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Why is the Maxim so bad?

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13 Feb 2022, 12:24 PM
#21
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 503 | Subs: 1

I'm sure its been explained somewhere before but I would like to know why the justification for Maxim being bad.

Same cost as MG42 but requires a tech building.

I am primary a team games player and I understand the balancing for Maxim is made around 1v1s. Am I correct in thinking that conscripts trading/value wise in 1v1s, the Maxim had to be toned down for it to be 'balanced'? If this is the case, unforunately conscripts are bad in team games which makes both Maxim and Cons being equally as bad in team games. A faction that has been ruined by the latest patches.

In team games, OST easy access to T1 Maxim, while Soviets have to build a T1 building for Maxim makes it so bad. Going Maxim first means you will always lose to MG42 first from Ost because they will have resource advantage and time advantage (because you teched to get Maxim). Not including that both have the same cost while Maxim has a smaller arc and can't suppress in one burst like the MG42 can. One is clearly better than the other and I don't see how the supporting units make up for this loss in power.

I know we're not getting any more patches but I feel like balance team really dropped the ball on this one. Soviets have really bad early game compared to OST and OKW. I remember Maxim costing 240mp before and having a faster setup time instead of what we have now.



That's literally 1 unit being subpar out of a roster of 90+% viable units though. Unfortunately there's no way for any competitive game to cater to different skill brackets AND game modes with different player counts. As it stands Soviets are the best faction in 1v1, but they're bad in 4v4. Cons are the best mainline when it comes to high-level play, but worst when it comes to lower skill brackets. The only solution is compromise.

Regarding the maxim, Dshka doctrines would not be appealing if maxim didn't suck. And Soviets would be too strong if they had a viable 6-man, merge-able hmg that wasn't CP2 and doctrinal.

Mostly the hmg formation changes reduced key weaknesses of mg34 and mg42, which were squad clumping and gunner death loop. But they kept their former suppression stats, so they're both really good right now.
13 Feb 2022, 14:05 PM
#22
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1051

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Feb 2022, 13:37 PMKatukov


axis mains on their way to intentionally charge into the maxim arc of fire so it doesn't get rightfully buffed:


you got me
13 Feb 2022, 14:42 PM
#23
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 594

The Maxim is the tool the Soviets have on locking down a sector and/or using as a force multiplier.

If you suck at using it, it's not the tool's fault.


Locking down a sector? Hell no. If the enemy has half a brain they can easily flank it with its shitty cone of fire and suppression. The only time it can do this job is when you've got warning of enemies coming in so you can pop Sustained Fire before they get into range.

Force multiplier? Yeah sure. It can also duel MG42s which I always thought was pretty cool.
13 Feb 2022, 19:08 PM
#24
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Feb 2022, 13:41 PMVipper

Here is a random video with a 6(?) maxim build, you are welcomed to try a 6 mg42 build see how it goes for you and come back with results.

Why would you ever need 6 mg42s? 2 is almost always enough. Can easily ask the opposite question, go back to the old maxim days and try building just 2 maxims

They should've kept the old price when they nerfed it. The nerfs were more than enough to kill the spam, the setup time nerf especially

At this point who cares, but in the next game MG performance needs to be more consistent across factions
13 Feb 2022, 20:02 PM
#25
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1


Why would you ever need 6 mg42s? 2 is almost always enough. Can easily ask the opposite question, go back to the old maxim days and try building just 2 maxims

They should've kept the old price when they nerfed it. The nerfs were more than enough to kill the spam, the setup time nerf especially

At this point who cares, but in the next game MG performance needs to be more consistent across factions

I was simply responding to a claim that MG-42 can be spammed in similar way that the maxim used to be spammed which is false. Nothing more nothing less.
(the usual rant that the allies always get the sort end of the stick. )

Maxim spam has ended and it is a good thing, end of story.
13 Feb 2022, 21:09 PM
#26
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 702 | Subs: 1

maxim spam being a thing three million years ago -> "um, sweaty, the maxim should be the worst MG in the game because UHHHH it was not trash in 2012 once!"



if conscripts went in battle without 2 of their 6 rifles, vipper would come and say "actually, conscripts used to have 7 fully armed men, its good that they are bad now!!"
14 Feb 2022, 05:47 AM
#27
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Feb 2022, 20:02 PMVipper

(the usual rant that the allies always get the sort end of the stick. )

Both sides do this, if you think it's a one-sided thing that says a lot more about you than anything else
14 Feb 2022, 09:12 AM
#28
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1


Both sides do this, if you think it's a one-sided thing that says a lot more about you than anything else

1) Nice to see that you agree that the specific claim was a rant

2) No I do not think it is a "one-side thing"

3) The fact that you are mote interested in posting about me than the maxim "says a lot more about you than anything else"

4) I do not really like and I am not interested where this is going so I would rather go back on topic which is the maxim

To respond to OP the maxim might be inferior to MG-42 (and that is by design) but it is simply not that bad and it see plenty of action.

