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Upgunning the soviets - the IS-2

2 Dec 2021, 15:24 PM
#1
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 398 | Subs: 1

I have a lot of respect and appreciation for the IS-2 in games, i spammed both the IS-2 commanders for a fair while, trying to make it work. I have gotten them to vet 3 and what not, i saw my allies use them, and more.

It has health, armor, good anti-infantry (inferior to the tiger 1 IMO, but i digress), so whats exactly wrong with it?

I would say that the only flaw of the is-2 is that its pretty much an obese t-34/85. You can stand your ground vs individual german tanks (up to panther level), but you immediately lose initiative if the panther you're fighting has any sort of support (or multiple unit combinations that match the cost of your is-2), and will retreat. If the enemy has stronger armor (JT, elefant, king tiger), you lose the game outright, these hard counter the is-2 and there's nothing you can really do about it.


So the "only flaw" is pretty severe, while you have alright anti infantry & can penetrate premium mediums "reliably", you are doing only 160 damage per hit, which is REALLY lackluster and limits your stopping power significantly. You take a while to kill panthers and cant exactly chase them due to your tendency to miss on the move & being slower than panthers.

The best solution, objectively, is to bump the IS-2 fuel cost to 250 fuel, but now your damage increases to 240 at veterancy 2/3, matching the ISU-152 at veterancy zero, panthers are now 4 hit kills, rather than 6 hit kills AND rewarding unit preservation, and life is good.
2 Dec 2021, 15:29 PM
#2
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 318

I have lost games where I dominated and a vet0 panther just snipes me from far. Even when I outflanked them with the IS2(lol) the ROF is what did me in. That thing misses to much for how slow it shoots. I think it’s a good unit that forces escalation on OST but against OKW panther is always available so not cost effective.
2 Dec 2021, 15:31 PM
#3
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

That would be ridiculously overpowered. That would give it over 3000 DPM, way more than the Tiger and even more than the Tiger II, on a heavily armored and relatively mobile chassis.

The IS-2 is fine. It just suffers from superheavy TDs in teamgames hardcountering it on open maps.
2 Dec 2021, 15:55 PM
#4
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 707

Definitely not a teamgame tank. Seen it being used on Belgorod several times, but otherwise not a good investment. Better get 2x t34, or t34 and SU85, or Katy with su85 etc.
It really suffers from force concentration in team games and general Axis' design. In 1v1 this is not such a big issue, because too much AT (2x panthers, ELE, JT, with rax or pax) is more punishable then in teamgames, especially 3v3 and 4v4.
2 Dec 2021, 17:22 PM
#5
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2593 | Subs: 2

Just to add to others (without having played the IS-2 much myself):
I think the main issues for team games are
1. a Panther can stop it. If the IS2 pops out of the fog of war unexpectedly, your Panther can still sit there and trade. And while this fight is fairly even to slightly in the IS2's favor (from what I know), the IS2 is usually trading down in terms of value. You can't break through in this scenario. The other way around: Tiger ambushes Allies, the Allies have to run and can at least temporarily secure the position.
2. No burst or alpha damage. The IS2 takes a long time to take out even a medium tank, it just isn't very cost effective in that regard. So you want to use it against infantry, but for this purpose just get a Katy. The IS2 has a good AI cannon, but it is not as wipey as a Katyusha, therefore it won't secure squad wipes as easily.
3. If the opponents get a JT or Elefant, which often the case, your IS2 is almost useless.
4. I am not sure about this point, but might it be that killing infantry does not give you as much XP as fighting tanks? At vet3, the IS2 is VERY good, but I find it hard to get to there. Harder than just using a Tiger.
2 Dec 2021, 17:42 PM
#6
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1238

IS2 prenerf was usable in teamgames, but now it's a meme cannon that is only really good vs unexperienced players which get terrified if they see a heavy tank. It's still a good heavy tank but most prone to RNG due to it's slow rate of fire. Don't play IS2 in teamgames. Katyusha, T3485, SU85 and elite infantry is the way to go, not heavy tanks like these.

That would be ridiculously overpowered. That would give it over 3000 DPM, way more than the Tiger and even more than the Tiger II, on a heavily armored and relatively mobile chassis.

The IS-2 is fine. It just suffers from superheavy TDs in teamgames hardcountering it on open maps.


Tiger Ace in vet3 has 3000 DPM, 1280 HP and 50 range, while costing a bit more than a regular Tiger and coming a few minutes later, so I don't quite get your point.
While I don't think that IS2 needs 240 dmg, at vet3 it would be a 3200 DPM unit, so not much more potent than a vet3 Tiger Ace, whilst having less hp and a bit more armor and worse scatter. So one hit of damage more, but with worse scatter, who knows what the "true" DPM is.


But the problem will always be the fact that a Tiger will always be able to breakthrough allied defenses and an IS2 will not. Hence you go for something that can break it. Range and rocket arty.
If you see that the enemy is MEH, then you go for an IS2, but if you see Panthers and pak40s, you'll never break that with an IS2 without rocket arty (if you have the pop space).

