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USF after Balancefinders and Scotts get nerfed

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17 Nov 2021, 12:45 PM
#1
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 932

Ok, Im sure we are all annoyed by the current USF meta

The question is: What to do with USF once it gets hit by the just nerfhammer? Cause the faction is totally unviable without it, at least in teamgames
17 Nov 2021, 12:51 PM
#2
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13149 | Subs: 1

Nerf other factions...
17 Nov 2021, 13:01 PM
#3
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2838 | Subs: 2

The question is: What to do with USF once it gets hit by the just nerfhammer?

Left in the dust.


Judging by Sanders comments over the last time, I assume that the balance team wanted USF to have a late game arty option like the calliope but Relic vetoed that. I think balance team also took the wrong turn when they changed the Scott into a barrage unit instead of auto fire. USF lacks late game wipe options in team games, so they have to opt for higher damage over time.

On the other hand, I am not quite sure to which extend this problem really exists. I somehow have the feeling this mostly is a top100 or maybe top200 issue, but please correct me if I am wrong.
For arranged teams, I think USF will still be viable. The Soviet player or a UKF arty regiment player can make up for a lack of indirect. Or more likely: USF will go back to Calliope doctrines only. The recent patch has not really changed this strategy all that much, I am actually wondering what happened to the Calliope meta.
17 Nov 2021, 14:31 PM
#4
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 753

Imagine single .30 cal rifles with Garands from rangers :drool:
But to be honest, I'm really struggling with USF in 2v2. Although it could be that my USF suck balls. Things that I really love in USF are jackson, m4a3 sherman and AA halftrack. Particularly HE sherman is such a beast: fast, great dps, low scatter high AOE with smoke. Scotts are great, but I'm really not used to having such indirect.

Imo there are some great tools within USF roster, but rifles just not fit for the gamemode. The faction is hard as is and if "helping" parties added to assist your enemy, then all your close to mid range infantry becomes extremely vulnerable. Also it is far easier to deal with HMGs if you have LMGs on your infantry. You just spread your squads and focus fire the bastard (unless he is in green cover). On the other hand .30 cal rifles feel kind of weak for some reason.
17 Nov 2021, 15:39 PM
#5
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 513

If they do nerf both units it is probably better to just take a step back and look at other unit performance. For example the 50cal used to be able to pack up extremely quick but it was nerfed hard. Now MG comes later and has nothing better vs MG42 except pen which is sort of useful but Armor piercing rounds are also available. If pack up time can’t be changed what about burst length.

Another more involved change could be one single up tech. So after you go LT or CPT and further tech for LV that tech counts for both. So if you back tech everything is available. It would make airborne less attractive.
17 Nov 2021, 16:06 PM
#6
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 702 | Subs: 1

If they do nerf both units it is probably better to just take a step back and look at other unit performance. For example the 50cal used to be able to pack up extremely quick but it was nerfed hard. Now MG comes later and has nothing better vs MG42 except pen which is sort of useful but Armor piercing rounds are also available. If pack up time can’t be changed what about burst length.

Another more involved change could be one single up tech. So after you go LT or CPT and further tech for LV that tech counts for both. So if you back tech everything is available. It would make airborne less attractive.


the mg-42 veterancy ability immediately invalidates the one and only advantage the .50 cal has, comical


narrow firing arc machine guns should by nature have fast setup/pickup times, but for some reason they do not, weird
17 Nov 2021, 18:56 PM
#7
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

Thankfully no more patches are coming so we’re spared.
17 Nov 2021, 19:22 PM
#8
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1460

I never understood why they changed the Scott so that it overlaps with the pak howi. They nerfed pak howi AOE because going 2 of them was strong against blobby-campy players. They gave it the mega useless, more bleed 1 extra guy (who is clumped up with the rest of the weapon team so no real survivability there), and with already on a 1.25 RA modifier, just straight up nerfed it.
Instead of making the pak howi a strong barrage weapon (eg hitting a super clumped up yellow cover squad means death and not just 1 model down with 15% hp left). It's really comical. I always go for double pak in every 3v3 I play and in each and every one of them, paks reach vet2-3 with less than 10 kills on each. The nerf really hammered down the lethality of it. You pay 340 just to damage infantry.

Scott could have been a mini brummbar to deal with fussie/ober blobs but it's just a barraging tool.... like the pak howi.

