90muni for brens + 40 to 45 for pyro/medic and only can come out on top in certain farvorable scenarios namely camping sandbags but Pf happened to have the ability to pick the fight.
4 Jul 2022, 04:44 AM
#274
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jul 2022, 19:29 PMVipper


So compared to most "mains" they more expensive.



being cheaper in either Mp or muni than rifle/section/penal => More expensive than most mainline ?
4 Jul 2022, 07:59 AM
#275
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13472 | Subs: 1



Rifles need weapon rack unlock and double bars to compete which make them more expensive and Penals are a tech choice which is cost a building, constructing said building and then building 290 mp unit. The only restriction on PF is that it requires a commander choice aside from that they can chooses meds or mech.

No matter how much spin you put at it Penal cost 290 and G43 FP cost 295 manpower+80 mu. When it come to tech cost PF have more expensive tech so they Penal are clearly cheaper.


Comparing cost they really are only expensive compared to cons/grens. Only at the beginning of a match are they
the worse main. But they come with a tech less snare that helps cover a major faction weakness. And the requirement of a tech truck being set is for time gating the upgrade. It does not factor into cost as the building would be needed regardless of strums/JLI/VG.

In sort the are clearly more expensive than grenadiers,vg , conscripts and Penals so you original claim of similar price simply does not hold water.

But this thread is about Pathfinder and PF, if you want to talk about PF I suggest you start a thread about them.
4 Jul 2022, 08:04 AM
#276
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13472 | Subs: 1



universally agreed to be essentially the best mainline infantry in team mode games and probably in 1v1s as well --->>>> "But...bro...they aren't cost effective!!" (they are)

It seem that you have trouble understanding what you reading.

PF before being upgrade cost 270 manpower, are 5 men squad with worse DPS than VGs. That makes them on the least cost efficient mainline infatry.
4 Jul 2022, 08:46 AM
#277
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3085 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jul 2022, 19:29 PMVipper

Not really:
The cost of g43 PFs you are comparing is 295 manpower+80 mu and one has to set up a track before one can even upgrade them.

So compared to most "mains" they more expensive.

Ungraded PF at 270 are simply one of the worse "main" when it come to cost efficiency.

Their costs are pretty is pretty much situated in the middle, a bit below the cost of the most expensive main lines of USF and UKF. The difference in MP buy cost amortises itself very quickly due to the lower reinforcement cost.

The fact that there needs a truck to be set up does not add to their cost. What it actually means is that OKW has one of the quickest possibilities to upgrade their squads in a viable build order.

For their price they also come with a lot of utility. Damage, mobility, bleed, recon, grenade and snare, optionally they have a second upgrade path. They even come in very good commanders. I'd say Panzerfusiliers are the most complete main line infantry once they are upgraded.
4 Jul 2022, 09:03 AM
#278
avatar of Grim

Posts: 1093

G43 PF's are definitely toeing the territory of 'elite' infantry close enough for it not to be worth arguing over.

They could easily be considered the best infantry in team games once they have their G43 upgrade and sixth man.

The double panzershreck upgrade isn't exactly shabby either although it is often ignored in the current double/triple rak meta.
4 Jul 2022, 09:04 AM
#279
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13472 | Subs: 1


Their costs are pretty is pretty much situated in the middle, a bit below the cost of the most expensive main lines of USF and UKF. The difference in MP buy cost amortises itself very quickly due to the lower reinforcement cost.

Glad to see that you agree that they do not "similar price to most mains"


The fact that there needs a truck to be set up does not add to their cost. What it actually means is that OKW has one of the quickest possibilities to upgrade their squads in a viable build order.

You might want to point out that rumartinez89 that wants to take into account the T1 of Penals.


For their price they also come with a lot of utility. Damage, mobility, bleed, recon, grenade and snare, optionally they have a second upgrade path. They even come in very good commanders. I'd say Panzerfusiliers are the most complete main line infantry once they are upgraded.

Yes they are pretty good once upgraded.

They are also currently badly designed the same way Penal and Pathfinder (which is the topic on this thread) are.
4 Jul 2022, 10:04 AM
#280
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3085 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jul 2022, 09:04 AMVipper

Glad to see that you agree that they do not "similar price to most mains"

I mean I do, but that's an odd way to phrase that I disagreed with them being more expensive that most mains, which is what you claimed, because both statements are quite inaccurate.

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jul 2022, 09:04 AMVipper
You might want to point out that rumartinez89 that wants to take into account the T1 of Penals.

I definitely don't agree to that either. The way you phrased your statement is that you're adding the truck and setup on top of Panzerfusiliers, which does not make sense either.
I've always maintained that teching can't be added to unit costs throughout a ton of discussions, since it makes cost distribution and all arguments drawn from that fully arbitrary.

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jul 2022, 09:04 AMVipper
Yes they are pretty good once upgraded.

They are also currently badly designed the same way Penal and Pathfinder (which is the topic on this thread) are.

Those units have their own issues, but at least those have a clear and exploitable weakness. Panzerfusiliers don't.
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