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My real problem with COH3

9 Dec 2021, 15:38 PM
#41
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1460



Because Fallschirmjäger squads can capture an abandoned tank just like any other infantry squad.

It was more of a tongue in cheek comment anyway


Oh, I see. Well, hats of to you good sir. Didn't think of that xD
9 Dec 2021, 15:45 PM
#42
avatar of Gbpirate
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 1048

I think OP is getting this wrong because the community involvement in coh3 so far has been about faction design. Maybe map design as a secondary role, too.

In principle, it is a bit shady that Relic is putting lots of balance and art work on members of the community that volunteer their time. Saves them money on labour costs but I'm sure it's a labour of love for the people involved. I may disagree with the way the community team is balancing the game (and the somewhat silly "scope" we had to deal with) but if Relic is willing to let community members shape the game rather than end any and all support then I'm happy with the system.



Let the community shape the way the game is designed and let them shape the way its balanced. I'd love some balance polls put out by Relic before and after the game is live so they can get some data that's easy to read and everyone can feel like they're participating. You can't ever know if a Relic employee is reading your rant on the forums.
9 Dec 2021, 15:50 PM
#43
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 967 | Subs: 1



I don't get it. Vehicle abandonment is a good mechanic in COH2. What's wrong with it. Definitely adds another layer, especially to 1v1s


No its not, not in a single way its a good mechanic. Not from pro-players perspective, not from the casual perspective. Abandonment is an example of pure, non-player dependant RNG.

Abandonment either gives one player a second chance when he player wrong or it punishes the player when he player right. Not speaking about situations when abandonment happens in the middle of the map, so it just as good as dead anyway.

But for instance I had games, where I miss player and let enemy dive my rocket arty, instead of being destoyed it got abandoned. Or when I dived to finish the enemy and in process my tank got abandoned.

Not even talking about the frustration aspect, but from a pure army value perspective. Because any tank is a huge boost to your army value and quite big res investment and the fact that one player can essentially get such unit for free based on RNG is just a bad mechanic.

CoH2 is full of RNG, but most of the RNG is predictable. Sure BS sometimes happens, like PIVJ being able to either deflect all shots or being penetrated all the times, but its predictable RNG.

Abandonment on the other hand is like downed plane killing your whole army, because RNG event decided that you need to lose the game, just because. Without your involvement and without any possible counter-play, because its either happens or its not.

Aside from "Wow, lol, cool haha" factor, abandonment has absolutely 0 possitive value.
Pip
9 Dec 2021, 15:53 PM
#44
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580



No its not, not in a single way its a good mechanic. Not from pro-players perspective, not from the casual perspective. Abandonment is an example of pure, non-player dependant RNG.

Abandonment either gives one player a second chance when he player wrong or it punishes the player when he player right. Not speaking about situations when abandonment happens in the middle of the map, so it just as good as dead anyway.

But for instance I had games, where I miss player and let enemy dive my rocket arty, instead of being destoyed it got abandoned. Or when I dived to finish the enemy and in process my tank got abandoned.

Not even talking about the frustration aspect, but from a pure army value perspective. Because any tank is a huge boost to your army value and quite big res investment and the fact that one player can essentially get such unit for free based on RNG is just a bad mechanic.

CoH2 is full of RNG, but most of the RNG is predictable. Sure BS sometimes happens, like PIVJ being able to either deflect all shots or being penetrated all the times, but its predictable RNG.

Abandonment on the other hand is like downed plane killing your whole army, because RNG event decided that you need to lose the game, just because. Without your involvement and without any possible counter-play, because its either happens or its not.


But you see, Gachi; Bad features are apparently what make CoH... "CoH", and removing bad features or improving other features is "Streamlining" the game, and somehow making it the same as Starcraft (???).

The game is perfect and nothing should ever change and if you think differently you are some sort of "Esportser".

