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USF after Balancefinders and Scotts get nerfed

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19 Nov 2021, 17:46 PM
#41
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 725



While I agree on most parts, OKW can really outblob USF in ONLY two ways:
A) Fussie blobs with G43s -> cancerous when the opening unit is a terminator spio. Those blobs can outblob USF in every stage of the game
B) Ober/falls blobs. I've seen 3-4x ober blobs that are impossible to counter if you don't have a rocket arty. Heck, seen 3x obers mow down 2x vet3 double BAR rifles in yellow cover on long range in about 8 seconds. That's less than 1 second per model. Falls can mow down as well. Hence, if you don't have a calliope: GG. Even the path + scott meta can't stand up to the 2x raketen + KT + ober blobs lategame.

Otherwise, OKW can't outblob USF. USF with the free officers kinda is the definition of a "have 2-3 bigger control groups". Not necessarily the classical blob, but definitely lots of models in one area.


3 ways Falls or Obers by themselves blobed can do it. In a lot of games I feel like wiping a volks squad is a curse because they are just going to replace it with obers in fact i think sometimes they do it intentionally lol. Any other faction this would be a big loss, for okw can be seen as a benefit almost.

And both those docts are some of the most used dosent matter really they always have obers, but okw can still always out blob usf because they ALWAYS have access to stuka and you might not have access to caliope. It basicly says im free to blob while you are punished for it, but blobbing against those above mention strategies is the only way you can even go about trying to engage them.
19 Nov 2021, 18:50 PM
#42
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2759 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Nov 2021, 13:35 PMGiaA


Never agreed more with a post on this site. Why was stadtschutt removed? Because people don't like maps that don't allow them to stay in their "double pak, LMG blob, a-move" comfort zone. So many good maps have been removed because of this and they are replaced by overrated lane maps because it is obvious how to play those.

Case in point: Whiteball is the most popular 4v4 map even though it is an unbalanced piece of garbage. But it makes people feel comfortable EVEN when playing with the side that is disadvantaged by the map.

Also, I don't even think pathfinder blobs are that good in 2v2. It is very easy to lose to them if you're not on top of your game but once you know what's coming it should be possible to overrun them. However, this requires good team coordination which is almost non existent.


P R E A C H !

19 Nov 2021, 19:56 PM
#43
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 593

I never understood why they changed the Scott so that it overlaps with the pak howi. They nerfed pak howi AOE because going 2 of them was strong against blobby-campy players. They gave it the mega useless, more bleed 1 extra guy (who is clumped up with the rest of the weapon team so no real survivability there), and with already on a 1.25 RA modifier, just straight up nerfed it.
Instead of making the pak howi a strong barrage weapon (eg hitting a super clumped up yellow cover squad means death and not just 1 model down with 15% hp left). It's really comical. I always go for double pak in every 3v3 I play and in each and every one of them, paks reach vet2-3 with less than 10 kills on each. The nerf really hammered down the lethality of it. You pay 340 just to damage infantry.

Scott could have been a mini brummbar to deal with fussie/ober blobs but it's just a barraging tool.... like the pak howi.

Rifles go down as the game progresses because the fights are no longer close to medium range, so long range specialists dominate (obers, JLI, falls). Coupled with the annoyingly long snare animation. Just now lost 2 squads of rifles to 2 obers trying to snare two 1 pixel HP P4Js, vet2 obers took down 2 vet3 rifles on medium range faster than each rifle managed to fire one snare on each P4. Comical.

USF is fine as is in 1v1s. 2v2 you really need to be careful and rely on paths to negate some maps (bad design, wide arc MG can push you back easily with a bit of micro).

3v3 is horrible for USF on most maps.

Don't play 4v4 so not gonna comment. Doubt it's any better.



If they nerf the pathfinders because some low rank people find them OP, well... after the scott rework into a mobile pak howi and the constant stream of nerfs to indirects, they really will cement their position as "incompetent people of COH2"

foreal tho usa sucks now and i dont even likethem anymore. agree with everything u said
19 Nov 2021, 22:15 PM
#44
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1763 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Nov 2021, 13:35 PMGiaA
Case in point: Whiteball is the most popular 4v4 map even though it is an unbalanced piece of garbage. But it makes people feel comfortable EVEN when playing with the side that is disadvantaged by the map.

Yes White Ball currently favors axis just like all of the 4v4 maps do. See chart below:

Now if you are talking premade teams like the 4v4 tournaments, it will be allied favored because of pathfinders spotting for MGs and scotts guarding the middle VP. That is what started this whole discussion. No one cared about paths before that.

