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Pioneers - the biggest broken OST unit.

15 Feb 2022, 14:17 PM
#1
avatar of Riley

Posts: 268

Pios have sight range 40. This means that they can know in advance where the vickers or maxim is located. And suppress your machine gun. For a long time I did not understand how the mg42 was shooting at me from the fog of war. Everything turned out to be simple - this is the sight range of the pioneers. How easily I take fuel or another important point in the early-early game, this is guaranteed.


This is not a problem in general, it is only debut problem and the solution to the problem is very simple. Move the sight range 40 to the 1 vet. The base sight range should be 35, like other units: combat eng, royal eng, and RE. It made more sense to give such to the rear echelon in order to coordinate the mortar. I remember Sturmäger talking about the pioneers a long time ago, but then no one else paid any attention to it.
15 Feb 2022, 14:23 PM
#2
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2756 | Subs: 4

Wait until you find out about the sight range of Kubels, M3s, Pathfinders and snipers who all have essentially the same timing :O
15 Feb 2022, 14:28 PM
#3
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13267 | Subs: 1

From all the rants I have read this title "Pioneers - the biggest broken OST unit" deserves some sort a prize...

Using hyperboles does not really help one to promote his point on the contrary it has the opposite effect, so we can please cut down them a bit.
15 Feb 2022, 14:30 PM
#4
avatar of Riley

Posts: 268

Wait until you find out about the sight range of Kubels, M3s, Pathfinders and snipers who all have essentially the same timing :O


You started the tantrum ahead of time. Read carefully again what I wrote.
15 Feb 2022, 14:55 PM
#5
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1482

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Feb 2022, 14:17 PMRiley
Pios have sight range 40. This means that they can know in advance where the vickers or maxim is located. And suppress your machine gun. For a long time I did not understand how the mg42 was shooting at me from the fog of war. Everything turned out to be simple - this is the sight range of the pioneers. How easily I take fuel or another important point in the early-early game, this is guaranteed.


This is not a problem in general, it is only debut problem and the solution to the problem is very simple. Move the sight range 40 to the 1 vet. The base sight range should be 35, like other units: combat eng, royal eng, and RE. It made more sense to give such to the rear echelon in order to coordinate the mortar. I remember Sturmäger talking about the pioneers a long time ago, but then no one else paid any attention to it.


It's actually 42 range. They ain't broken though. Giving them 42 range at vet1 would nerf them a bit in 3v3 and 4v4 I guess. Don't know how that would impact 1v1 and 2v2. Maybe that would be too big of a nerf. Who knows.
15 Feb 2022, 15:17 PM
#6
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3475 | Subs: 1

The question is do they still need it? Ostheer received various buff since then and we see today how the HMG42 can abuse of it.
15 Feb 2022, 15:33 PM
#7
avatar of Riley

Posts: 268



It's actually 42 range. They ain't broken though. Giving them 42 range at vet1 would nerf them a bit in 3v3 and 4v4 I guess. Don't know how that would impact 1v1 and 2v2. Maybe that would be too big of a nerf. Who knows.


what would be the argument? Why do they even need it? The Brits does not have any unit at the start of the game with a sight range more 35.
15 Feb 2022, 15:39 PM
#8
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1183

You must be new.

Wait till he finds out about Path spamming, Kubelwagens and the all important sniper that exist in the game Company of Heroes 2.
15 Feb 2022, 15:41 PM
#9
avatar of Riley

Posts: 268

You must be new.

Wait till he finds out about Path spamming, Kubelwagens and the all important sniper that exist in the game Company of Heroes 2.


You seem to want to confuse this thread. I advise you to read again what I wrote.
15 Feb 2022, 16:27 PM
#10
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1183

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Feb 2022, 15:41 PMRiley


You seem to want to confuse this thread. I advise you to read again what I wrote.


Ok I will gladly get serious with you. Pioneers, as a unit, is a pretty useless one. It's not squishy, and if you don't upgrade with Flamer it's combat useless.

Its only upsides are in support roles: laying mines, barbed wire and seeing further than purely combat units in order to assist with target marking. That's a good thing, and it ties perfectly to pioneers design philosophy.

I think it needs no change whatsoever. Those kind of topics are really cringe imho, since you are literally picking and examining mechanisms that have been in place for almost a decade.
15 Feb 2022, 17:17 PM
#11
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 211

Im kinda confused. Is a faction with such an overpowered starting unit not supposed to be very good? Cause slightly below 50% winrate in 1vs1 since september is kinda low for this balance mess.

Its probably a visual bug. In reality Ost has almost 80% winrate cause Pios have map hack. We live with this broken unit since launch and nothing has been done. Thank you balance team. Im glad riley brought this up.

The 52% winrate with USF is a visual bug too btw. Rifleman trash. Pls buff. Thank you.
15 Feb 2022, 17:18 PM
#12
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1183

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Feb 2022, 17:17 PMGeblobt
Im kinda confused. Is a faction with such an overpowered starting unit not supposed to be very good? Cause slightly below 50% winrate in 1vs1 since september is kinda low for this balance mess.

Its probably a visual bug. In reality Ost has almost 80% winrate cause Pios have map hack. We live with this broken unit since launch and nothing has been done. Thank you balance team. Im glad riley brought this up.