EDIT: Reminder that abandons weren't even present in CoH1, so anyone arguing that they're part of the "DNA" of CoH or some other rubbish is being very disingenuous.
9 Dec 2021, 16:03 PM
#45
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 519



No its not, not in a single way its a good mechanic. Not from pro-players perspective, not from the casual perspective. Abandonment is an example of pure, non-player dependant RNG.

Abandonment either gives one player a second chance when he player wrong or it punishes the player when he player right. Not speaking about situations when abandonment happens in the middle of the map, so it just as good as dead anyway.

But for instance I had games, where I miss player and let enemy dive my rocket arty, instead of being destoyed it got abandoned. Or when I dived to finish the enemy and in process my tank got abandoned.

Not even talking about the frustration aspect, but from a pure army value perspective. Because any tank is a huge boost to your army value and quite big res investment and the fact that one player can essentially get such unit for free based on RNG is just a bad mechanic.

CoH2 is full of RNG, but most of the RNG is predictable. Sure BS sometimes happens, like PIVJ being able to either deflect all shots or being penetrated all the times, but its predictable RNG.

Abandonment on the other hand is like downed plane killing your whole army, because RNG event decided that you need to lose the game, just because. Without your involvement and without any possible counter-play, because its either happens or its not.

Aside from "Wow, lol, cool haha" factor, abandonment has absolutely 0 possitive value.

I agree with everything you said and a possible solution could be ranked and unranked 1v1 since it is creates the largest swing in this mode. Leave the extreme RNG mechanics in the larger modes to keep the flavor and wild memes going.
9 Dec 2021, 16:08 PM
#46
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 967 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Dec 2021, 15:53 PMPip


But you see, Gachi; Bad features are apparently what make CoH... "CoH", and removing bad features or improving other features is "Streamlining" the game, and somehow making it the same as Starcraft (???).

The game is perfect and nothing should ever change and if you think differently you are some sort of "Esportser".


I honestly think its the way which balance team chose to fix those features what trigger people. While things like abandonment in its core is a bad feature (and I really hope they will scrap this recovery vehicle shit from CoH3 because its x2 worst then abandonment), some of them had its rights to be in the game, but the lack of any compinsation mechanics pretty much forced to be remade into what we have now.

For instance, in vCoH all explosion\inderect fire units were much more deadly, just like in CoH2 at launch, but vCoH also had medics which allowed you to at least somehow not fall completely behind if you got few units wiped.

CoH2 on the other hand, didnt have any of those and the easiest solution to fix them - either nerf or remove them.

But I also dont understand this claim that coh2 was made into starcraft, since the only thing which was changed is the random 1 hit wipes from mines\inderect fire. I dont see how this makes the game starcraft. Maybe if every faction had their version of pre-nerfed ST coh would have still be coh.


I agree with everything you said and a possible solution could be ranked and unranked 1v1 since it is creates the largest swing in this mode. Leave the extreme RNG mechanics in the larger modes to keep the flavor and wild memes going.


Actually questinable solution. Team Fortress 2 tried different balance from ranked and un-ranked games. Baning weapons and removing mechanics like random crits in competitive and, as far as I know, not many players like this solution.

I just belive, that when creating a mechanics developers need to think with their heads and not asses when creating features. Because "meme" features are nice, when they are happening to your enemy and not you. There are plenty of ways to create meme possabilities with different abilities and strats, but all of them should requare player involvement, like "close the pocket" for instance.
Pip
9 Dec 2021, 16:26 PM
#47
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580



I honestly think its the way which balance team chose to fix those features what trigger people. While things like abandonment in its core is a bad feature (and I really hope they will scrap this recovery vehicle shit from CoH3 because its x2 worst then abandonment), some of them had its rights to be in the game, but the lack of any compinsation mechanics pretty much forced to be remade into what we have now.


I'd agree, but unfortunately I doubt it. At least in CoH1 the bergtiger could only repair axis wrecks, whereas the USF recovery vehicle seems like it'll be able to repair /all/ vehicles.