Rifles go down as the game progresses because the fights are no longer close to medium range, so long range specialists dominate (obers, JLI, falls). Coupled with the annoyingly long snare animation. Just now lost 2 squads of rifles to 2 obers trying to snare two 1 pixel HP P4Js, vet2 obers took down 2 vet3 rifles on medium range faster than each rifle managed to fire one snare on each P4. Comical.

USF is fine as is in 1v1s. 2v2 you really need to be careful and rely on paths to negate some maps (bad design, wide arc MG can push you back easily with a bit of micro).

3v3 is horrible for USF on most maps.

Don't play 4v4 so not gonna comment. Doubt it's any better.



If they nerf the pathfinders because some low rank people find them OP, well... after the scott rework into a mobile pak howi and the constant stream of nerfs to indirects, they really will cement their position as "incompetent people of COH2"
17 Nov 2021, 19:52 PM
#9
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 753

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Nov 2021, 16:06 PMKatukov


the mg-42 veterancy ability immediately invalidates the one and only advantage the .50 cal has, comical


narrow firing arc machine guns should by nature have fast setup/pickup times, but for some reason they do not, weird

well 50 cal still has faster pack up and set up...but there is a thing:
Vet2: -55% set up time, +40% weapon rotation speed.
and it does not work. I wonder if this is by intend or this is a bug
17 Nov 2021, 20:32 PM
#10
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1844 | Subs: 1

Assuming there is another patch at all... You can always strike some middle ground like nerfing Pathfinder's moving sight but after they are stationary for some amount of time they get their full LOS back (like spotting scopes).

Honestly I think this should be done with all "maphack" units as I feel like at some point it was decided to give a lost of doctrinal units large LOS and it just waters down the fog of war mechanic and tilts commander selection because of how absurdly useful the extra LOS is on top of the other officer/whatever abilities those units have. Really hope COH3 doesn't have all-in-one recon units like these. Stuff like T 70 recon mode and Major Recon Pass are much much better design IMO.
17 Nov 2021, 21:12 PM
#11
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 513

Assuming there is another patch at all... You can always strike some middle ground like nerfing Pathfinder's moving sight but after they are stationary for some amount of time they get their full LOS back (like spotting scopes).

Honestly I think this should be done with all "maphack" units as I feel like at some point it was decided to give a lost of doctrinal units large LOS and it just waters down the fog of war mechanic and tilts commander selection because of how absurdly useful the extra LOS is on top of the other officer/whatever abilities those units have. Really hope COH3 doesn't have all-in-one recon units like these. Stuff like T 70 recon mode and Major Recon Pass are much much better design IMO.

I literally said the same thing in another thread. It doesn't make sense that a moving infantry unit has the same sight range when stationary. This should be made standard on all enhanced vision infantry so that you can't BS your way of a swell placed flank.
17 Nov 2021, 22:50 PM
#12
avatar of Flying Dustbin

Posts: 270 | Subs: 1

Scott could have been a mini brummbar to deal with fussie/ober blobs but it's just a barraging tool....


They already have that in the form of the 105 Sherman, but it's tucked away in a commander like so many other tools that the US lacks
18 Nov 2021, 00:20 AM
#13
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1460



They already have that in the form of the 105 Sherman, but it's tucked away in a commander like so many other tools that the US lacks


105 is the medium brummbar. Not quite the brummbar level of armour/firepower but not far.
I'd nerf the accuracy and scatter of the scott barrage and buff the autofire (range 55, AOE...) and increase the fuel price a bit.
I'd buff pak howi barrage ability for better AOE and nerf the scatter of autofire.

But those changes are far too unrealistic at this point. Might make some things OP, might not, who knows. All I know is that although USF is the hardest faction to play in teamgames, it's not so bad overall. Most of the fault really is the map design in teamgames.

Port of hamburgers is such an unbalanced map with idiotic placements that screw with the pathfinding (which is bad as it is) and just make one side easier to play.
Winnekendonk, although not a bad map, also favours one side over the other. One of the better maps for axis due to natural stuka barrages and ability to dig in. (and LeFH can easily fire to enemy base with good scatter)
Steppes favours early game axis. Most fights are done long range (brits, okw and ost like this), munition part of the map is cover free (222 and kubel spams like that), etc.

