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russian armor

ISU-152 concrete piercing round

12 Dec 2021, 13:21 PM
#21
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 767

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2021, 12:56 PMKatukov


honestly the ability would be real useful if it insta kills the pak-43 through walls, as the only place its being made on is behind buildings anyway

I actually have no issue with the change. ISU was a toxic unit that forced Axis to pick heavy TDs more often in 2v2 resulting in much less fun gamemode overall.

My point was not that the ability was unjustifiably nerfed, but that calling that a buff was a humongous stretch. You still can wipe a relatively damaged and clumped squad, but that's about it.

Also back in the days ISU commanders had an IL2 bomb strike, that is a direct counter to static heavy weaponry pieces.
12 Dec 2021, 13:27 PM
#22
avatar of Hannibal
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2021, 13:18 PMVipper
The ability now 1.000 penetration which higher than 300... :facepalm:

He is completely right on this point, no need to facepalm. More than 300 pen helps basically only against the KT, JT and Ele. Out of those three, the KT is probably the only unit you want to use it against because otherwise you'll get a heavy return shot.

The pen buff is overall negligible.
12 Dec 2021, 13:40 PM
#23
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13374 | Subs: 1


I actually have no issue with the change. ISU was a toxic unit that forced Axis to pick heavy TDs more often in 2v2 resulting in much less fun gamemode overall.

My point was not that the ability was unjustifiably nerfed, but that calling that a buff was a humongous stretch. You still can wipe a relatively damaged and clumped squad, but that's about it.

Also back in the days ISU commanders had an IL2 bomb strike, that is a direct counter to static heavy weaponry pieces.

And there is context, I was replaying to a claim that the ability "practically useless" which you agree it is not.

So in sort you confirm that you posted just to disagree with me.


He is completely right on this point, no need to facepalm.

I simply returned a facepalm because if one reads this without knowing anything else:

...
Also the ability used to have 300 far pen... but I guess having an ability to wipe squads and team weapons is less important then having more chance to deal 240 damage to KT, Ele and JT :facepalm:

one would think the ability can no longer wipe squad and team weapon and can only be used vs Super heavy vehicles which is simply false.


More than 300 pen helps basically only against the KT, JT and Ele. Out of those three, the KT is probably the only unit you want to use it against because otherwise you'll get a heavy return shot.

The pen buff is overall negligible.

The ability is very difficult to hit medium speed moving target unless they are driving directly into the barrel of the gun.
In AT role it is designed to be used vs those slow big heavily armored targets like KT/JT/Ele.

In addition since the ability can fired and score hits in the FOW and even behind certain shot blockers can, at least in some cases,be used with impunity.

JT/Ele firing back is not even guaranteed unless their gun is facing in the right direction

One can even combine it with mark target for extra damage.

So no I would not say that the penetration buff negligible
nor
that ability is useless.

12 Dec 2021, 13:50 PM
#24
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 767

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2021, 13:40 PMVipper

And there is context, I was replaying to a claim that the ability "practically useless" which you agree it is not.

So in sort you confirm that you posted just to disagree with me.

that's not what you've said tho

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Dec 2021, 17:03 PMVipper
Actually the changes where not a nerf but a buff...

Main thing reduce was kill radius (2x reduce btw)

It can now be used vs both hard and soft targets.

As AT it is meant to be used vs JT/Ele



Also the ability used to have 300 far pen... but I guess having an ability to wipe squads and team weapons is less important then having more chance to deal 240 damage to KT, Ele and JT :facepalm:



My point was not that the ability was unjustifiably nerfed, but that calling that a buff was a humongous stretch. You still can wipe a relatively damaged and clumped squad, but that's about it.


Again, my issue with the stupid statement not with the balance change, which I made clear in my previous comment. Also I never said it is useless now smh
12 Dec 2021, 13:58 PM
#25
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13374 | Subs: 1


that's not what you've said tho

Again, my issue with the stupid statement not with the balance change, which I made clear in my previous comment. Also I never said it is useless now smh

And you reconfirm my point, that you like to disagree with me:

You did not disagree with OP's claim the ability become useless after the patch but was more than happy to call my point that it is not "completelypractically useless", a "stupid statement".

I have no interest in playing non constructive word games and I would rather post thing that are relevant to the topic, so I leave you on your own.

You might also want to avoid posting thing that are factually wrong like that is can no longer de-crew pak43s.

Thanks for providing the AOE profiles comparison.

(Edited since I miss quoted a word)
12 Dec 2021, 14:06 PM
#26
avatar of Hannibal
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2021, 13:40 PMVipper

And there is context, I was replaying to a claim that the ability "practically useless" which you agree it is not.