For instance, in vCoH all explosion\inderect fire units were much more deadly, just like in CoH2 at launch, but vCoH also had medics which allowed you to at least somehow not fall completely behind if you got few units wiped.

CoH2 on the other hand, didnt have any of those and the easiest solution to fix them - either nerf or remove them.


The medic system from CoH1 had its own severe problems... "Zombie Squads" were absolutely retarded. CoH3's medic system seems much improved over 1s, with "saved" units providing small MP discounts rather than producing free squads. It also seems like both USF and Wehr have these medics... I thought it was just going to be an USF thing in 3? (I'm not complaining about this)

Also: Losing units (Even with zombie squads) was way more punishing for USF than WEHR, given the way veterancy worked. I'm definitely glad they did away with the factional veterancy mechanics for CoH2 and 3.




But I also dont understand this claim that coh2 was made into starcraft, since the only thing which was changed is the random 1 hit wipes from mines\inderect fire. I dont see how this makes the game starcraft. Maybe if every faction had their version of pre-nerfed ST coh would have still be coh.


Anyone who actually argues this to be the case is either an idiot, or simply doesn't have a real argument. CoH is nothing like starcraft, and none of the changes suggested make it closer to starcraft in any way.




Actually questinable solution. Team Fortress 2 tried different balance from ranked and un-ranked games. Baning weapons and removing mechanics like random crits in competitive and, as far as I know, not many players like this solution.

I just belive, that when creating a mechanics developers need to think with their heads and not asses when creating features. Because "meme" features are nice, when they are happening to your enemy and not you. There are plenty of ways to create meme possabilities with different abilities and strats, but all of them should requare player involvement, like "close the pocket" for instance.


This is it, really. The game shouldn't fundamentally be different dependent on what mode you play. Changes that benefit "Ranked", or "Competitive", or "High skill" players benefit the game as a whole, and there's 0 reason to have two totally separate experiences.
9 Dec 2021, 16:50 PM
#48
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 967 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Dec 2021, 16:26 PMPip

I'd agree, but unfortunately I doubt it. At least in CoH1 the bergtiger could only repair axis wrecks, whereas the USF recovery vehicle seems like it'll be able to repair /all/ vehicles.

What really scares me, is that Wehr will also have such vehicle (since it was in the files) and even considering you are paying some amount of res. to repair destoyed wreck its still insane BS. It was added probably because a lot of comp stompers cryed on the forum that they want at least somesort of abandonment iteration back in the game. But I still hope, they at least restrict it to your own tanks. Otherwise all wrecks would requare destroying instantly.

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Dec 2021, 16:26 PMPip

The medic system from CoH1 had its own severe problems... "Zombie Squads" were absolutely retarded. CoH3's medic system seems much improved over 1s, with "saved" units providing small MP discounts rather than producing free squads. It also seems like both USF and Wehr have these medics... I thought it was just going to be an USF thing in 3? (I'm not complaining about this)

Actually Wehr still have zombie grens with defensive field marshal. :D But its significatnly harder, to get them then in CoH1 anyway.
9 Dec 2021, 17:02 PM
#49
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 753

I think 4v4 could be a casual variation within the game, with all the crazy RNG mechanics COH2 has/had.
Competitive mods, should be competitive, without clutch main gun crits and abandons. Especially this prevalent in 1v1, where 1 bad/good RNG roll could influence the fait of a match.
9 Dec 2021, 18:01 PM
#51
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

Though some of the old issues that made old coh kinda awful are coming back (Looking at you call ins, stupid fucking mechanic)


Balance is still in a super early WIP state. I have no idea why the CoH3 devs didn't implement the latest Coh2 QoL fixes (including heavy call-in cooldown upon destruction and tech requirements), but the internal group is discussing it. Seeing how much player suggestions/feedback were already put in, I'm sure this will (eventually) be on the list as well. At least they didn't go back to vCoH manpower-only call-ins lol.
9 Dec 2021, 18:18 PM
#52
avatar of TanithScout

Posts: 67

Mobas were 'it' for a while... then the battle royale pandemic came along and we are still in its midst.

