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High level Knowledge on Balance - tournament

19 Jan 2022, 05:37 AM
#21
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 962 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Jan 2022, 19:09 PMEsxile


No faction is stronger by default. If we went from the reverse situation then it means there is a point in-between where better balance lies.


Its not the strength of the faction, its the adaptability of the factions. 3 factions are forced to spam mainline, they are predictable, they are redable and most importanly they dont have answers to many of EFA oppenings\mid game units.

Hell, say you have a chose alright. You have USF and you have Sov.

As USF you know, that you have to controll your rifles perfectly, you know that on paper you are stronger but in reality its not always possible to get in close\mid range fights, you know that your success depends on either you being a better player or your oppenent screwing up.

As soviets, even if you went with the wrong strat, you always can do a flip and get something which will help, if not win, but at least make enemy snowballing much slower. Same with Ost. And the most importand as ost\soviets you can also win by being a weaker player, simply because you managed to outsmart your opponent by bringing something he dont have answer to, unlike WFA factions.

To put it much simply, WFA factions just requare perfect play most of the time to get the most of them. And considering really small amount of variety and the fact that their mainlines are usually overburned with tasks in early\mid game, they are being pushied for a mistakes much more.

As DevM said about OKW vs USF match up. On paper USF should be stronger then OKW in early game, but in practice you just cant get into situations when USF gimmics will kick in, thats the problem.

This is territory close to "faction revamps", which is pointless at this point. Balance team cant buff OKW\USF\UKF in this situation. Because it would either be such a small changes no-one but top players will even recognize or they could buff them overall but we will retern to pre-nerf WFA armies.

Top players play with ost\sov. Automatch is unbalanced crap opponents wise and stats wise. So why even bother at this point? At least outside the tournaments all 5 factions are somewhat playable, good page to end CoH2 history on.
19 Jan 2022, 13:42 PM
#22
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3465 | Subs: 1



Its not the strength of the faction, its the adaptability of the factions. 3 factions are forced to spam mainline, they are predictable, they are redable and most importanly they dont have answers to many of EFA oppenings\mid game units.



Not really or 3 rifles, 3 volks are spam to you. Actually the 2 factions that have easy early spam are Ostheer and Cons with their fast 4x mainlines infantry every game outclassing other factions. And that's not a question of faction design but how the balance swifted to this state over the patches.

19 Jan 2022, 13:51 PM
#23
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 753

Guys, every faction "spams" infantry. Only OST can have less of it, because of efficiency of 2x HMG42 build. I think the problem is that both cons and Grens scale better/efficiently then volks and rifles. Volks being mediocre once their power spike wears off and rifles being very expensive to scale and maintain.
20 Jan 2022, 12:41 PM
#24
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 471

Game Meta wise:
We are living in a world of 4inf + (mg) + 2at + 1 armed vehicle -> Tank era.
Sov & WM's tier are very suitable for the meta, while others are not.
OKW: AA half is very tricky & risky to play.
USF: Needs to back tech for AT
UKF: AEC's anti-inf sucks + no snare for mainline inf.

Why pick WM over OKW:
1. Main reason: OKW is next to weakest(OBVIOUSLY UKF) faction in 1v1 ATM.
2. WM's weakest time is right before they get all the tools(mg+222+pak). But most top players can pass that time w/o significant lose. After that, they are very tough faction with all the proper tool to counter enemy with proper skill(which all of the players from the Tourney have)

Why OKW is weak?
1. Rak nerf played important role. But I won't say we need to get back to invisible rak. It's toooooo OP.
2. volks aren't that strong against almost all. It just does it's role. But not a game-changer. That's why people go for Obser or pf for these days.
3. Since 2tier isn't major anymore; AA half is good but very tricky + risky unit to play with. Same goes for AA half from USF.
4. P4J can't dominate over t34-85. And 7cons are more mp efficiency than volks --> Very weak vs. Soviet.