Redball has perfect MG42/34 placements which can deny a lot of fights and slow down advances.
Whiteball is overall the best map, retarded building placements on some parts but eh.

Across the Rheine also favours early MG spam with easy to place arcs and buildings are the key. USF most of the time HAS to go for an early mortar which just screws up everything later on and is not worth it overall.


Of course, not to say that axis is the only one favoured. Soviets and UKF also have heavily favoured maps among those.
The thing with USF is that they have the least favoured maps. Probably the most favoured are open maps but such are poorly designed (eg steppes munition part has absolutely no cover and leads to dead rifles/echelon due to spammy tactics, especially deadly retreats, lots of red).

I really can't think of anything that is stock in the USF roster that can be amplified by the map. If somebody knows something, I'd very much like to hear it for 3v3+ maps.

HQ has generic units. Lieutenant/Officer means having to choose, and also come too late to be map amplified, like the MG. But even if it did come earlier, the arc is not wide enough to be a low micro unit. Ok. One unit that can be map amplified is the AT gun with the wide arc and good tracking, but only vs units up to OST P4 armour.

Not to mention that USF has nothing in stock to counter super heavies. Elefant and Jagd are extremely hard to kill as USF. You need advanced strategies that involve snaring and using 2x jackson with ability.
Even more so is the KT on a decent opponent. Seen tactics that involved just pushing with a KT + 3ober squads with mg34s and 2x raketen (+ some other things). If USF has no rocket arty to QUICKLY deal with the obers, it's gg.
Obers melt rifles. KT melts even more and raketen keep the jacksons at bay. But even if the jacksons are microed perfectly to avoid the raketens and still manage to hit the KT, it's armour is enough to warrant a slow but steady push. Scotts kill too slowly. Pak is even worse against moving blobs. All those little things shout "USF is dead unless the right commander is chosen". Other factions are amplified by their commanders, USF is mostly just patched up (eg mines, burst aoe dmg...). But I still love playing USF. Definitely the most rewarding wins when you go against high level arranged teams and win.



On the other hand, I am not quite sure to which extend this problem really exists. I somehow have the feeling this mostly is a top100 or maybe top200 issue, but please correct me if I am wrong.
what happened to the Calliope meta.


Yes. USF is probably the strongest faction in lower ranks due to the imminent power of rifles. People don't know that grens and volks win long range and lack the skill to properly use sturmpios/pio+mg. Not to mention the horrible micro of such players. If the skills are equal, so to say, axis will win most engagements past the opening skirmishes (especially late).
18 Nov 2021, 03:33 AM
#14
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1738

is relic going to make one last patch?

on topic, just nerf pathfinders sight. they are easily abused for 2v2 in rank 800-1000 games.

scotts got too much changes, and i think it is in a ok spot.
18 Nov 2021, 08:29 AM
#15
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3465 | Subs: 1


Left in the dust.


Judging by Sanders comments over the last time, I assume that the balance team wanted USF to have a late game arty option like the calliope but Relic vetoed that. I think balance team also took the wrong turn when they changed the Scott into a barrage unit instead of auto fire. USF lacks late game wipe options in team games, so they have to opt for higher damage over time.

On the other hand, I am not quite sure to which extend this problem really exists. I somehow have the feeling this mostly is a top100 or maybe top200 issue, but please correct me if I am wrong.
For arranged teams, I think USF will still be viable. The Soviet player or a UKF arty regiment player can make up for a lack of indirect. Or more likely: USF will go back to Calliope doctrines only. The recent patch has not really changed this strategy all that much, I am actually wondering what happened to the Calliope meta.


Arranged teams shouldn't be the alfa and omega for balance. The game shouldn't be balance primarily upon pre-determined combination of players because we see where we are today, with a faction that stand on one leg and people saying its fine because when its combined with another faction providing a second leg they can walk.

Balance team arguments about Relic denying stock Caliope is just an excuse, it didn't stop them to butcher USF late game, make Pakhowi and Scott irrelevant at the same time and later revert some of the nerf on the Scott.