On paper, IS2 looks better than a Tiger 1 but when you consider the faction it's in and what it's going against, you need to understand that IS2 is not a unit that will win you the game
2 Dec 2021, 18:54 PM
#7
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

Tiger Ace in vet3 has 3000 DPM, 1280 HP and 50 range, while costing a bit more than a regular Tiger and coming a few minutes later, so I don't quite get your point.


Don't know where you're getting that number, a vet 3 Tiger/Ace has an average reload of 3.75s with 160 damage for a total of 2560 DPM. Nowhere near the 3044 that a 240dmg IS-2 would have. Even the Tiger II only has around 2900 DPM with the vet reload bonus, and that unit is way more expensive and trades its amazing gun against garbage mobility.
2 Dec 2021, 19:28 PM
#8
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1238



Don't know where you're getting that number, a vet 3 Tiger/Ace has an average reload of 3.75s with 160 damage for a total of 2560 DPM. Nowhere near the 3044 that a 240dmg IS-2 would have. Even the Tiger II only has around 2900 DPM with the vet reload bonus, and that unit is way more expensive and trades its amazing gun against garbage mobility.


Not 3.29? 60/3.29*160 = 2920 ~~ 3000. Basically a hit here or there, but that's besides the point. IS2 is fine whichever way you put it, but didn't deserve all of the hard nerfs it go a couple of patches ago
2 Dec 2021, 19:52 PM
#9
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 797

I guess it's time again for an IS-2 thread?

I'll give the usual disclaimer - too many ppl (balance team included) have PTSD from the 'heavy tank era'/Tiger stalls. This sabotages possible buffs to even the IS-2. At this point I think it's more likely you'll see a KT buff than an IS-2 buff.
2 Dec 2021, 20:15 PM
#10
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2067 | Subs: 1

2 Dec 2021, 20:35 PM
#11
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 398 | Subs: 1

I guess it's time again for an IS-2 thread?

I'll give the usual disclaimer - too many ppl (balance team included) have PTSD from the 'heavy tank era'/Tiger stalls. This sabotages possible buffs to even the IS-2. At this point I think it's more likely you'll see a KT buff than an IS-2 buff.


the thing is

people in BOTH axis factions stall for king tigers AND normal tigers, or for superheavy TDs. Soviet ALREADY has a heavy TD that is objectively superior to the is-2, and my chances propose buffs to the vet 3 is-2, not vet 0 is-2


I have seen 10 times more tigers than i have seen allied 230 fuel heavies. In 1v1s its objectively superior to go KV-1s and su-85s than an is-2 and su-85s, in team mode its objectively superior to go the ISU-152 and whatever else you muster, or go heavy medium focus, or go the kv-2


the is-2 is a good tank for bullying the enemy panzer 4 and to duke it out with a panther, and kill it if its afk

things got shitty stopping power for the price, the tiger has i think the same damage, but it faces off vs either fragile health (T-34s) or tanks that cant penetrate it (kv-1/churchill), and has combat blitz and occasionally smoke to boot
2 Dec 2021, 20:48 PM
#12
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 398 | Subs: 1

Just to add to others (without having played the IS-2 much myself):
I think the main issues for team games are
1. a Panther can stop it. If the IS2 pops out of the fog of war unexpectedly, your Panther can still sit there and trade. And while this fight is fairly even to slightly in the IS2's favor (from what I know), the IS2 is usually trading down in terms of value. You can't break through in this scenario. The other way around: Tiger ambushes Allies, the Allies have to run and can at least temporarily secure the position.
2. No burst or alpha damage. The IS2 takes a long time to take out even a medium tank, it just isn't very cost effective in that regard. So you want to use it against infantry, but for this purpose just get a Katy. The IS2 has a good AI cannon, but it is not as wipey as a Katyusha, therefore it won't secure squad wipes as easily.
3. If the opponents get a JT or Elefant, which often the case, your IS2 is almost useless.
4. I am not sure about this point, but might it be that killing infantry does not give you as much XP as fighting tanks? At vet3, the IS2 is VERY good, but I find it hard to get to there. Harder than just using a Tiger.


this is what im talking about, the damage is apparently good, but the game is not a testing range and panthers wont sit down for 30 seconds. You can fight off panthers and the like, but you take a good beating from it as well, despite beating it after 3 years

vet 3 is-2 is good but honestly it should be better, allies still don't have a breakthrough tank, meanwhile the axis have panzer commanders, heat shells, blitz and smoke, should've given them meth as well
2 Dec 2021, 22:21 PM
#13
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4071 | Subs: 3

I guess it's time again for an IS-2 thread?

I'll give the usual disclaimer - too many ppl (balance team included) have PTSD from the 'heavy tank era'/Tiger stalls. This sabotages possible buffs to even the IS-2. At this point I think it's more likely you'll see a KT buff than an IS-2 buff.