The goal of a 4v4 map is to have two players synergize on the fuel early. White Ball does that perfectly. The problem is paths synergize with MGs in an OP way and axis players have not found a good counter yet.

I would assume a single mortar with smoke would let people get past MGs and close range to the paths. Then rush a light vehicle if ZiS has not been seen. But I am noob.

In all other game modes Paths get rekt by light vehicles. Correct?

EDIT: Perhaps OST Mechanized or Infantry doctrines with an early 250?
19 Nov 2021, 22:41 PM
#45
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1485

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Nov 2021, 22:15 PMRosbone

Yes White Ball currently favors axis just like all of the 4v4 maps do. See chart below:

Now if you are talking premade teams like the 4v4 tournaments, it will be allied favored because of pathfinders spotting for MGs and scotts guarding the middle VP. That is what started this whole discussion. No one cared about paths before that.

The goal of a 4v4 map is to have two players synergize on the fuel early. White Ball does that perfectly. The problem is paths synergize with MGs in an OP way and axis players have not found a good counter yet.

I would assume a single mortar with smoke would let people get past MGs and close range to the paths. Then rush a light vehicle if ZiS has not been seen. But I am noob.

In all other game modes Paths get rekt by light vehicles. Correct?

EDIT: Perhaps OST Mechanized or Infantry doctrines with an early 250?


Smoke is generally the best friend against an MG, both with axis and allies. Soviets are perfect for it as their mortar is really really good. Forcing a mortar as USF is kinda like shooting yourself in the leg because you won't really be able to go for pak howis which are more expensive but doubled great at taking down forward HQs. No free smoke on them though.
Still, paths on their own are fine. They do synergize perfectly so you really need that smoke.
20 Nov 2021, 04:02 AM
#46
avatar of TehPowahOfWub

Posts: 99

If you want to nerf Pathfinders, nerf JLI too.

If you just want to nerf the Pathfinder's bar pick-up, rework USF so infantry can upgrade bars in the field and don't need a 200MP + 15FU sidetech + 120 munitions investment to stay competitive with LMG blobs.
20 Nov 2021, 08:48 AM
#47
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13286 | Subs: 1

If you want to nerf Pathfinders, nerf JLI too.
...

There is simply very little connection in set up of the two units. Timing, cost, pop and synergy with other unit in faction are simply different.
20 Nov 2021, 09:08 AM
#48
avatar of thekessvn

Posts: 102

they are the same. If you nerf Path then LJI must be nerfed too.
Both of them are agressive scouting unit,
20 Nov 2021, 09:39 AM
#49
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13286 | Subs: 1

they are the same. If you nerf Path then LJI must be nerfed too.
Both of them are agressive scouting unit,

Great lets make Pathfinder CP 1, 340 manpower units, that need to buy the scoped rifles after they tech.
There you have they will be nerfed and be the same.

Allow me to make a suggestion, if in your opinion JLI should be nerfed start a new thread about them explaining how and why they should be nerfed.
20 Nov 2021, 13:37 PM
#50
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

Imagine calling Stadtshit a good map. Some people’s ego ballooned too much when they were running around the map with their 251, sniper, double pak40s and 5man Gren horde it seems so they cling to that map through their nostalgia glasses. Maybe next we’ll hear the liquid vomit that is Moscow Outskirts is underrated because it’s not a lane map. Who knows. I’d like to know though why lane maps are bad when Elst is 3-5 lanes and a bunch of sight and shot blockers and is considered top 2 in the 2v2 pool.

Also @sander93 fields of winnekendonk is also a garbage map. Stadtshit needing improvements to be on par with it is not a commendation.
20 Nov 2021, 17:21 PM
#51
avatar of TehPowahOfWub

Posts: 99

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Nov 2021, 08:48 AMVipper

There is simply very little connection in set up of the two units. Timing, cost, pop and synergy with other unit in faction are simply different.


That post was meant to illustrate the issue of comparing units from different factions with different functions based on broad similarity, which I noticed was being used to justify nerfs for Pathfinders by more than a few individuals. When you start making these justifications it's easy to get in a circular argument. The post was not serious (or rather, it was as serious as I felt the other posts comparing PF to JLI were).