Why pick Sov over USF:
1. Soviet is the strongest(IMHO) faction ATM with man power efficiency of 7-man-conscript.
2. They along with WM has all the right tool with them. Especially because 1tier is not the major tactic for now. And 120 & t34-85 is very viable unit.
3. When it gets to the late game, they both have rocket arti as a stock unit. So player can use it to wipe squad or destory at/mg.

I won't say USF is weak at the moment. But the faction does require a lot of skillful play to gain best of it. Such as controling 2+ armed vehicle... etc. And if they don't get advantage at early-mid game, it gets really tough for the faction to comeback. Need backtech for AT; sherman won't help that much when you are loosing etc. So... Overall, Soviet is more safer option to pick.
No rocket arti w/o commander.

UKF:
meme faction.
At least give snare to Tommies.
20 Jan 2022, 14:31 PM
#25
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 962 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jan 2022, 13:42 PMEsxile


Not really or 3 rifles, 3 volks are spam to you. Actually the 2 factions that have easy early spam are Ostheer and Cons with their fast 4x mainlines infantry every game outclassing other factions. And that's not a question of faction design but how the balance swifted to this state over the patches.



No offense but you are tunel visioning it a bit. Yes, Ost and Sov also do start with 3 to 4 mainlines oppenings but there is a difference. Firstly, unlike OKW\USF\UKF soviet\ost arent forced into this standart build, but even then they do their tech allowing them to roll out support units much earlier, in case they suddenly in need of them, for Ost its the fact that T0\T1 contains support units, for soviets its either flexable teching and commanders call-ins.

Secondly, both ost and soviets arent locked behind any significant side grades. Ost dont have any, because its tech costs already balanced by timing, soviets have moly\nades but price is very low in comparison aswell as, depending on your play, you can skip it. All 3 WFA factions on the other hand have some sort of a gimmic behind their tech, resulting in a plentora of "side grades" which are in fact just a way to delay teching, since without essentual tools being locked behind side grades WFA factions are the fastest to get late game units. This is not only very inconvenient but it also might really backfire, because not only you can make a wrong chose by chosing wrong side grade, but also if enemy is snowballing already they will just put you even more behind.

Thirdly while Grens\Cons arent as good, as say volks\rifles\tommy stat vise and on paper should lose, in practice its not the case. And here comes the balance dilemma. Should grens\cons lose almost in every single scenario to WFA mainlines, no matter what, in order to balance the cost difference and the fact that WFA pretty much dont have any proper support tools early or they shoudnt. And if they should, how then you going to adress the fact that, the second ost\sov mainline wont be sophisticated, players will just use support units awaible from the get go, which WFA armies cant even hard counter early to begin with.

As an example you can look at Ost vs UKF match up, where IS are stronger then grens at long range and Ost is just bullying UKF with sniper.

And lastly you shoudnt forgert that Ost\Sov have all the tools in their army. Starting from the fact that only they have stock flamethrowers, ending up with the fact that only they have proper stock rocket arty (I wont consider zu fuss a proper rocket arty, sorry).
20 Jan 2022, 15:44 PM
#26
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 503 | Subs: 1

Map pool matters a lot too. Playing "weird" maps like Kholodny Ferma, USF and OKW have no trouble competing.

On very "standard" maps like Amilly Fields and especially Crossroads, defensive, slow-and-steady style play into a late-game grind-it-out victory is the norm, and naturally the EFA do this so well with their "incrementally add on every tool to complete your late-game composition" style of play. USF especially is the worst at trading slowly over the long-game and it genuinely feels like I don't have enough vetoes as USF, a problem I don't have with the other 3 factions.