I agree with the idea that many people are afraid of buffing heavies since they remember the heavy stall meta. IMO that was the absolute worst teamgame meta I've seen in this game. Recently i've been using heavies including tiger 1s, pershings and the ISU, but haven't tried the IS-2. Remembering the backlash after heavies were nerfed and everyone thought they were unusable, they're actually mostly ok, and I think the tiger 1 was the only tank to have its nerfs partially reverted. While they're not game ending anymore, they do have their very blatant strengths and weaknesses, mainly AT walls.

Due to the very blatant lack of IS-2 i've seen being played it could probably use a minor buff. I never understood why the pershing has a longer reload than the IS-2 because the IS-2 had a 2 stage shell, but that's just thematic. A damage buff to 200 would assist in dealing with panthers and heavies while keeping TTK solo vs mediums the same. It would also be nice to have something to point to when it's claimed it uses a 122mm shell and does the same damage as the long 75 p4 lol. Always if need be, nerfs accompanied by the damage buff can always be considered such as price, mobility or reload.
2 Dec 2021, 22:36 PM
#14
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1238

Did allies even stall for heavies in the "heavy meta" phase? I know I usually stall for a Pershing and I get it at around 17-21 minutes, depending on the game, without losing anything really. Only know I go for a Sherman if we have such a dominating lead that a min 12 sherman can close the game.
Did Soviets stall for an IS-2 and win games? Or Crocodile? Or Pershing?
I remember everyone stalled for a Tiger1, Tiger Ace and King Tigers and pretty much steamrolled away.
2 Dec 2021, 22:49 PM
#15
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3505 | Subs: 3

The best solution, objectively, is to bump the IS-2 fuel cost to 250 fuel, but now your damage increases to 240 at veterancy 2/3, matching the ISU-152 at veterancy zero, panthers are now 4 hit kills, rather than 6 hit kills AND rewarding unit preservation, and life is good.


haha what?
2 Dec 2021, 23:00 PM
#16
avatar of comm_ash
Patrion 14

Posts: 1186 | Subs: 1

Personally, I think the IS2 is crippled by being originally designed in COH as an analogue to the Tiger 1, when historically it was closer to the Tiger 2 in terms of armor protection and firepower. If I could redesign the unit from the ground up, I would make it a heavily armored, slow RoF vehicle with the same main gun damage stats as the KT (Slower reload obviously.) To compensate for slow RoF, it should instead have faster movement speed than the KT, and maybe a wider AoE on each shell so it damages infantry in a wider radius (but doesn't kill anymore than the KT does.)

It would obviously have to be priced around as much as a KT with these changes though.
2 Dec 2021, 23:21 PM
#17
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1238

Personally, I think the IS2 is crippled by being originally designed in COH as an analogue to the Tiger 1, when historically it was closer to the Tiger 2 in terms of armor protection and firepower. If I could redesign the unit from the ground up, I would make it a heavily armored, slow RoF vehicle with the same main gun damage stats as the KT (Slower reload obviously.) To compensate for slow RoF, it should instead have faster movement speed than the KT, and maybe a wider AoE on each shell so it damages infantry in a wider radius (but doesn't kill anymore than the KT does.)

It would obviously have to be priced around as much as a KT with these changes though.


All of the bulletin descriptions match that as well. "It did not penetrate, it just exploded Tigers with 122mm", and yet ingame it's not really impactful. I'd also be for such a redesign, priced the same as the stock King Tiger, stats mimicked but unique. KT would have it's weaknesses and strengths, and so would the IS2
3 Dec 2021, 00:07 AM
#18
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 390

should've given them meth as well


I agree with this. Why doesn't the Blitzkrieg commander have panzershokolade upgrade for tank crews?
3 Dec 2021, 00:22 AM
#19
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 398 | Subs: 1



All of the bulletin descriptions match that as well. "It did not penetrate, it just exploded Tigers with 122mm", and yet ingame it's not really impactful. I'd also be for such a redesign, priced the same as the stock King Tiger, stats mimicked but unique. KT would have it's weaknesses and strengths, and so would the IS2

this is the ideal solution, to turn it into a king tiger for the allies


but this would mean that the allies get an assault tank, god forbid the balance team lets allies have actually threatening heavy armor


They have Ptsd of some ancient time while current team mode is king tiger into elefant into overwatch or jagdtiger and nothing fucking else but axis heavy armor, its literally only heavy armor and lefh spam

its sure fucking fun, but god forbid the allies beat our armor that we can fucking a-move at this point
3 Dec 2021, 00:59 AM
#20
avatar of MassaDerek

Posts: 84

I guess it's time again for an IS-2 thread?

I'll give the usual disclaimer - too many ppl (balance team included) have PTSD from the 'heavy tank era'/Tiger stalls. This sabotages possible buffs to even the IS-2. At this point I think it's more likely you'll see a KT buff than an IS-2 buff.


KT is in a very strong meta state in both teamgames and 1v1 atm, ovewatch is literally meta to be as cancerous as possible, including getting double jaegers at 1cp and stalling for p4.
Then getting a KT and if they don't have dedicated AA, you autowin because of quad stuka planes eviscerating any allied armor
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