That said, I don't think the BARs on Paras are an issue. It takes 120 muni investment to really make them as potent as they need to be, and they end up dropping them all the time anyway. I think the problem is that most axis-only players (which are the ones making these suggestions) are not used to fighting a potent long-range allied infantry squad. You can see more reasonable answers from individuals who clearly play all factions and who are accustomed to dealing with these issues that often come in the form of LMG Gren blobs, and the tactics for dealing with that can broadly be transferred to dealing with Pathfinders.
20 Nov 2021, 18:29 PM
#52
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 990 | Subs: 1

There shouldn't be and cant be any comparison with JLI at least for one single reason alone.

JLI are awaible when you already have your inf roster more or less established.

Paths allow you to skip one, multiple or all rifle squads, meaning that you have your pop-cap freed for other units.

JLI on the other hand comming at 1CP already meaning that okw player will have at least 3 volks squads and 1 sp, and all of this eats pop-cap.

Tecnically OKW can lose thouse volks squads later on and replace them either with JLI or other elites, but its a huge MP dump and huge MP advantage for opposing player.

If JLI were 0CP inf with G43 locked behind grade, so OKW player would have been able to skip volks and use only JLI then this comparison could have had its place.
20 Nov 2021, 19:42 PM
#53
avatar of TehPowahOfWub

Posts: 99

There shouldn't be and cant be any comparison with JLI at least for one single reason alone.

JLI are awaible when you already have your inf roster more or less established.

Paths allow you to skip one, multiple or all rifle squads, meaning that you have your pop-cap freed for other units.

JLI on the other hand comming at 1CP already meaning that okw player will have at least 3 volks squads and 1 sp, and all of this eats pop-cap.

Tecnically OKW can lose thouse volks squads later on and replace them either with JLI or other elites, but its a huge MP dump and huge MP advantage for opposing player.

If JLI were 0CP inf with G43 locked behind grade, so OKW player would have been able to skip volks and use only JLI then this comparison could have had its place.


There's plenty of builds that revolve around stalling for 1CP, hell I've seen some players stall for 2CP to do Fall builds.

That said, you're right that there's no need to compare JLI and PF, and both are fine. Any problem people have with either is an l2p issue.
22 Nov 2021, 11:51 AM
#54
avatar of Ægion
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 750 | Subs: 2

Based on reading all comments before, I have some questions and answers. Once again you can see what I am talking about in my mod, but it feels like I have shilling a bit too much for it.

Pathfinders (and other light infantry)
Pathfinders are somewhat of a glass cannon seeing they are a 4 man squad with 1 target size. With two bars and two scoped rifles, they have a really high chance of dropping bars. They have great damage potential but a very squishy. They do also have doctrinal issues as well. They have an overlapping role with paratroopers and the recon support ones are weaker with one scoped rifle. They have to both compete with riflemen and paratroopers for their role. This is why I made these changes in my mod.

Pathfinders:
Manpower - 240
Target size - .8
Start with no slot items
-Their carbines are quite good. In this new stock state they are comparable to grenadiers. They have a lot of possibilities now as well. Such as now grabbing a pair of bazookas for an effective tank ambusher.

Can be upgraded with their two scoped rifles which have 40 range instead of 35 range while their carbines retain the 35 range. Gain the assassinate ability.
-This same for all the light infantry in my mod. This way a moving does not mean high damage but high support for other combat units. With no one man snipers anymore, in my mod, a single target snipe ability could be quite good when pushing into support weapons. The assassinate ability cost munitions. Scoped rifles consumes both weapon slots.

retains 0 CP
retains their camo
Only in recon support doctrine
Recon support (my mod)


Airborne (my mod)



Scott and late game arty.
I have always found the Scott in a weird place. It does not feel like it should be in that tier. I am not a fan of the Calliop to be non doctrinal either. If I put the 105 in that tier, then I am compelled to swap the Jackson with at dedicated 76 as well. (Got have the selection of Sherman, Sherman, and Sherman) What about the M7 Priest? Like all howitzers in my mod, I made it have an auto attack. Historically, the M7 was used in both direct and indirect roles. Right now I have the auto attack as a mix of a Brumbar and an ISU. I could mess around and tune it. It can retain a long range barrage ability while still provide a direct(ish) fire support for anti infantry usage. It would still have lower health than a Brumbar but have better range. The Scott could be moved to the Infantry that arrives earlier (5-6 CP?), retain some old stats, and have great mobility.

13 Apr 2022, 22:23 PM
#55
avatar of shinasukac

Posts: 61

nerf pathfinder nerf jli ,and how nerf jli? nerf it to 0cp and have sniper gun at summon then can pick 2 mg43 at base at the cost of 120ammo
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