Also sucks that Vilshanka needs to be auto-vetoed because of the bug.
20 Jan 2022, 15:49 PM
#27
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 702 | Subs: 1


(I wont consider zu fuss a proper rocket arty, sorry).


tldr wrong
Pip
20 Jan 2022, 16:03 PM
#28
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jan 2022, 15:49 PMKatukov


tldr wrong


It really isnt the same as the Katy or Werfer (Or Calliope). The stuka is fantastic for displacing/destroying team weapons, and punishing extremely static play, but against blobs it is nowhere near as reliable as the Werfer or Katy.
20 Jan 2022, 16:07 PM
#29
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 471

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jan 2022, 16:03 PMPip

The stuka is fantastic for displacing/destroying team weapons, and punishing extremely static play


That's whole point of the rocket arty (If "zu fuss" means walking stuka), the problem with walking stuka in 1v1 is that it requires back-tech. Which is very painful with limited m.p. in mid-late game.

We used to see around 1 walking stuka even in 1v1 when 2tier was dominant.
20 Jan 2022, 16:43 PM
#30
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3465 | Subs: 1



No offense but you are tunel visioning it a bit.


What side upgrade has OKW that cost so much? What unit is not in their stock roster?

You opened your first reply on this topic daring to call Ostheer OP but you're the one keeping describing them that way in every posts like its normal for balance sake.

Also it sounds like you are just implying that the only reason why Ostheer is picked - because its OP. Everything what made Ostheer stupidly OP in 1v1 was nerfed. Osttropens were nerfed, VSL was nerfed, Ass grens nerfed, Sniper nerfed (for every one, but still), tech skipping capacity nerfed.


(As side note you're confusing faction being OP with unit being OP, there are no evident correlation between them)

UKF\USF\OKW on the other hand fully rely on you just being better then your opponent or out-playing him in order to win

(Part of the definition of being OP, that you can't fight equally)

To put it much simply, WFA factions just requare perfect play most of the time to get the most of them. And considering really small amount of variety and the fact that their mainlines are usually overburned with tasks in early\mid game, they are being pushied for a mistakes much more.


(This is definitly something that CAN be change and that have been changed in the past, I don't recall if that was still Relic in command or MrSmith at that time but they acknowledged what we could define as the different APM required per faction to be optimum and actually changed it so we didn't had this huge gap between faction. And this is have been undone by the current modding team in the successive patches to the situation we're today.)

Yes, Ost and Sov also do start with 3 to 4 mainlines oppenings but there is a difference. Firstly, unlike OKW\USF\UKF soviet\ost arent forced into this standart build


False, show me a game from tournament where Top players actually didn't build 4 mainline infantry.
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxYUh3V_Pg0qXWqh_Zna3NLSEHqrfvyvg9

Thirdly while Grens\Cons arent as good, as say volks\rifles\tommy stat vise and on paper should lose, in practice its not the case. And here comes the balance dilemma...


(You're again stating that Ostheer and Soviet need to be OP with their mailine infantry punching way above their league for balance purposes. While, again, I don't see evident correlation between faction being OP and units being OP, you're just contradicting yourself with your previous statement that Ostheer has not anymore OP unit in their roster).
20 Jan 2022, 18:04 PM
#31
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 962 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jan 2022, 16:43 PMEsxile

What side upgrade has OKW that cost so much? What unit is not in their stock roster?

Not in the stock roster? Sure. Flames, cheap repair unit, proper AT gun, AT+AI LV or a super cheap one like 222, properly scaling mainline, permament healing without tech/back-tech requirements, good inderect unit with normal barrage, mobile reinforcement platform. Want me to mention what USF\UKF dont have?
And OKW (nor USF\UKF) has upgrades that cost "so much", its the fact that Ost\Sov dont have them, they arent starting handicapped.

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jan 2022, 16:43 PMEsxile

You opened your first reply on this topic daring to call Ostheer OP but you're the one keeping describing them that way in every posts like its normal for balance sake.

As I matter of fact I describe Sov\Ost the same way. You on the other hand, in your second or first reply, said that "Ostheer is OP". If you focusing on this subject, better to not disguise it and create appropriate topic. Also I never said its normal, I've said that it was inevitable, considering how WFA factions are made.

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jan 2022, 16:43 PMEsxile

(As side note you're confusing faction being OP with unit being OP, there are no evident correlation between them)
(Part of the definition of being OP, that you can't fight equally)

Or maybe its not the factions being OP, but rather other faction has not enouth available tools at the right time? Think about it.