Devs WILL tank franchises jus tso they can switch, see Epic with paragon/Fortnite.
9 Dec 2021, 18:41 PM
#53
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 605

No its not, not in a single way its a good mechanic. Not from pro-players perspective, not from the casual perspective.


Speak for yourself. I am a casual player, and from my perspective it's a good mechanic because it's fun and doesn't happen often enough so that it's a big issue, but happens rarely enough so that when it does happen it's kind of an exciting moment.
9 Dec 2021, 19:23 PM
#55
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1844 | Subs: 1

I think OP is getting this wrong because the community involvement in coh3 so far has been about faction design. Maybe map design as a secondary role, too.

In principle, it is a bit shady that Relic is putting lots of balance and art work on members of the community that volunteer their time. Saves them money on labour costs but I'm sure it's a labour of love for the people involved. I may disagree with the way the community team is balancing the game (and the somewhat silly "scope" we had to deal with) but if Relic is willing to let community members shape the game rather than end any and all support then I'm happy with the system.



This. On second thought what hurts my brain most about the OP is the idea that COH3 would be a better game if Relic took a "know it all" approach to game design instead of community feedback to shape the game so that it would be the kind of game that the community would actually want to play. Personally I think the new battlegroup and Field Marshal/Support Center faction design looks light years ahead of COH2's commander system. PLUS the core unit roster has tons of upgrade and teching paths and tactical/strategy choices so that it's not a COH2 shit show where some factions have glaring holes in their faction design. I think COH3 looks really promising from a basic design standpoint and think we have community feedback to thank for at some of that. We should also remember how early the game is in development too.

The only possible concern would be that "top level" players would nudge the game into the kind of game where you would need "top level" skill to really enjoy it. I don't think that's a serious concern at all because a company will always try to make a game with the broadest appeal possible.
9 Dec 2021, 19:24 PM
#56
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1


I don't get it. Vehicle abandonment is a good mechanic in COH2. What's wrong with it. Definitely adds another layer, especially to 1v1s

So you mocked someone else's idea and then said this. Just lol

Is that why they had to change the mechanic multiple times? Nonsense
9 Dec 2021, 19:51 PM
#57
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 967 | Subs: 1



Speak for yourself. I am a casual player, and from my perspective it's a good mechanic because it's fun and doesn't happen often enough so that it's a big issue, but happens rarely enough so that when it does happen it's kind of an exciting moment.


Well and as I was saying aside from "wow fun and exciting" factor it brings absolutely nothing into the game, but frustration when it happens in actuall semi-competitive game.

Just look from a progmatic perspective:
What cons/pros does it have for a fun factor
What cons/pros does it have for a competitive factor (not e-sport one, just regular automatch MP)

As far as I see, its cons outweights the pros, sure it happens rarely but when it happens you either dont care about it, or it shift the game in one RNG roll.
9 Dec 2021, 20:13 PM
#58
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 605


As far as I see, its cons outweights the pros, sure it happens rarely but when it happens you either dont care about it, or it shift the game in one RNG roll.


That's what forum posters on here seem to forget about the other portion of the people who play the game. Not everyone is so fixated on RNG making or breaking the game. I play to have fun. Abandons are fun. Simple as. And there are plenty others like me who play CoH2 just as much as you and I do.
9 Dec 2021, 20:16 PM
#59
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 605

At the very least I can agree with you that CoH3's USF recovery machine is absolutely insane. You want to talk about "punishing offensive gameplay"? Now THAT's what punishing offensive gameplay looks like.
9 Dec 2021, 21:20 PM
#60
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 1

How about a fun tourney with a 100% abandon chance mod.

I'd watch that
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