If the maxim was brought to MG-42 level soviet would rolfstomp OKW and if the MG-42 was brought to maxim level USF would rolfstomp Ostheer.
14 Feb 2022, 13:09 PM
#29
avatar of Grim

Posts: 1043

The Maxim is the tool the Soviets have on locking down a sector and/or using as a force multiplier.

If you suck at using it, it's not the tool's fault.


Locking down a sector? XD

The thing can't even pin an enemy squad before they decap and cap a point you hold lol.

That's before we consider the simple act of walking through/skirting its arc to throw a grenade/RG

I generally find that if someone goes T2 as soviets in team games they struggle to carry their weight.
14 Feb 2022, 13:39 PM
#30
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1051

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2022, 13:09 PMGrim


Locking down a sector? XD

The thing can't even pin an enemy squad before they decap and cap a point you hold lol.

That's before we consider the simple act of walking through/skirting its arc to throw a grenade/RG

I generally find that if someone goes T2 as soviets in team games they struggle to carry their weight.


That's absolutely untrue. The Maxim used to be so OP that it could end games before 6min mark and now it's in its "normal" place. Comparing it to the Maschinengewehr-42 is straight up retarded since the two vanilla factions have completely different scopes and tools to do so. And if we attempt to start this discussion we would end up again arguing about how asymmetrical both factions are, the fact that OST has 4 men squads while SOV can have 7 men cons, OST has ATG that only shoots vehicles whilst SOV has Zis etc.

That's the tool SOV have. Like it, not like it, it does not matter. It will never be a MG42 vol. II so let's just stop with this.
14 Feb 2022, 14:21 PM
#31
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2022, 09:12 AMVipper

1) Nice to see that you agree that the specific claim was a rant

That's not what I said, you haven't changed a bit

I even agreed with their point about maxim cost. That's all they asked for, they didn't say to bring back maxim spam... All they asked for was to keep the price at 240 when they did the other nerfs

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2022, 09:12 AMVipper

2) No I do not think it is a "one-side thing"

"Nice to see you agree....":rolleyes:

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2022, 09:12 AMVipper

3) The fact that you are mote interested in posting about me than the maxim "says a lot more about you than anything else"

I literally just posted about the maxim. Then you decided to bring up "usual allied rants", dont see how that's on-topic

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2022, 09:12 AMVipper

To respond to OP the maxim might be inferior to MG-42 (and that is by design) but it is simply not that bad and it see plenty of action.

If the maxim was brought to MG-42 level soviet would rolfstomp OKW and if the MG-42 was brought to maxim level USF would rolfstomp Ostheer.

OP didn't say to buff it to mg42 levels and the person you responded to said this:
jump backJump back to quoted post12 Feb 2022, 13:36 PMKatukov

give it a price reduction to 240 manpower and that is enough
14 Feb 2022, 14:31 PM
#32
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 702 | Subs: 1



That's absolutely untrue. The Maxim used to be so OP that it could end games before 6min mark and now it's in its "normal" place. Comparing it to the Maschinengewehr-42 is straight up retarded since the two vanilla factions have completely different scopes and tools to do so. And if we attempt to start this discussion we would end up again arguing about how asymmetrical both factions are, the fact that OST has 4 men squads while SOV can have 7 men cons, OST has ATG that only shoots vehicles whilst SOV has Zis etc.

That's the tool SOV have. Like it, not like it, it does not matter. It will never be a MG42 vol. II so let's just stop with this.