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jan 2022, 16:43 PMEsxile

False, show me a game from tournament where Top players actually didn't build 4 mainline infantry.
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxYUh3V_Pg0qXWqh_Zna3NLSEHqrfvyvg9

In the same video maybe? But since, we are not understanding each others point, I'il try explaining it differently. Stop focusing on 4 mainlines, focus on what units sov\ost can get in early game before they get their 3d\4th mainline and compare them to what unit composition WFA factions can get, which would be just as usable and without requiring you to lock yourself into a commander early.

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jan 2022, 16:43 PMEsxile

(You're again stating that Ostheer and Soviet need to be OP with their mailine infantry punching way above their league for balance purposes. While, again, I don't see evident correlation between faction being OP and units being OP, you're just contradicting yourself with your previous statement that Ostheer has not anymore OP unit in their roster).


Re-read plz. I said that either WFA factions mainlines should litteraly mop the floor with cons\grens (litteraly WFA armies on relese) to compinsate the fact that they have more expensive inf\less options to play with or we will have situation like we have right now, that even with weaker inf sov\ost can trade with WFA armier or even if they cant, they will just bring support tools and still have an upper hand.
20 Jan 2022, 18:39 PM
#32
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3465 | Subs: 1


Not in the stock roster? Sure.


So in definitive because they're not like Ostheer or Soviet, cheap en extremely cost effective units. Imo nothing that can't be change with proper balance decisions.

Then you keep saying
Or maybe its not the factions being OP, but rather other faction has not enouth available tools at the right time? Think about it.

But what are those tools? Even if you deny it OKW has access to everything, USF not having stock access to Rocket Arty is a late game problem while at the moment the USF struggle vs Ostheer and OKW is an early game matter. Only UKF is probably entangled into more deeper problem but could probably be solve by looking at snipers behavior in the game.

Are you really interested into thinking of way to balance the game or are you just happy with the current situation. If this is the case, fine but stop posting the same we can't do anything shit over and over as if keeping repeating it would make it more true.
20 Jan 2022, 18:53 PM
#33
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 962 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jan 2022, 18:39 PMEsxile

So in definitive because they're not like Ostheer or Soviet, cheap en extremely cost effective units. Imo nothing that can't be change with proper balance decisions.

Pretty much. As many people were saying, CoH2 back in the day needed a proper benchmark faction which would be balanced out as perfectly as it could be, and then other factions should be balanced around this factions. Not like, Ost vs Sov, USF vs OKW, UKF vs CPU. With a bunch of handbandages holding it togeather, creating halfassed toxic gameplay.

Also cost of grens\cons handly really matters, again, even if you add like 10MP making them cost 250, they would still be better simply because they always can use support unit as a backup. No matter how much your volks\rifles\IS cost, when your only counter play options are either survive\push\out-flank.

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jan 2022, 18:39 PMEsxile

But what are those tools? Even if you deny it OKW has access to everything, USF not having stock access to Rocket Arty is a late game problem while at the moment the USF struggle vs Ostheer and OKW is an early game matter. Only UKF is probably entangled into more deeper problem but could probably be solve by looking at snipers behavior in the game.

Because early game matters the most, especially for snowballing faction like USF. And in early game you have rifles and rears face combined arms army. Even tha fact that OKW has kubel can really mess up the USF and we are speking about Ost with a whole bunch of combined arms options.

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jan 2022, 18:39 PMEsxile

Are you really interested into thinking of way to balance the game or are you just happy with the current situation. If this is the case, fine but stop posting the same we can't do anything shit over and over as if keeping repeating it would make it more true.