So in sort you confirm that you posted just to disagree with me.

Please don't make it a personal thing, it helps no one and nothing and just drifts the discussion off topic.

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2021, 13:40 PMVipper
I simply returned a facepalm because if one reads this without knowing anything else:

one would think the ability can no longer wipe squad and team weapon and can only be used vs Super heavy vehicles which is simply false.

His further context is 3 posts above the one you quoted. We're also still on page 1 and people are going to read OP's post. There is enough context.

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2021, 13:40 PMVipper
The ability is very difficult to hit medium speed moving target unless they are driving directly into the barrel of the gun.
In AT role it is designed to be used vs those slow big heavily armored targets like KT/JT/Ele.

In addition since the ability can fired and score hits in the FOW and even behind certain shot blocker one can use it with impunity. Retailed from JT/Ele is not even guaranteed unless their gun is facing in the right direction

One can even combine it with mark target for extra damage.

So no I would not say that the penetration buff negligible
nor
that ability is useless.

Mark target etc are not part of this. They're a different ability for which you pay extra and not available with all ISU commanders.

I agree that the ability is meant for slower units. As I said before the whole setup of this ability is VERY situational, especially since the ISU is quite immobile, so driving it behind shot blockers and then facing the actual target takes a while and requires a long setup.
The overall damage buff regarding the penetration is negligable. The ability has become slightly more reliable. In terms of DPS, not much though. Serealia says the deflection damage previously was ~80, normal damage is 240. We can debate how much sense "DPS" makes in single shot abilities, but e.g. against an Elefant your chance difference to deal those 160 damage between old and new ability is 25%, or 40 damage.
12 Dec 2021, 14:09 PM
#27
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 767

I've decided to edit graph a bit to better represent current AI performance of the Concrete Piercing shot. Keep in mind that that the regular shot has 60 max range vs 70 and concrete piercing round has no scatter.
12 Dec 2021, 14:11 PM
#28
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 2933 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2021, 13:58 PMVipper
You did not disagree with OP's claim the ability become useless after the patch but was more than happy to call my point that it is not "completely useless", a "stupid statement".

No one said anything like this, please stop to make up posts. This thread won't derail into an off topic discussion.
12 Dec 2021, 14:17 PM
#29
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13374 | Subs: 1


Please don't make it a personal thing, it helps no one and nothing and just drifts the discussion off topic.

His further context is 3 posts above the one you quoted. We're also still on page 1 and people are going to read OP's post. There is enough context.

I am making it a personally thing?
He just openly said in post #25 that he is only posted because of my "stupid statement" and not because of anything to do with patch change.

In addition as I have clearly post I nothing to debate with user unless is related to ability.


Mark target etc are not part of this. They're a different ability for which you pay extra and not available with all ISU commanders.

I agree that the ability is meant for slower units. As I said before the whole setup of this ability is VERY situational, especially since the ISU is quite immobile, so driving it behind shot blockers and then facing the actual target takes a while and requires a long setup.
The overall damage buff regarding the penetration is negligable. The ability has become slightly more reliable. In terms of DPS, not much though. Serealia says the deflection damage previously was ~80, normal damage is 240. We can debate how much sense "DPS" makes in single shot abilities, but e.g. against an Elefant your chance difference to deal those 160 damage between old and new ability is 25%, or 40 damage.

The ability went from:
75% change to penetrate an Elefant to 100%
80% change to penetrate a KT to 100%
67% change to penetrate a JT to 100%

Damage from 80 on deflection to 240 guaranteed

I guess it is you right to describe that as "negligible" and "slightly" as it my right to user other descriptions.
12 Dec 2021, 14:32 PM
#30
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17633 | Subs: 9

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2021, 14:17 PMVipper

The ability went from:
75% change to penetrate an Elefant to 100%
80% change to penetrate a KT to 100%
67% change to penetrate a JT to 100%

If you shoot it at ele, you get shot back for more damage, possibly 2 times.
If you shoot it at JT, you get shot back for more damage, possibly 2 times.

Which means the pen buff is useful exclusively against a single unit in the entire game.
Which makes the nerfs greatly outweight the significance of armor pen right there.

That is a fact, not an opinion.
12 Dec 2021, 14:36 PM
#31
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 2933 | Subs: 2

I've decided to edit graph a bit to better represent current AI performance of the Concrete Piercing shot. Keep in mind that that the regular shot has 60 max range vs 70 and concrete piercing round has no scatter.

That's also what I mean.