-"maxim was op" isn't an argument, currently its trash, every single machine gun in the game outdoes it, and it costs the same as those. You can also steal other MGs, making the maxim obsolete, while a lot of okw and wehrmacht players never even pick up fallen Maxim guns, those that do make their defenses considerably weaker because the maxim's lower arc of fire

-you can use the mg-42 in the exact same fashion as the maxim (an """offensive""" MG, made up term by vipper), and you will enjoy considerably more success than if you used a maxim. Asymmetrical faction design does not mean that this unit should play out exactly like an mg-34/42 and only be inferior stat wise.

-the maxim has six men squads, but so do all other stolen machine guns. However, six men squad does not increase it's survivability. The maxim fights against grenadiers with long range, anti-static rifle grenades, or panzergrenadiers who have extremely lethal bundle grenades, even volksgrenadiers can walk up and throw their incendiary grenade, which will force the maxim to relocate or retreat. The maxim is more effective in buildings, but then it's 6 men squad advantage is completely nullified here.

-the pak-40 has no anti-infantry barrage, but it has better penetration, better reload, and a stun shot that will stop vehicles in their tracks. conscripts at six men would be rather lackluster infantry that had bad scaling later on in the game, which is why they added 7-men cons upgrade




asymmetrical design is not an argument that you can use, seeing as then the maxim should have increased agility so it can react better to compensate the lack of firing arc, or be used in offensive operations. You clearly don't use the maxim, is it fine because volks can flame nade it easier than other MGs?

nobody wants the maxim to be overpowered, most don't even know when it was overpowered, it simply is NOT a machine gun that you would pay 260 for, or even 20 manpower to reinforce it. a price tag of 240 suits it better, that is the best balance idea, seeing as even the slightest combat buffs would make people like you and vipper go insane
14 Feb 2022, 14:36 PM
#33
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1


That's not what I said, you haven't changed a bit

Pls skip personal comments.


I even agreed with their point about maxim cost. That's all they asked for, they didn't say to bring back maxim spam... All they asked for was to keep the price at 240 when they did the other nerfs

Now lets try this once more.
katokov's claim is that MG-42 is being spammed the same say way maxim was spammed in 2013-2014.
Do you agree with that claim or not?
If you agree pls provide replays of suceful +5 HMG-42 games.
If you do not then pls move on because you agree with me that claim is false.





"Nice to see you agree....":rolleyes:


I literally just posted about the maxim. Then you decided to bring up "usual allied rants", dont see how that's on-topic


OP didn't say to buff it to mg42 levels and the person you responded to said this:

I did not claim that any one suggested that is should be buffed to MG-42 I simply explained the issues if that happened.

Now pls quite the "you/he said" games cause I am not really interested.
14 Feb 2022, 14:39 PM
#34
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2022, 14:31 PMKatukov

-"maxim was op" isn't an argument, currently its trash,...

Maxim is simply not trash.

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2022, 14:31 PMKatukov

... (an """offensive""" MG, made up term by vipper),..

Again this is false, I have not made up this term nor do I even use it.

PLS stop this.

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2022, 14:31 PMKatukov


that is the best balance idea, seeing as even the slightest combat buffs would make people like you and vipper go insane

PLS stop with personal comments and stop projecting your flaws on others. According to what you have said you are the one playing allies exclusively (possibly mainly Soviets) I play all faction including Soviets and I do use maxims.
14 Feb 2022, 14:52 PM
#35
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2022, 14:36 PMVipper

Pls skip personal comments.

Then don't intentionally twist my words

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2022, 14:36 PMVipper

Now lets try this once more.
katokov's claim is that MG-42 is being spammed the same say way maxim was spammed in 2013-2014.
Do you agree with that claim or not?
If you agree pls provide replays of suceful +5 HMG-42 games.
If you do not then pls move on because you agree with me that claim is false.

He literally said building 2-3 mg42s, not 5. So this entire lecture you're giving comes down to his choice of the word "spam"

You could just respond to his suggestion about the price, instead of lecturing people about how the game was several years ago
14 Feb 2022, 15:06 PM
#36
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1


Then don't intentionally twist my words


He literally said building 2-3 mg42s, not 5. So this entire lecture you're giving comes down to his choice of the word "spam"

You could just respond to his suggestion about the price, instead of lecturing people about how the game was several years ago

Do you agree with me that MG-42 can can not be spammed the same way as maxim was being spammed in 2013-2014 yes or no?
14 Feb 2022, 15:13 PM
#37
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2022, 15:06 PMVipper

Do you agree with me that MG-42 can can not be spammed the same way as maxim was being spammed in 2013-2014 yes or no?