The 52% winrate with USF is a visual bug too btw. Rifleman trash. Pls buff. Thank you.


OP's brain in a nutshell thank you very much for the graphical represantion.
15 Feb 2022, 17:22 PM
#13
avatar of Riley

Posts: 268



Ok I will gladly get serious with you. Pioneers, as a unit, is a pretty useless one. It's not squishy, and if you don't upgrade with Flamer it's combat useless.

Its only upsides are in support roles: laying mines, barbed wire and seeing further than purely combat units in order to assist with target marking. That's a good thing, and it ties perfectly to pioneers design philosophy.

I think it needs no change whatsoever. Those kind of topics are really cringe imho, since you are literally picking and examining mechanisms that have been in place for almost a decade.


Well, i see you have a wild fear that broken things in your favorite faction will be fixed. The arguments are absolutely trash. There is no reason why the pioneers with the mp40 have such high sight range, unless the are helping the MG42 shoot out of the fog of war in the first minute of the game.. Things have been around for 10 years and they've been fixed, so that's fine.

Any engineers have the same philosophy, laying mines, barbed wire but. But osther pios also have jager sight bonus.

Nothing will happen, don't worry. Let's just shift the sight range 42 to 1 vet.
15 Feb 2022, 17:25 PM
#14
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1183

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Feb 2022, 17:22 PMRiley


Well, i see you have a wild fear that broken things in your favorite faction will be fixed. The arguments are absolutely trash. There is no reason why the pioneers with the mp40 have such high sight range, unless the are helping the MG42 shoot out of the fog of war in the first minute of the game.. Things have been around for 10 years and they've been fixed, so that's fine.

Any engineers have the same philosophy, laying mines, barbed wire but. But osther pios also have jager sight bonus.

Nothing will happen, don't worry. Let's just shift the sight range 42 to 1 vet.


Let's first address the 5000lb elephant in the room. I am not an axis fanboy. I play all factions except UKF.

Secondly, COH2 has way bigger balance problems than the sight vision of a 210mp unit.
15 Feb 2022, 17:44 PM
#15
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13267 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Feb 2022, 17:22 PMRiley


Well, i see you have a wild fear that broken things in your favorite faction will be fixed. The arguments are absolutely trash. There is no reason why the pioneers with the mp40 have such high sight range, unless the are helping the MG42 shoot out of the fog of war in the first minute of the game.. Things have been around for 10 years and they've been fixed, so that's fine.
....


"Pioneers
Our aim is to encourage positional play and combined arms, which the Wehrmacht faction tends to reply on more than any other faction. With an increase in sight (albeit still lower than pathfinders) we are allowing Pioneers to help spot for their HMGs and other support teams.
Sight increased from 35 to 42"

It is by design.

Actually Relic was going to give the extra sight to grenadiers and proposed pioneers instead...
15 Feb 2022, 17:55 PM
#16
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 217

Pio's having 42 view is a great tool for OST, use it alot.

But could this decision to make pio's with 42 range be the way it is since OST is the only faction that does not have mainline INF. in the starting/main building?
And also that unless you are going for some early-game doctrine, OST is severely lacking pushing power in the first few minutes?

15 Feb 2022, 18:08 PM
#17
avatar of Riley

Posts: 268

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Feb 2022, 17:44 PMVipper


"Pioneers
Our aim is to encourage positional play and combined arms, which the Wehrmacht faction tends to reply on more than any other faction. With an increase in sight (albeit still lower than pathfinders) we are allowing Pioneers to help spot for their HMGs and other support teams.
Sight increased from 35 to 42"

It is by design.

Actually Relic was going to give the extra sight to grenadiers and proposed pioneers instead...


So no one says to remove this. Just shift it to vet 1. Pioneers will still have this bonus. There's no reason to have it so early to shoot out of the fog of war with the mg42 in the first contact.

This is a broken thing. And this needs to be fixed.
15 Feb 2022, 18:33 PM
#18
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13267 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Feb 2022, 18:08 PMRiley


So no one says to remove this. Just shift it to vet 1. Pioneers will still have this bonus. There's no reason to have it so early to shoot out of the fog of war with the mg42 in the first contact.

This is a broken thing. And this needs to be fixed.

I have simply provided you with reason for the extra sight as explained by Relic

As for your suggestion try getting Pioneer to vet 1 and see what happens.

Why are not suggesting to be move grenadier vet 1 similar to infatry sections instead...
15 Feb 2022, 19:08 PM
#19
15 Feb 2022, 20:36 PM
#20
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1759 | Subs: 2

Just for clarity...

The pio design is two fold:
* Realism
* Asymmetrical balance

In WW2, Axis was very strong at the start of the war. Thus Sturms, Kubels, snipers, and pio sighted MGs.

In order for all factions to play differently, pios need vision to support the MG42. They give sight so it can be setup aggressively. Since they have good close range DPS they can then protect the MG when it gets flanked.

Soviets were late to the war and should be strong later in the game. Therefore as an EFA they do not need vision for maxims.

The constant "balancing" breaks the original ideas behind each faction. Which is what people complain about.

People complain about OP units until they get nerfed. Then other people complain about each faction playing the same.



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