Against tanks, the ability is not really that helpful, because either there is no slow heavy on the field or you keep your ISU out of the way (JT/Ele). Situational at best, but the main use is probably infantry.

Against infantry, you pay 60 mun for 10 more range, no scatter and an okay buff to OHK compared to the normal shell. All this is okay, but is it really worth that much? The normal shell really isn't all that different.
A little bit less damage than the normal HE shell due to scatter, but against MGs, mortars and even PaKs, they perform similarly overall.

The ability isn't outright bad, it is just really mediocre and boring due to it using a very similar AoE profile compared to the normal shell. It is basically 60 mun for shooting an improved HE shell through a wall.
12 Dec 2021, 14:50 PM
#32
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 767

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2021, 14:17 PMVipper

The ability went from:
75% change to penetrate an Elefant to 100%
80% change to penetrate a KT to 100%
67% change to penetrate a JT to 100%

you are missing the fact that ability needs to land smack dab in the middle of the target to do the full 240 damage, since it is pure AOE damage compared to pen/accuracy rolls for AP round.

Edit: or land a collision hit. But still there is a probability for shot to land "under the target" and deal less then 240 damage.
12 Dec 2021, 15:01 PM
#33
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 767


That's also what I mean.

Against tanks, the ability is not really that helpful, because either there is no slow heavy on the field or you keep your ISU out of the way (JT/Ele). Situational at best, but the main use is probably infantry.

Against infantry, you pay 60 mun for 10 more range, no scatter and an okay buff to OHK compared to the normal shell. All this is okay, but is it really worth that much? The normal shell really isn't all that different.
A little bit less damage than the normal HE shell due to scatter, but against MGs, mortars and even PaKs, they perform similarly overall.

The ability isn't outright bad, it is just really mediocre and boring due to it using a very similar AoE profile compared to the normal shell. It is basically 60 mun for shooting an improved HE shell through a wall.

I actually had no idea how HE's and CPS aoe stacked against each other. Imo If you look it that way, then yes, ability becomes extremely situational compared to what it used to be. Also doesn't ISU have some kind of hard limit of how much models it can kill with one shot?
12 Dec 2021, 15:10 PM
#34
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 779 | Subs: 1


I actually had no idea how HE's and CPS aoe stacked against each other. Imo If you look it that way, then yes, ability becomes extremely situational compared to what it used to be. Also doesn't ISU have some kind of hard limit of how much models it can kill with one shot?


no it most certainly does not have a limit as to how many it can kill - i can personally confirm this
MMX
12 Dec 2021, 15:15 PM
#35
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1


[...] Also doesn't ISU have some kind of hard limit of how much models it can kill with one shot?


7 per squad :P
12 Dec 2021, 15:15 PM
#36
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 2933 | Subs: 2


I actually had no idea how HE's and CPS aoe stacked against each other. Imo If you look it that way, then yes, ability becomes extremely situational compared to what it used to be. Also doesn't ISU have some kind of hard limit of how much models it can kill with one shot?

Afaik, there is no hard limit to damaged or killed models.

The previous CPS profile was very different from the HE shell. I understand that they changed it because a range 70 shot with large OHK radius is just frustrating and unfair to play against, but at least the ability was providing a different shell.
It is obviously not the same as the HE or the AT shell, it is just very boring. Like both shells in one, a bit better and piercing, but you only get one shot. It does not really add that much anymore.

I am not sure how large the delay was before the changes, now it is about 4 seconds. Which opens op the possibility to cheese a normal HE shell followed up by a CPS slightly behind the retreating team weapon.

As an easy fix, I think it should just get cheaper, and increase the CD if necessary to prevent spamming. A more complicated fix would be to craft a completely new ability. I could imagine something like an AT focused stun shot, owing to the large caliber or so.
12 Dec 2021, 15:16 PM
#37
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 2933 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2021, 15:15 PMMMX


7 per squad :P

This stolen ISU really seems to haunt you...
12 Dec 2021, 15:28 PM
#39
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 767

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2021, 15:15 PMMMX


7 per squad :P

Oof, sounds like you got really unlucky :lol:
MMX
12 Dec 2021, 15:31 PM
#40
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1


This stolen ISU really seems to haunt you...


Still shell-shocked from the pre-nerf model I guess...

Anyway, I agree the ability could use some love. I mean, shooting through walls and with laser guidance is nice, but for the price tag it should maybe have something more unique than that. A stun vs tanks à la shell shock could indeed be one way to go, or suppression vs inf in a small radius around the explosion if the focus should go back to AI duties.
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