I already addressed this in my first post in this thread....

Do you think the maxim is currently worth 260mp yes or no? Much more relevant question than asking about how the game was 8 years ago
14 Feb 2022, 15:49 PM
#39
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2022, 15:39 PMVipper

And the answer was a yes or no?

Neither. You don't NEED to build 5 of them. The old maxim needed to be spammed or it wasn't effective. That's never been true for the mg42

I made that very clear in the post

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2022, 15:39 PMVipper

I have no intention of debating any other issues with you unless you provide a straight answer so we can close the original issue, then we can move on.

(edited)

You mean until I give the answer you want. I gave a very clear answer already

Now how about you try talking about the current game, instead of the game from 8 years ago
14 Feb 2022, 16:12 PM
#40
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1051

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2022, 14:31 PMKatukov



-"maxim was op" isn't an argument, currently its trash, every single machine gun in the game outdoes it, and it costs the same as those. You can also steal other MGs, making the maxim obsolete, while a lot of okw and wehrmacht players never even pick up fallen Maxim guns, those that do make their defenses considerably weaker because the maxim's lower arc of fire

-you can use the mg-42 in the exact same fashion as the maxim (an """offensive""" MG, made up term by vipper), and you will enjoy considerably more success than if you used a maxim. Asymmetrical faction design does not mean that this unit should play out exactly like an mg-34/42 and only be inferior stat wise.

-the maxim has six men squads, but so do all other stolen machine guns. However, six men squad does not increase it's survivability. The maxim fights against grenadiers with long range, anti-static rifle grenades, or panzergrenadiers who have extremely lethal bundle grenades, even volksgrenadiers can walk up and throw their incendiary grenade, which will force the maxim to relocate or retreat. The maxim is more effective in buildings, but then it's 6 men squad advantage is completely nullified here.

-the pak-40 has no anti-infantry barrage, but it has better penetration, better reload, and a stun shot that will stop vehicles in their tracks. conscripts at six men would be rather lackluster infantry that had bad scaling later on in the game, which is why they added 7-men cons upgrade




asymmetrical design is not an argument that you can use, seeing as then the maxim should have increased agility so it can react better to compensate the lack of firing arc, or be used in offensive operations. You clearly don't use the maxim, is it fine because volks can flame nade it easier than other MGs?

nobody wants the maxim to be overpowered, most don't even know when it was overpowered, it simply is NOT a machine gun that you would pay 260 for, or even 20 manpower to reinforce it. a price tag of 240 suits it better, that is the best balance idea, seeing as even the slightest combat buffs would make people like you and vipper go insane


  • Maxim is not "trash" unless you think that "not being instapin MG42" is a trashy quality. Then you would be a simpleton.
  • I don't really think so. MG42 is definitely not an "offensive" MG. It has a huge arc of fire, because it must be able to defensively close down an area. It has huge setup time, so no point in moving it.
  • That's a huge huge huge strawman. If a grenadier walks up in front of the Maxim he may not get instapinned like MG42 but will certainly be suppressed, meaning they cannot fire the rifle gren from the distance they would have. Same goes for PzGrens. Sure they have an amazing grenade, but that is for killing it from the rear or very front of a machine gun. The scenario you have in your mind "walk in front of a Maxim with PzGrens and they will instantly wipe it" is a pipedream for axis players.
  • What you say is true stats wise but you are simply reaffirming what I said earlier. No point in fighting over what faction "has better stats" simply because we are comparing apples to SKANIA trucks. Just not the same. Don't point out ridiculous sub-arguments in order to move away from the original discussion. I called it first by saying: stay on the topic of Maxim, do not talk about faction design imbalances/asymmetries. Also, if you unironically think that Cons are """non-scalable, hence 7men upgrade""" excuse me but your issues are simply L2P ones. Cons are amazing cannon fodder that can man everything, snare everything, reinforce everything. Again, this is what you get wrong about the game design. Not every unit you have is meant to just straight up kill, and not every faction has got to have the same objectives as the other. Broaden your vision of the game plz.

    3 Cons plus 2 Guards for example is an amazing AI squad and utilizing the Merge ability becomes dirt cheap to reinforce. Do you think we should make another thread on why "Merge" is an OP ability and should be given to all factions?

  • Ok let's make Maxim 240mp, I personally could not care less.

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