If Path&Scott happen to be nerf again then we would see USF go down where it was before the strat came to light. With a balance team saying a mix between they can't do anything about it and its fine because arranged teams!!
18 Nov 2021, 09:55 AM
#16
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 798

USF is a good faction with strong units but are lacking a crucial unit, which is a non doc rocket arty and that hampers the faction significantly. Hence, why they have to rely on cheese like Scott or pre nerf-pack howie in the past. Relic need to allow the balance team more freedom to allow calliope to be non-doc
18 Nov 2021, 10:13 AM
#17
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 753

Imo the issue with Scott is that it is very affordable + hard to punish. Actual unit is fine lethality wise, but once you start to spam it, while combining it with the particularly braindead spam strat, makes it an issue.
Pretty much you need 2 or more to wipe an unsuspecting squads, while one is enough to pressure team weapons. I find it particularly effective vs OST that can't retreat AT guns and has to get HT to reinforce with grens for the field heals.

At least that's my impression about Scott after 10+ games. Still not my cup of tea, because sherman (can't play without medium tanks) + scott + jackson is very cumbersome. Rocket arty is quite easier for me in this regard, since it does not require that much of a micro effort, thus does not overburden the build for already very micro intensive faction.
Vaz
18 Nov 2021, 11:48 AM
#18
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1145

Is the panzerwerfer not working to stop this strat?
18 Nov 2021, 12:37 PM
#19
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2838 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Nov 2021, 08:29 AMEsxile
Arranged teams shouldn't be the alfa and omega for balance. The game shouldn't be balance primarily upon pre-determined combination of players because we see where we are today, with a faction that stand on one leg and people saying its fine because when its combined with another faction providing a second leg they can walk.

I don't think AT should be the guideline either. My point was more that AT can work around shortcomings, implicitly suggesting that randoms probably won't. I did not clearly type out the latter, so yes, easy to misunderstand my post in that regard.

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Nov 2021, 08:29 AMEsxile
Balance team arguments about Relic denying stock Caliope is just an excuse, it didn't stop them to butcher USF late game, make Pakhowi and Scott irrelevant at the same time and later revert some of the nerf on the Scott.

If Path&Scott happen to be nerf again then we would see USF go down where it was before the strat came to light. With a balance team saying a mix between they can't do anything about it and its fine because arranged teams!!

As I said, I am not happy with all indirect changes that USF got either.

We have to be realistic: There will 99,9% be no larger patch with hotfix for CoH2 anymore. Even this whole discussion about an ever so tiny Pathfinder/Scott nerf might already be futile. There is no sense in saying "if this strategy gets nerfed, then USF needs to get buff X as well". I think what we need to discuss in this thread and where also Sturmpanther's previous thread fell a short is whether this strategy is actually OP or just "cheesy".

If it is OP, it needs nerfing to a "competitive" level, even if the rest of USF were not healthy. Having only one single strategy somehow work does not make the whole faction great, and conversely nerfing that one strategy does not make the faction as a whole shit. It's a one trick pony, and you can only do this trick so often until it gets boring anyway. If this strategy is the only one that is viable, there is no real "USF gameplay" anyway. And again, the nerf should be to a "competitive" level. It should be okay and viable, but not unfair to the Axis factions.

If the strategy is just "cheesy" but not OP, well then it is already in a "good" spot balance wise. Shitty for gameplay, but as I said, there will be no larger patches, maybe not even a smaller one. Hence, no gameplay patches as well. If there are proper counters to the Path+Scott strategy that don't force the opponent to overly invest resources, leave it be.

At some point, USF players will probably get bored of it enough and start playing UKF and SOV, at which point the problem "fixes" itself.
18 Nov 2021, 12:50 PM
#20
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2717 | Subs: 4

Imagine single .30 cal rifles with Garands from rangers :drool:
But to be honest, I'm really struggling with USF in 2v2. Although it could be that my USF suck balls.


USF is almost unplayable in top 200 2v2 without pathfinders, but that is because of the current state of maps in that mode. Nearly all the good riflemen maps like Stadtschutt or Lierneux got patched out and replaced with super open lane maps such as Belgorod, Baku or Wolfheze where riflemen get bullied back to base by A-move LMG grens, volks blobs and Obers.


This trend of replacing urban and/or big sightblocker maps with open lane-camp stalefest maps is going on since years and now you all get the ingame results for it......

Riflemen rely purely on many sightblockers since their smoke nade got removed, and if the map doesn't offer it then they are shit tier garbage.
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