Honestly I dont give a shit about correct CoH2 balance and CoH2 balance in general and imo no-one should. Not because its unchangable, but because relic didnt alow to do all the nessesery changes to begin with and the fact that CoH3 is comming and CoH2 wont have any updates most likely.
We cant do anything about it, and you should face it. The best bet you can have, is to collect your thoughts and data about why such problem exist in CoH2 and create a topic providing feedback on CoH3 devforum and actually try to make next game not suck balls.
20 Jan 2022, 22:19 PM
#34
avatar of WhiteFlash
Senior Mapmaker Badge
Benefactor 119

Posts: 1278 | Subs: 1

Not for the first or last time ill say this again.

All of the faction talk in the game is important and relavent, but equally important is the enviornment in which they find themselves. This is almost never talked about (generally speaking) when people are talking about how factions play against each other.

<444>3 Cheers
21 Jan 2022, 07:06 AM
#35
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3465 | Subs: 1


Honestly I dont give a shit about correct CoH2 balance and CoH2 balance in general and imo no-one should.


Then why spending so much time responding? Why did you ever complain about balance here in this forum?

Not for the first or last time ill say this again.

All of the faction talk in the game is important and relavent, but equally important is the enviornment in which they find themselves. This is almost never talked about (generally speaking) when people are talking about how factions play against each other.

<444>3 Cheers


Map design tend to follow always the pattern, we can't change maps or maps designers vision as much as balance.
21 Jan 2022, 13:40 PM
#36
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 962 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jan 2022, 07:06 AMEsxile

Then why spending so much time responding? Why did you ever complain about balance here in this forum?

Reading past first sentence would be a usefull skill indeed. I've heard sometimes there are answers to your qustions in there :bananadance:
24 Jan 2022, 16:16 PM
#37
avatar of IntoTheRain

Posts: 179

In relation to the comments about the linear playstyles of the expansion factions, I've really come to think that the split tech setup is garbage.

Ostheer (and to a lesser extent Soviets) get everything as they tech, while USF/OKW are forced to make awkward choices that cut down on their actual roster size, which in turn leads to said linear playstyles.

By the time they have access to medium tanks, Ostheer and Soviets also have access to all the common tools used in 1v1, while USF and OKW are still playing with 1 arm tied behind their back. Hence the need for these factions to snowball.
24 Jan 2022, 16:55 PM
#38
avatar of Tom_BR

Posts: 70

In my humble opinion about USF in x1 mode. for me it's almost mandatory, before going to major, you get the captain and lieutenant build. If you don't hold your own against the P4's with 2 AT and their superiority in light vehicles and infantry early to mid-game, the endgame is unlikely to be turned in your favor with just a poor sherman or an unprotected M36. in fact, if the USF doesn't maintain pressure in the beginning for the midgame, it can settle because turning a USF game in the late game against a good axis player will be unlikely and it won't be worth the mental health that you will wear out with this colossal endeavor.
24 Jan 2022, 23:30 PM
#39
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1460

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jan 2022, 16:55 PMTom_BR
In my humble opinion about USF in x1 mode. for me it's almost mandatory, before going to major, you get the captain and lieutenant build. If you don't hold your own against the P4's with 2 AT and their superiority in light vehicles and infantry early to mid-game, the endgame is unlikely to be turned in your favor with just a poor sherman or an unprotected M36. in fact, if the USF doesn't maintain pressure in the beginning for the midgame, it can settle because turning a USF game in the late game against a good axis player will be unlikely and it won't be worth the mental health that you will wear out with this colossal endeavor.


Is it even possible to not go both lieutenant and captain in 1v1s?
I mean, you could have the AAHT as a suppression platform, but that is micro intensive and cannot be played aggressively (2 shot dead).
You need the captain for AT gun and you need the lieutenant for the MG, and since you need the MG "sooner" than you need an AT gun, going full tech for both is not all too wise... for what? Laughable pak howi and AAHT?

USF is the same in every mode, which makes it quite fun to play: Maintain aggression or fall to a steady push from axis.
25 Jan 2022, 00:31 AM
#40
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2773

COH2 balance being dead for years, Lelic being too busy for AOE4 and COH3.
Feels like 2012 the abandoned COH1 Faghounds that never would be fixed.
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